DRC: Sunday column: It' time to embrace Dickey for accomplishments

[Monkeypox]

Just now, GTWT said:

Your 'statistics' included the following:

 

 

Only when you asked for a subjective response by asking me whose "accomplishments" I valued more.

 I posted about winning percentage after you stated that replacement #2 wasn't better than Dickey. Of course, by the objective measure of WINNING GAMES, he actually was. That doesn't mean I'd put any Dan McCarney statues up, either. 

[Green Lantern]

I'd like to go on record that I'm glad that were having DD back on campus and hosting a reunion for some very special players during that era.  I've stated on here many times that DD's run of conference titles and bowl games are largely the reason that sparked my interest in the athletics program at North Texas and turned me into a going on two decade supporter of the program.  

The first time I walked down Canal St. and turned onto Bourbon to see a sea of my fellow Mean Green fans in another city supporting our team when we took on Colorado State in our first bowl game during that run was my "holy shit, North Texas can be a real football program" moment. We basically took the Fouts Field average attendance of the day and relocated it to New Orleans for a few days every year. The shared experience, friendships made on these trips, along with the unbelievable memories have lasted me all these years and will continue.  My friends from school that experienced all this with me have become MGC members, season ticket/club level holders in football, travel to away game, host pre-game tailgates for fans at home game ect.  With our kids now, that group has ballooned to about 25 or so.

I also worked on campus for a number of years in events management as a student and often got to interact with DD before and after athletics related functions.  As maddening as some of his public comments could be at times, as @Cerebushas pointed out over the years, he could be super personable, engaging, funny and accommodating in person.  I always thought it was cool that he would take time out to talk football with the spare student employee (me) just like he would with any of our donors and administrators. 

Watching some of the best players from his era like Kennedy, Cobbs, Galbreath, Quinn, Buckles, Jones, Awasom, Kassell, Spencer, Jamario just to name a few, was a real treat.  Kennedy and Jamario especially.  I've still never seen players more dynamic than those two in my time following the program.  Got to watch them thanks to DD.

Dickey and his teams also gave us something important as a fan base during that era . Hope as a program.  That we could build on a foundation of success and take our program up the ladder.  That belief that we can achieve more as a program, at least for me, has sustained me for the entire duration that I've been a fan (coming up on 20 years) even when it's been really tough to hang on at times.

TL:DR Version - I like Coach Dickey and enjoyed watching his teams. In my eyes hindsight has been kind to his tenure. We could have done and certainly did worse than DD. 

I hope he enjoys his visit back to campus.  I truly think he'll be floored with the athletics program and facilities progress since his departure.  Appreciate his time here, flaws and all.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Green Lantern

[Mike Jackson]

I don’t understand the hate for Dickey.  Without that run of SBC titles while was in college, I might be a uninterested alumni today.  What had program won at the FBS/1A level before he got here?  Some winning seasons 1973 and earlier?  The parents of some of the kids he recruited were in elementary school when UNT had last had a sustained succeful Div 1A run.  

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

@Green Lantern Everything you said I feel too. Exactly the same. I say the same thing to anyone that question why the hell I am a Mean Green diehard. I even list off the players names that I loved, which obviously they have never heard of. Neon Don McGee .. loved that guy! 

But this is a fan site where all of this is talked in the confines of our die-hard-ness.  So everything should be taken in that context of fandom. 

His SBC dominating teams only beat THREE teams that had a winning record... over four years! That is incredible.

 

[Cr1028]

8 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

I don’t understand the hate for Dickey.  Without that run of SBC titles while was in college, I might be a uninterested alumni today.  What had program won at the FBS/1A level before he got here?  Some winning seasons 1973 and earlier?  The parents of some of the kids he recruited were in elementary school when UNT had last had a sustained succeful Div 1A run.  

You mean we hadn’t won much at the D1A level in the 3 years before Dickey arrived or the decade and a half before that where we weren’t even playing D1A football?

[VideoEagle]

18 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

It's kind of fun to walk down memory lane.

How bad was the SBC during our run?

2001: NONE of our SBC opponents had a winning record

2002: ONE had a winning record - NMSU 7-5

2003: NONE had a winning record

2004: NONE had a winning record.

You missed a few. MTSU was 8-3 in 2001. You got NMSU at 7-5 in 2002. In 2004, Troy was 7-5 overall and 4-2 in the Belt but we didn't play them that year. 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Just now, VideoEagle said:

You missed a few. MTSU was 8-3 in 2001. You got NMSU at 7-5 in 2002. In 2004, Troy was 7-5 overall and 4-2 in the Belt but we didn't play them that year. 

Ah yes, i missed MTSU. Thanks.

I didn't include Troy since we didn't play them...

[GrandGreen]

4 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

So we go into 2004, where we lose badly to everyone that is not in the SBC, but defeat all 7 of those teams, winning the SBC again, before getting annihilated by USM. All that did was confirm to the rest of the world that winning the SBC was not exactly a huge accomplishment worthy of even interviewing the head coach at the top program in that conference. 

I actually think this year may have been DD best NT coaching job.  Most of the talent was gone from his one great class and I was amazed that team went undefeated in conference.  

23 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

It's kind of fun to walk down memory lane.

How bad was the SBC during our run?

2001: NONE of our SBC opponents had a winning record

2002: ONE had a winning record - NMSU 7-5

2003: NONE had a winning record

2004: NONE had a winning record.

There were no juggernauts in the Belt, but there were other winning teams.

2001 sexy MTSU 8-3

2004  Troy 7-5

 

[Monkeypox]

43 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

I don’t understand the hate for Dickey.  Without that run of SBC titles while was in college, I might be a uninterested alumni today.  What had program won at the FBS/1A level before he got here?  Some winning seasons 1973 and earlier?  The parents of some of the kids he recruited were in elementary school when UNT had last had a sustained succeful Div 1A run.  

I don't hate Dickey. I just don't believe he was a very good football coach. Of all the coaches here since I started school (1994), he has the 2nd worst win percentage. Only Todd Dodge was worse.

The previous two years, Simon's teams went 9-13 (5-5 vs Big West). DD went 8-33 in the following 3 years (5-11 vs Big West). Simon beat Texas Tech 30-27 in Lubbock in 1997. Dickey lost to them at home 30-0 in 1998.

So it's not really a question of "when he got here." It's a "when the Sun Belt* was formed." 

From 2006-2010, Blakeney (Troy) went 32-5 vs the Belt.

Since taking over 4 seasons ago, Blake Anderson is 24-4 against the Belt at Arkansas State (including 19 of their last 20). 

*for football

 

[greenminer]

3 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

Which dog crap would you rather eat?

Which terminal disease would you rather have?

We've had 3 coaches with losing tenures at UNT. I don't feel the need so praise losing coaches at all. They didn't do the job and got fired. I just don't consider sub-40% winning percentages accomplishments.

I think lost in all this back-and-forth is the context of DD's run.  If that guy had the resources that we afford SL...

[GrandGreen]

6 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

I don't hate Dickey. I just don't believe he was a very good football coach. Of all the coaches here since I started school (1994), he has the 2nd worst win percentage. Only Todd Dodge was worse.

The previous two years, Simon's teams went 9-13 (5-5 vs Big West). DD went 8-33 in the following 3 years (5-11 vs Big West). Simon beat Texas Tech 30-27 in Lubbock in 1997. Dickey lost to them at home 30-0 in 1998.

So it's not really a question of "when he got here." It's a "when the Sun Belt* was formed." 

From 2006-2010, Blakeney (Troy) went 32-5 vs the Belt.

Since taking over 4 seasons ago, Blake Anderson is 24-4 against the Belt at Arkansas State (including 19 of their last 20). 

*for football

 

Funny, me defending Dickey.   But neither of your examples equals NT 27-1 four year record, and 27 straight victories.  If you paid attention you know why Troy dominated, a strategy that operated at best on rules loopholes and probably worse.  Arkansas State has frankly build a program that should dominate the Belt.   In the last reported athletic budget, Arkansas State' budget was about $10,000,000 above NT's.  

 

[UNTLifer]

I miss the sexy MUTS and their pajama wearing coach, Andy Mac.  Oh, and don't forget Hicks 4 Heisman....until he got tkred of getting hammered by Booger, Spencer, etc...

[shaft]

DD was great!  Lots of people on this board still carry a grudge because he got their frat kicked off campus or because he called them an asshole because they thought their $199 donation entitled the unlimited access.

DD’s fault was not upgrading the coaching staff when he could have.

Edited November 10, 2017 by shaft

[Monkeypox]

16 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Funny, me defending Dickey.   But neither of your examples equals NT 27-1 four year record, and 27 straight victories.  If you paid attention you know why Troy dominated, a strategy that operated at best on rules loopholes and probably worse.  Arkansas State has frankly build a program that should dominate the Belt.   In the last reported athletic budget, Arkansas State' budget was about $10,000,000 above NT's.  

 

Maybe they don't equal 27-1 or 27 straight victories, but Dickey's didn't either.  It's such an amazing accomplishment that multiple people in this thread haven't even gotten the number right. But the point is.... beating up on the Sun Belt isn't amazing, especially if you can't win any other games. People act like it's some great accomplishment, but it's really just a statistical anomaly. Also, as has been pointed out, the Belt didn't have a lot of teams with winning records back then. These days, they do. So I'm actually more impressed with Arkansas State at this point. Perhaps the reason their budget has grown is that they've managed to have SUSTAINED success, something that eluded DD, as he finished going 4-10 against the Belt, for an overall 29-11. Arky State has gone 44-7 against the Belt since 2011.

I started out thinking DD was properly regarded, but now I'm starting to think he's pretty firmly in the overrated category. I know this board has a weird fascination for ex's, but I don't think in sports history I've ever seen a coach with a worse record so lauded by a fan base.

[FirefightnRick]

6 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

Replacement 2 had a higher winning percentage than DD.

He never faced an OOC schedule that DD did, nor did he have to coach in and recruit to Fouts.

DD may have had the toughest G5 OOC schedule in a 9 year span than any other coach since?

 

Rick

Edited November 9, 2017 by FirefightnRick

[Got5onIt]

How many times did DD go into one of the nations top 5 programs every year to start the season? Didn’t NT play the previous year’s National Champion 3 years in a row under DD?  RV set up DD for a machete to the nuts every year he was here...

[SilverEagle]

5 hours ago, greenminer said:

I think lost in all this back-and-forth is the context of DD's run.  If that guy had the resources that we afford SL...

You know, I have always felt the same about Corky Nelson and how well he might have done if he had been given the same budget that DD worked with......modest as it was. 

During his tenure,  Coach Nelson with his 1-AA budget ( and 20 fewer ships), beat the following D-1 schools,  New Mexico, New Mexico State, Kansas State, TCU, Texas Tech (after spotting them 21 points the first half), Rice, and SMU. Many argue that he also really beat Texas in 88.  

And one of the most impressive years was his second year (83) when he won the Southland conference and the only time the team flew to any game was the last game when they played Nevada in the 1-AA playoffs.  That mean't that 1983 started with a home win against West Texas, then a bus ride and a close loss (13-20) to Okla. St., then a home win against NMSU, then a bus ride to Texas and a 6-26 loss, then a bus ride to New Mexico where they won 18-8, then a bus ride to Ark St. where they won 17-0, and finally a bus ride to McNeese St. where they won. 

And NOT ONCE did he ever get up in front of a group of alumni the night before a game with Texas (or anyone for that matter) and say anything like this...."I hope that when Dr. B looks up at the scoreboard at the end of the game tomorrow she remembers how much we are getting paid for this game". 

[TIgreen01]

Here's the thing about the conference win streak.  It got us NATIONAL attention.  Period.

Whether we beat up on crappy teams or not, it was talked about.  People knew about North Texas football.

I remember reading online posts about how to hack NCAA football so that North Texas wouldn't just ascend to the national championship every year.  I remember running into people in the store while I was loading up on tailgate food  clear across the metroplex on gamedays who had excited looks on their faces that they were also going to head to Denton after they got off work.  

The one thing that era brought about was an expectation that if we had a home game in Denton we were going to have fun and win.  We had hope, even though we had a coach who kept bashing the school every chance he got.  It was a weird confluence that didn't make a lot of sense until it did....and the rug was suddenly pulled out.

[FirefightnRick]

6 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

You know, I have always felt the same about Corky Nelson and how well he might have done if he had been given the same budget that DD worked with......modest as it was. 

During his tenure,  Coach Nelson with his 1-AA budget ( and 20 fewer ships), beat the following D-1 schools,  New Mexico, New Mexico State, Kansas State, TCU, Texas Tech (after spotting them 21 points the first half), Rice, and SMU. Many argue that he also really beat Texas in 88.  

And one of the most impressive years was his second year (83) when he won the Southland conference and the only time the team flew to any game was the last game when they played Nevada in the 1-AA playoffs.  That mean't that 1983 started with a home win against West Texas, then a bus ride and a close loss (13-20) to Okla. St., then a home win against NMSU, then a bus ride to Texas and a 6-26 loss, then a bus ride to New Mexico where they won 18-8, then a bus ride to Ark St. where they won 17-0, and finally a bus ride to McNeese St. where they won. 

And NOT ONCE did he ever get up in front of a group of alumni the night before a game with Texas (or anyone for that matter) and say anything like this...."I hope that when Dr. B looks up at the scoreboard at the end of the game tomorrow she remembers how much we are getting paid for this game". 

There you go.  

RV probably ahares the blame for DD's eventual sour attitude in the 2000's.  But most forget DD's comments the day he was hired and introduced by Craig Helwig.  

Wether he was validated or not to complain about the scheduling on his first day on the job, he let it be known RIGHT AWAY that he didn't like the schedule with a sarcastic statement that went something like...

...."and I'm excited to announce that we are going to have a fundraiser right away.  The first one will be in Norman Oklahoma, then Lubbock Texas then Phoenix Arizona and then College Station Texas".....

Everyone at first nervously  laughed but it was an immediate insight into how much he hated our situation.

 

Rick

[untjim1995]

2 hours ago, FirefightnRick said:

There you go.  

RV probably ahares the blame for DD's eventual sour attitude in the 2000's.  But most forget DD's comments the day he was hired and introduced by Craig Helwig.  

Wether he was validated or not to complain about the scheduling on his first day on the job, he let it be known RIGHT AWAY that he didn't like the schedule with a sarcastic statement that went something like...

...."and I'm excited to announce that we are going to have a fundraiser right away.  The first one will be in Norman Oklahoma, then Lubbock Texas then Phoenix Arizona and then College Station Texas".....

Everyone at first nervously  laughed but it was an immediate insight into how much he hated our situation.

 

Rick

It was sad that was the situation, but what else could be done? Helwig was bad, real bad, but he had no help administratively above him to get extra funding, plus the alumni were still completely run off by the I-aa debacle. I give Helwig credit for one thing only that RV never got--we could use our DFW location to get games here or in Irving against bigger programs. Under Helwig, we played Kansas, Oregon State, Army, UH, Texas Tech, Texas A&M, UNLV, TCU, and Baylor in Denton or Irving over 6 years. Under RV, in 15 years, we played Baylor, Tulsa, SMU, La Tech, Navy, Ohio, Army, Rice, Kansas State, Houston, Indiana, Idaho, and Ball State for OOC games here. And Helwig didn't have Apogee for 5 seasons to schedule to...

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by untjim1995

[Shibby]

We can make this pretty simple. If you have questions or comments about our team or our coach, most of us will be out there on Saturday at the end of the 1st Quarter. We will be standing right there on the field we never got to play on but like to think we helped contribute to building. We can address OOC schedules, budget issues, "us vs. them mentality", our "wildness" off the field, etc. 

I get this is a forum but it does get read. It was being read even back when we were still playing so I'm sure that our current players and more recent grads look at it as well. So do potential recruits. Hank Dickenson is working his ass off right now to get former athletes to reconnect to the University and what you are doing here when being negative is not helping. 

If you want our program to continue to grow, stop contributing to the divide between fans and former players/coaches. There is a lot of exciting stuff going on with North Texas Athletics. Embrace the past, the current and the future. More importantly help create a culture that welcomes all to support the Mean Green. 

Successful programs have great coaches, players, facilities, rivalries, recruiting, fan bases, alumni programs, fundraising and history among other things. I think you can all agree that we are about as close to success in these things as we have ever been but have a long way to go. The question is, are you going to support that when most of us are back in Denton this weekend or hold on to your “statistics” and your grudge?

[GrandGreen]

14 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

Maybe they don't equal 27-1 or 27 straight victories, but Dickey's didn't either.  It's such an amazing accomplishment that multiple people in this thread haven't even gotten the number right. But the point is.... beating up on the Sun Belt isn't amazing, especially if you can't win any other games. People act like it's some great accomplishment, but it's really just a statistical anomaly. Also, as has been pointed out, the Belt didn't have a lot of teams with winning records back then. These days, they do. So I'm actually more impressed with Arkansas State at this point. Perhaps the reason their budget has grown is that they've managed to have SUSTAINED success, something that eluded DD, as he finished going 4-10 against the Belt, for an overall 29-11. Arky State has gone 44-7 against the Belt since 2011.

I started out thinking DD was properly regarded, but now I'm starting to think he's pretty firmly in the overrated category. I know this board has a weird fascination for ex's, but I don't think in sports history I've ever seen a coach with a worse record so lauded by a fan base.

What numbers are not right?  You were commenting on Sun Belt winning, not sure how you got confused over someone else commenting on your post about what kind of winning streak is being discussed.  

Go ahead and downplay that 27 straight (conference) winning streak.  There have been very few of those against any kind of competition.  Wonder, why NT did not have those kinds of numbers while in the FCS division. Statistical anomaly, what does that mean?   Was Oklahoma winning streak of 47 in the 50's, also an statistical anomaly because no one could beat them?

I have expressed my opinion too many times on this board that I think putting DD in the HOF is ridiculous.   His overall record was not worthy and his conduct to me was indefensible.  However, I do take issue with people like you who dismiss the (conference) winning streak as being inconsequential because of the conference it was obtained in.   

[Monkeypox]

Dickey didn't win 27. He won 26 in a row. Went 29-11 against the Sun Belt, overall. Arkansas State is 44-7 against the Belt in recent years. If our own fans don't remember, then I think that says something about its lasting impact on the greater college football landscape.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Monkeypox

[GrandGreen]

2 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

Dickey didn't win 27. He won 26 in a row. Went 29-11 against the Sun Belt, overall. Arkansas State is 44-7 against the Belt in recent years. If our own fans don't remember, then I think that says something about its lasting impact on the greater college football landscape.

Yes, that is a glaring error, it surely eliminates any points I have made on the topic.   We should all remember the ASU records which you seem to think pertinent enough that you continue to repeat it.   

Being you seem to want to repeat everything.  DD's success for four years was predicated on one recruiting class that included 7 state one hundred players.   Players including in that class were  Brandon Kennedy, Jonas Bucles, Nick Zuniga, Chris Hurd, Craig Jones, Casey Taylor, Andy Brewster, Cody Spencer and Bobby Garner.   

That is a boatload of talent by NT standards.  I contribute ( I hope I get this right, 26 game Belt win streak) more as a result of a great group of athletics than a weak conference.  

[Monkeypox]

It was both. If what you said were the case alone, he would have won more out of conference during that span.  

If you're making an argument that a particular number matters, but you don't know that number, it certainly hurts the foundation of your argument. Arky State's record in that particular conference certainly relates as it compares to DD's. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Monkeypox