Why Do We Struggle With Recruiting?

TheReal_jayD · November 7, 2017

1 hour ago, AustinFromUNT said:

I would just like to clarify that I don’t think our recruiting is bad. It’s more of a how come we can get guys to commit and then spontaneously decommit so close together. We’ve had 3 decommits this season. I do like all of the guys who have committed so far though.

All three DeCommits we're unrelated to staff or North Texas.

1 Decommitted because of grads will likely be headed to Juco

2 Decommitted due to family reasons.

3 Decommitted because he likes recruiting process more than most

BillySee58 · November 7, 2017

8 hours ago, TheReal_jayD said:

I hate to ruin any bodies "sky is falling" "staff can't recruit" narrative but there is going to be about 40 to 50 recruits in New Denton this weekend. Also North Texas has a new commit he will announce this week. I figure before this weekend. I'll leave it at that. I'm just saying I would rather be 5-1 in conference USA right now and already clinched the bowl bid and not "dominating Recruiting rating". Than be our friends down south and killing it in recruiting and be on the verge of not making a bowl and season falling apart. And another side note. When non recruiter Seth Littrell beat Recruiter Frank Wilson earliers this season. Seth played several and I mean More guys he signed than little Frank. So they can't be that bad. The sky is not falling. Just be paitent folks. This isn't Todd Dodge and isn't Dan Mccarney

I'll add to this by saying there hasn't been enough to say whether or not recruiting has improved since the winning has started. 1 really good commit and 1 decommit. Not much of a sample size.

That being said, this staff still hasn't proven they can win recruiting battles consistently. They've done good being opportunistic, they've done good evaluating, and they've done good developing. Finding a way to win recruiting battles consistently and parlay this on-field momentum into recruiting wins is the last step we need to take to ensure the 2018 class will be playing for division and conference championships in November all throughout their careers like the current team is.

MeanGreenTexan · November 7, 2017

1 hour ago, BillySee58 said:

I'll add to this by saying there hasn't been enough to say whether or not recruiting has improved since the winning has started. 1 really good commit and 1 decommit. Not much of a sample size.

That being said, this staff still hasn't proven they can win recruiting battles consistently. They've done good being opportunistic, they've done good evaluating, and they've done good developing. Finding a way to win recruiting battles consistently and parlay this on-field momentum into recruiting wins is the last step we need to take to ensure the 2018 class will be playing for division and conference championships in November all throughout their careers like the current team is.

Exactly.
With all of the hits Littrell has, just imagine if Tre'Von Bradley stuck rather than bolting to Houston? He'd likely be pushing Darden & Lawrence for PT in the slot. Trumane Bell would have been awesome in the JACK spot. We've gotta win these battles.

BillySee58 · November 7, 2017

4 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Exactly.
With all of the hits Littrell has, just imagine if Tre'Von Bradley stuck rather than bolting to Houston? He'd likely be pushing Darden & Lawrence for PT in the slot. Trumane Bell would have been awesome in the JACK spot. We've gotta win these battles.

Or this guy

http://m.espn.com/ncf/playercard?playerId=4039662&src=desktop

Lost out to Tulsa on him and it went down to the wire.

Look at the state of our programs now. We absolutely should be able to win that battle going forward.

TheReal_jayD · November 7, 2017

1 hour ago, BillySee58 said:

Or this guy

http://m.espn.com/ncf/playercard?playerId=4039662&src=desktop

Lost out to Tulsa on him and it went down to the wire.

Look at the state of our programs now. We absolutely should be able to win that battle going forward.

That was one that hurt. He was committed to Tulsa. UNT offered and he Decommitted days later and was believed to be committing to UNT. Ended up signing with Tulsa I believe it had alot to do with negative Recruiting and high school coaches...

UNTLifer · November 7, 2017

I was curious about Tulsa. Does the small campus, small enrollment win them some kids? A big school with a large enrollment isn't always an enticement to some kids. I would think some athletes coming from smaller communities might prefer a smaller campus. Just a thought.

The one I really wanted this year that has committed to Tulsa is Player out of Midway. Heck of a DT.

Edited November 7, 2017 by UNTLifer

BTG_Fan1 · November 7, 2017

On 11/6/2017 at 8:41 AM, Ben Gooding said:

The next 2 games will have very good attendance. The ODU game was bound to happen. The ingredients were there to have poor attendance, 1) Just got our pants pulled down on the road 2) Halloween 3) ODU. Opponent is a contributing factor into attendance from the SEC to the SunBelt. There just isn't a way around it.

Since Apogee has been built, announced attendance has spiked and stayed relatively steady. So, "Build it and they will come" has actually sort of happened.

Culture change takes years to do. Takes longer to do when the coaching staff doesn't have perceived "swagger".

This is not a recruiting staff. I have said this before, but @Brett Vito wrote a very interesting article when FW and SL were hired about the style of their coaching attacks. Brett highlighted in that article that the staff we hired is a X and O staff and UTSA got a johnny and joe staff. SL has hit on some guys that have impressed me. And there are a few more that were impressive during spring ball and fall camp that are redshirting. We also have that KU slot WR transfer eligible next season as well, he took skinny post 90 yards in the spring game. We can make up ground by getting lower recruited players at the skill positions. We have to get defensive guys and those are harder to develop and harder to mold. As well as OL. These are the positions we have to win recruiting battles. Or defense will have a very long road ahead.

I think the WR you’re talking about from KU was a PWO at KU (and a lake Dallas kid, I believe). wanna say he got here at the start of the fall camp.

outoftown · November 8, 2017

5 hours ago, TheReal_jayD said:

That was one that hurt. He was committed to Tulsa. UNT offered and he Decommitted days later and was believed to be committing to UNT. Ended up signing with Tulsa I believe it had alot to do with negative Recruiting and high school coaches...

I think for that the current winning should be part of the solution. The other part would be if we could finally break that draft drought.

BTG_Fan1 · November 8, 2017

16 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Exactly.
With all of the hits Littrell has, just imagine if Tre'Von Bradley stuck rather than bolting to Houston? He'd likely be pushing Darden & Lawrence for PT in the slot. Trumane Bell would have been awesome in the JACK spot. We've gotta win these battles.

We have 2 kids we have offered at DE that are still uncommitted (and 1 is committing soon) in Brandford-Thomas, and another in Fowler.. Both are ranked higher 3* than Bell.. I personally would love to add Thomas and Fowler because you can not have enough rushers, and because they both have frames that could pack on weight and be a 4-3 end if this staff leaves and we have to switch defenses during the course of the guys time at UNT...

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Also, @TheReal_jayD no idea if you can confirm/address positions. Vada King is a DE (and has been for awhile now) on 24/7 and would be a Jack here (I assume) but I thought his JUCO tape had him playing at an ILB spot (but I could be wrong). I would assume King is the replacement for Wheeler, or he is slotted/projected to play else were.

Wag Tag · November 8, 2017

As stated development is the key! This is why facilities like a new weight room and IPF are so important. These facilities will also help get recruits. We have always been able to do well with skill positions, where we need to improve DL and linebackers. Red shirting could help the area as long as they have the frame.

Withers940 · November 8, 2017

On 11/7/2017 at 9:05 AM, MeanGreenTexan said:

Exactly.
With all of the hits Littrell has, just imagine if Tre'Von Bradley stuck rather than bolting to Houston? He'd likely be pushing Darden & Lawrence for PT in the slot. Trumane Bell would have been awesome in the JACK spot. We've gotta win these battles.

I was looking through his twitter and he is not going to be signing until Feb so I feel like that commitment can be swayed. That or he is waiting for a better option

greenminer · November 8, 2017

On 11/6/2017 at 11:01 PM, TheReal_jayD said:

I'm just saying I would rather be 5-1 in conference USA right now and already clinched the bowl bid and not "dominating Recruiting rating".

Billy is right: let's relish where we are at but realize this has been an opportunistic run for us. We can't count on this happening every year.

Would love to see SL establish better, more consistent recruiting successes and then we can really lay a foundation for the future of this program.

AustinFromUNT · November 16, 2017

With the Vada King decommit, we’ve now had 4 guys decommit. I’m seriously confused. Why wouldn’t you want to play for a winner.

Caw Caw · November 16, 2017

10 minutes ago, AustinFromUNT said:

With the Vada King decommit, we’ve now had 4 guys decommit. I’m seriously confused. Why wouldn’t you want to play for a winner.

This is over simplification. Gage decommitted before the season really even started and damn near right after he committed. Vada King has gotten... half a dozen or more offers since committing, and taken a visit to Ol' Miss.

Just because we have one winning season, doesn't make us a winner. We have a long tradition lacking in stable, consistent success. Yes we've had a turnaround season but that still doesn't make us P5, or hell, that still doesn't make us Boise. Got to trust the staff has a plan and is going to do their job. They have so far. Rome wasn't built in a day and it certainly wasn't rebuilt in a day after being burned to the ground by Portland St.

Ben Gooding · November 17, 2017

3 hours ago, Caw Caw said:

This is over simplification. Gage decommitted before the season really even started and damn near right after he committed. Vada King has gotten... half a dozen or more offers since committing, and taken a visit to Ol' Miss.

Just because we have one winning season, doesn't make us a winner. We have a long tradition lacking in stable, consistent success. Yes we've had a turnaround season but that still doesn't make us P5, or hell, that still doesn't make us Boise. Got to trust the staff has a plan and is going to do their job. They have so far. Rome wasn't built in a day and it certainly wasn't rebuilt in a day after being burned to the ground by Portland St.

I really hope King goes to Ole Miss if he doesn't come here. They are about to be the Walking Dead of SEC-West, right after all of hooker calling' Hugh Freeze's players leave. That program is destined to be pretty awful for years to come. If you ain't with us, you against us.

Caw Caw · November 17, 2017

1 hour ago, Ben Gooding said:

I really hope King goes to Ole Miss if he doesn't come here. They are about to be the Walking Dead of SEC-West, right after all of hooker calling' Hugh Freeze's players leave. That program is destined to be pretty awful for years to come. If you ain't with us, you against us.

Would be nervous that offer wouldn't be good come post-season if it came. No idea who's going to be there. Makes me nervous all of these SEC openings.

shaft · November 17, 2017

Why do we struggle...

Because the struggle is real.

Because this ain’t PlayStation.

Because DFW is the most recruited market in the nation.

BTG_Fan1 · November 17, 2017

Honestly what jobs could be open that it affects UNT recruiting?

Tech, AM, Ark would lead to a chain reaction of kids re-entering the pool..

Dream scenario, Sumlin gets fired opening up the entire AM class.. Martin signs and brings his Manvel crew with that are going to AM with him to denton, and Nixon brings his buddy and multiple visitor DaShawn White the LB

GTWT · November 25, 2017

On ‎11‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 9:18 PM, BillySee58 said:

...our success on the field is not an example of the contrary.

If I understand you correctly, I have to strongly disagree. Success on the field is the only valid criterion for evaluating recruiting. Our recent recruiting classes are winners. That trumps three stars every time.

BillySee58 · November 25, 2017

35 minutes ago, GTWT said:

If I understand you correctly, I have to strongly disagree. Success on the field is the only valid criterion for evaluating recruiting. Our recent recruiting classes are winners. That trumps three stars every time.

Was Brelan Chancellor an example of good recruiting because he became an all-conference player? No. Is Mason Fine an example of good recruiting because he has become a great player? No.

Both had no other offers. They are examples of good evaluating and good player development. If you or I were the head coaches at North Texas at the time, we could have signed them because we were their only FBS option. It didn't take good recruiting to get them here. It just took an offer.

I see people continuously making the point that recruiting can't be judged until those players have chances to prove themselves in college. That's not true. We see how good a job our coaches due at recruiting instantly, by seeing how good they are at recruiting players to come here who have other options.

We wait to see how the players turn out, how good the coaches are at evaluating, and how good they are at developing their players. But we see if we are outrecruiting teams instantly, before they ever play a snap.

If you understood my post, you would understand that I am not slandering the staff and I am saying that they have done a good job evaluating players and a very good job of being opportunistic and snatching players who once held multiple FBS offers right before signing days when those offers are no longer active. But they have not fared well in head to head recruiting battles and that's just the truth. They have overcome it for the reasons I mentioned.

I hope it improves so that we can really start having a perfect mix of top-notch recruits, good cases of evaluations, players left at the end with dried up offers, and player development. Then we can maintain our success year in and year out, which we can have here.

GOMG2013 · November 25, 2017

1 hour ago, BillySee58 said:

Both had no other offers. They are examples of good evaluating and good player development. If you or I were the head coaches at North Texas at the time, we could have signed them because we were their only FBS option. It didn't take good recruiting to get them here. It just took an offer.

I see people continuously making the point that recruiting can't be judged until those players have chances to prove themselves in college. That's not true. We see how good a job our coaches due at recruiting instantly, by seeing how good they are at recruiting players to come here who have other options.

We wait to see how the players turn out, how good the coaches are at evaluating, and how good they are at developing their players. But we see if we are outrecruiting teams instantly, before they ever play a snap.

Spot on. Couldn't be said any better. Not sure why there's down votes. Recruiting is collecting talent. Just because a team is winning or getting better does not mean recruiting has improved.

Evaluating what you have and development has improved at UNT...especially at QB.

Fine is a nice QB and we are having a good season, but to take the next step and remain consistent yearly, recruiting has to improve.

GTWT · November 25, 2017

The down-votes weren't from me. I do, however, disagree with you. If UNT beats out UT, A&M, & Alabama for a player, and he never contributes to success on the field, he's a poor recruit. If UNT beats out SFA, Lamar, & Liberty for a player who helps us win, he's a great recruit.

Caw Caw · November 25, 2017

5 minutes ago, GTWT said:

The down-votes weren't from me. I do, however, disagree with you. If UNT beats out UT, A&M, & Alabama for a player, and he never contributes to success on the field, he's a poor recruit. If UNT beats out SFA, Lamar, & Liberty for a player who helps us win, he's a great recruit.

But Billy isn't evaluating the recruit... he is evaluating the recruiting... very different. Yes obviously contributors matter in the long run but recruiting is skill coaches have. Like a madden player is evaluated on speed, quickness, hands, etc. Coaches ability to outsell other coaches is meaningful. If you're going to credit guys who had no other offers but did outstanding, you have to evaluate how well the offers you extended who went elsewhere did.

BillySee58 · November 25, 2017

2 hours ago, GTWT said:

The down-votes weren't from me. I do, however, disagree with you. If UNT beats out UT, A&M, & Alabama for a player, and he never contributes to success on the field, he's a poor recruit.

You're mixing up the coaches job of recruiting and the players' results. That player would end up being a poor signing. But it would have taken tremendous recruiting to get him. You can't deny that it would take great recruiting to get a student-athlete to choose UNT over UT, A&M, and Alabama.

Imagine getting a player to choose those schools over us while they legitimately wanted him and were trying to get him too. Then, that player gets kicked off the team before he ever contributes. You can't just retoractively say "well, it wasn't such a great job to get him to come here after all since it didn't work out."

Yes it was! What happened with that player doesn't change the fact of the recruiting ability displayed to get him.

Quote

If UNT beats out SFA, Lamar, & Liberty for a player who helps us win, he's a great recruit.

Then that's a great job of evaluating and developing by the coaches. That's not a great job of recruiting just because he ended up being a good player. You or I could sign a kid like that.

Do you think a P5 school evaluating the job Littrell did here is going to look at Mason Fine's career and say "gee, that Fine kid sure showed that Littrell is an amazing recruiter!"

No. They're going to see that and realize that he successfully evaluated and offered Fine when no other D1 coach did, and did a great job developing him. Fine helps show Littrell to be more than adequate in those areas, but does not lend credence to him being a good head-to-head recruiter.

I get what you're saying. You're trying to say that a recruiting class and the individual players in it should only be judged by their results in college. And the coaching staff should be measured by how good their signees turned out, and not who they beat them out for before signing day. I COMPLETELY agree with that.

However, you absolutely can tell how good a job our coaches are doing at recruiting and convincing kids to choose us over and other schools on signing day. Like I said, Littrell and his staff have been able to overcome it by winning just enough recruiting battles for guys like Guyton, hitting on their evaluations like Fine, and scooping up guys at the end of the cycle who saw their offers dry up like Nic Smith and Rico Bussey, and developing their players tremendously.