DRC: Sunday column: It' time to embrace Dickey for accomplishments

[GrandGreen]

2 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Not in college football.  

 

First I have ever heard of Fry being under the scholarship limit while at NT.   Not saying that is false, I just have never heard of that and would like to see it substantiated.  

 

Simon has a murderous year his first year, having to play six P5 teams.   His second and third years he play seven combined, or about 3.5 P5 teams a year.  Dickey average 4 P5 teams a year his first three years.    They both had an enormous challenge to face.     Especially when you compare it to SL, who has had to face 1 P5 a year.   So no, I think they both had it pretty bad, and I don't think Simon had it "a lot worse" than Dickey.  

 

That's not correct.  Overall FB budget was slightly over average.  Recruiting budget was right at average.  However our coaching budget was very low.  Our assistant pool was in the lower 1/3 of the league when DD won those conference championships, which is why DD constantly had to spend time replacing poached coaches.

I went on a lot of SBC roadtrips and facilities wise we where buried by several of them.  I remember staring in blank amazement at what MTSU had built.  Schools like ULL and ArkSt may not have had everything, but they had much better weight rooms, training rooms, and meeting rooms.  

So compared to SBC we where around average, not high on the hog.  

If you read my posts, you will see I continually give DD credit for his four year run in the Belt.  That has nothing to do with his conduct while doing it.  

I also know that you are going to defend Dickey to the end.  You are not going to change my mind or I yours. 

Simon played the beginning of a Helwig schedule made to finance the team, and DD got the end of it. Simon as a whole had a  lot tougher schedule, but yet didn't complain about it in public.   The Big West was a much tougher conference than the Belt plus the awful travel involved. Both knew what the schedule looked like when they accepted the job.  

As far as budgets, NT was reported at the top at the beginning of the Belt.  If you have an easy source for this type of data, share it.  Facilities have little to do with the Budget.  NT facilities were bad and I doubt that was a secret.   I agree with you to the extent that most of the Belt continued to build resources and NT's advantages declined,  and became about average for the league. 

As far as substantiating anything, that goes both ways.  There is no comparison between Fry and Dickeys approach to much less than needed resources.  One was outwardly positive and parlayed it into a much better opportunity and the other bitched and moaned.  

 

 

[KingDL1]

On 11/6/2017 at 7:52 AM, VideoEagle said:

Secondly, during the first several years, the SBC only had seven football members. Of those seven, three never were D1AA/FCS - ULaLa (formerly Southwestern Louisiana), New Mexico State and Utah State. (I'm not certain about USU, but I can't find them listed in a 1AA conference.) Arkansas State has a three year head start as a full D1/FBS member over us. Middle, Idaho and NT moved up at roughly the same time. So four of the seven teams had been D1A significantly longer and the other two were roughly equal in D1A experience. During the conference run, NT was beating more experienced or equal teams, not teams that we should have had a scholarship number advantage over. 

These teams were doing horrible many did not have a winning record for years has nothing to do when they became D1a they just sucked and many in the Belt had no resources just poor and crappy teams 

On 11/6/2017 at 7:52 AM, VideoEagle said:

Thirdly, if a the conference win streak is "no big deal" as some claim, why hasn't anyone else done it? In ANY conference? Ever. 

How long was this streak three and half seasons across  what 24 games (??), it was more of perfect timing than a miracle . And if I could figure how to look it up I can tell its been done many times, Teams go on win streaks that last years which would indicate they had to beat their conference mates also. I would say that if teams have longer winning streaks in years alone the odds are say that conference win streaks are a little easier to come by. 

After defeating the Mutts in 2001 the game the streak started through the bowl years and after the mutts we did not beat a D1a school with a wining record. Many of our conference mates were lucky to have 3-9 records I do mean they sucked. The only winning record team we after was Cincinnati 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_NCAA_Division_I_football_winning_streaks

I have not figured out how to look up conference win streaks  

[GTWT]

It's amazing how long grudges are held.  And why?  Because DD didn't have a great relationship with RV (a person many of these same DD-haters loathed) & because he hurt the delicate sensitivities of a few $100-a-year supporters.

[VideoEagle]

1 hour ago, KingDL1 said:

 

How long was this streak three and half seasons across  what 24 games (??), it was more of perfect timing than a miracle . And if I could figure how to look it up I can tell its been done many times, Teams go on win streaks that last years which would indicate they had to beat their conference mates also. I would say that if teams have longer winning streaks in years alone the odds are say that conference win streaks are a little easier to come by. 

After defeating the Mutts in 2001 the game the streak started through the bowl years and after the mutts we did not beat a D1a school with a wining record. Many of our conference mates were lucky to have 3-9 records I do mean they sucked. The only winning record team we after was Cincinnati 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_NCAA_Division_I_football_winning_streaks

I have not figured out how to look up conference win streaks  

So, just to be clear, you can't show me a case where any other college football teams have gone conference winning streaks of this length. None, nada, no one. Ever. 

Except North Texas. And the Morning News, Startlegram and other sources talked about how amazing the streak was before each of our last two SBC bowl games.

[Mo Green]

I can remember Ramon F calling out a fan in front of the everyone- the dysfunction between Dickie-boy and the AD- the downplaying of our school by the football coaches. Bobby Ray flaunting his relationship with the hc and getting in rv's face.

Only at UNT do we need to make this dysfunction glorified in our athletic dept.

By the way, do you know the only coach that had the gumption to apologize to rv after the firing of Dickie-boy for not recruiting better?

 

[KingDL1]

4 hours ago, VideoEagle said:

So, just to be clear, you can't show me a case where any other college football teams have gone conference winning streaks of this length. None, nada, no one. Ever. 

Except North Texas. And the Morning News, Startlegram and other sources talked about how amazing the streak was before each of our last two SBC bowl games.

Can you read? Yes I can clearly in on the list I am so showing on the link provided where OK did not lose a game period for over 4 years would cover their conference. And win streaks where you do not lose a game period are harder to come by.  

I did not hate Dickey he did some good things, but he fell down on the job and needed to be gone. But to think just winning one 1 bowl out of 4 was also disappointing.

https://247sports.com/college/alabama/Article/Alabama-football-has-impressive-winning-records-in-SEC-football-105465991

This stat is allusive but in the SEC it has happened several times, twice to 28 straight, once to 27, and once to 26. That is just one conference and seems like a tough one to do it in. 

It also ended a 26-game winning streak, which was second longest in Southeastern Conference history. Coach Nick Saban’s Crimson Tide had won the final 12 games of the 2015 season in winning the College Football Playoff for the national title, and the first 14 games of 2016. The SEC record is 28 consecutive wins, first set by the Paul Bryant teams of 1978-80. Bama won the last nine games of 1978 (including winning the national championship with a win over Penn State in the Sugar Bowl), won all of its games in 1979 (winning another national title with a Sugar Bowl win over Arkansas), and the first seven games of 1980. The 1991-93 teams of Coach Gene Stallings matched that 28-game winning streak by winning the final 10 games of 1991, going undefeated and winning the national championship with a Sugar Bowl win over Miami in 1992, and won the first five games of 1993.

Alabama also had a 20-game winning streak in the Wallace Wade era 1924-26, a 19-game winning streak under Saban 2009-10, and a 19-game winning streak under Bryant 1961-62.

[untcampbell]

Only at UNT do we need to make this dysfunction glorified in our athletic dept.

Mo, love you man. But EVERY athletic department has similar dysfunction, and every department glorifies it.

You just see the sausage being made here because you are closer to it. The ingredients in NT's best sausage are ego, personality, testosterone and money (and the lack of it), mixed in with a little North Texas inferiority complex that spices things up a bit (you don't likely get that ingredient at Alabama, for example). I am sure others will know more of the recipe's ingredients than I, but that gets us started.

GMG

[greenminer]

@KingDL1  The way I read the descriptions of the SEC records, it sounds like it is including OOC games.  So, undefeated streaks (conferece and OOC) held by SEC teams.

I don't really care much about this debate, but I do speculate conference mates know you much more intimately than OOC** and that makes Dickey's run stand alone if nothing else.

**unless you're Army, then you get to play us 3, possibly 4 times in two seasons.

Edited November 8, 2017 by greenminer

[Got5onIt]

The Buick will always have a special place in my heart. I became a NT fan during his tenure at HC. Now, I definitely felt like his time had come but that still doesn’t discount what he did for the program. 

[VideoEagle]

3 hours ago, KingDL1 said:

Can you read? Yes I can clearly in on the list I am so showing on the link provided where OK did not lose a game period for over 4 years would cover their conference. And win streaks where you do not lose a game period are harder to come by.  

Yes I can read. Here's the relevant sentence in what I actually read, 

Quote

I have not figured out how to look up conference win streaks  

In the rest of the post you talked about win streaks that must include conference games and therefore they must be longer. 

I did a little digging on a few of the games you cite in your second post. Let's start with Alabama's streak in '15-'16. They won 26 games in a row, but only won 17 conference games in a row. Alabama's streak in '91-93 - they won 26 in a row, but only won 19 conference games. Alabama '78-'80 - 28 games with 16 conference wins. 

From you Wikipedia winning streak list, I looked at the Miami win streak 34 game streak from 2000 - 2002. Their conference wins actually went till 2003 when they lost to Virginia Tech ending a 24 game winning streak

It is a major pain to research conference wins as you have to find the games played for each year and check which games were conference games. That's much more difficult for most of the streaks on the Wikipedia list. After the OU streak, a number of the streaks are from before the rules of football were set in 1920 or 22. I tried to check Toledo's 35 game streak for conference games but couldn't find who they played. I wish the College Football Data Warehouse site was working, but it's not. 

I did find one school that did better than NT's 26 consecutive conference wins - Oklahoma. The Sooners had a conference win streak that went from 1953 into 1959! Oklahoma State wasn't a conference member through most of that so they had six conference wins a season for a conference win streak of 34. 

So, Oklahoma did have a longer conference winning streak during the longest winning streak in NCAA history. Oklahoma and North Texas. Not Alabama. Not Miami. 

Still think the 26 conference wins is just luck?

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by VideoEagle

[GTWT]

You should be happy DD was fired if you think he was replaced by someone better.  That certainly wasn't true for replacements 1 & 2.  The success of replacement 3 is yet to be determined.  It is interesting that it's taken UNT over a decade to find a coach that may be better.

[untjim1995]

Dickey got hired by Helwig as a favor to his K-State Dad, who he knew from their time in Manhattan. Nobody else got interviewed. Simon was fired, Dickey was hired. RV came in and replaced Helwig and he wanted the Dickster fired after we started 0-5 in 2001, losing to ULM, and having garnered an overall record up to that point of 5-22. But Bobby Ray of the BOR stepped in, reminded RV that it would cost a lot of money to get rid of Dickey right now which we didn't have, and told RV to wait it out and remember why he had that job as AD, to stay in budget and not make any negative waves. So RV consented, DD realized that he was probably on borrowed time, and that the schedule ahead was very winnable in 2001 IF we could beat the first place visiting MUTS at Fouts that next week. And that is just what we did. Now, with the schedule ahead including the rest of the SBC teams, we then beat Arkansas State, ULL, NMSU, and Idaho, which got us to 5-5. We then lost our last game at Troy, who was moving up to I-A at the time, but wasn't in the SBC yet, meaning we finished 5-6, but still got to go to the first ever NO Bowl, which we then lost to Colorado State by about 4 TDs or so. Bobby Ray got to keep his buddy on board, getting RV to give him a raise and extension.

Then we went into 2002, where we played the big name OOC teams well (UT, TCU, Arizona) and beat Nicholls State, then beat the other 6 SBC teams, to earn the second NO Bowl and our first winning team in 8 years. We upset Cincy in the NO Bowl and that was when we thought Dickey might be gone soon, since he had a lot coming back in 2003. We then play a great OU team closer than anyone else in the state of Texas that year, and the crushed Baylor at Fouts, before losing at Air Force and Arkansas. We then beat the 6 SBC teams again, plus a Troy team who had moved up to I-A for good and would actually make a bowl. We go back to the NO Bowl and lose a frustrating game to Memphis, who had DeAngelo Williams at RB and we couldn't stop him. It was at this point, with the victories in conference play building up, the Dickster really believed he would get another job. That, however, was not to be, since the rest of the college football world realized something that the diehards here didn't want to realize--the SBC was looked at as the absolute dreg of the college football world and none of those accomplishments mattered to anyone else in an athletic department outside of Denton. He doesn't get an interview anywhere...

So we go into 2004, where we lose badly to everyone that is not in the SBC, but defeat all 7 of those teams, winning the SBC again, before getting annihilated by USM. All that did was confirm to the rest of the world that winning the SBC was not exactly a huge accomplishment worthy of even interviewing the head coach at the top program in that conference. As you can now see, some here consider this the Glory Days of North Texas Football... Even worse for us, because it was obvious that DD thought he would be gone, recruiting really starting dropping off, while we were losing good assistants and keeping bad ones (see Ramon Flanigan). And then, after beating MUTS in the opener in Tennessee in 2005, for the 26th straight SBC win, the wheels fell off at a much hyped game for a Fouts hosted game, as Tulsa, came here and squeaked by us 54-2. We would one game the rest of the season, and all we ever heard was a completely beaten down DD put down the university at every chance possible. 

The next season, with even more give-up in him, we went 3-9, which included a great early season win at home over SMU, which kept them from going to a bowl game, but included more ass-kickings and a DD heart attack, which RV used as a convenient way to get him fired. The Dickster then decides to go out in the last home game by buying about 80 Hutch Black Jerseys and proceeds to have the team wear them at home as if it was a funeral, which it was...as our program's worst uniform of alltime was worn. There were also rumors that a flat screen TV was taken by DD from the athletic offices, which in 2006, when our budget was roughly the equivalent of buying clothes at a flea market (apparently), losing something that cost a few hundred bucks was a tough one to overcome.

So, with that in mind, and a school president in Gretchen Bataille in believed that a football coach shouldn't make more than her, the ever-faithful to his job duties, RV,  hired a high school coach named Todd Dodge to a five year contract that paid less that $300k per year. And when Todd Dodge went 5-31 in his first three seasons on the job, the powers that be reminded RV that we also had to buyout Dickey's contract from a few years ago, which cost us a few hundred grand, so be mindful of that point before you even think about firing Todd Dodge and costing us an extra $300k, so we rewarded TD with that extra year, where he rewarded us with a beautiful 1-6 start before RV fired him, since it was after the fiscal budget had been passed for 2010. But under RV's visionary leadership, which was made even more clear by the fact that a poster/student named UNTFlyer took over a campaign and ran it stealthily to get a new stadium funded and kept RV absolutely as far away as possible, we got clearance to build Apogee Stadium, which would get us out of the toilet bowl known as Fouts by the 2011 season. And, thus, a bright future laid ahead, as we paid the most we ever had for a coach with skins on the wall, a fellow named Dan McCarney, who went everywhere he could in 2010 and 2011 to make the UNT faithful actual believe that greener pastures awaited us...and they did...but then they didn't...but now they do...we think...

And that was how the entirety of the decade of 2001-2010 played at here at UNT. 

[PlummMeanGreen]

34 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

But under RV's visionary leadership, which was made even more clear by the fact that a poster/student named UNTFlyer took over a campaign and ran it stealthily to get a new stadium funded and kept RV absolutely as far away as possible, we got clearance to build Apogee Stadium, which would get us out of the toilet bowl known as Fouts by the 2011 season. And, thus, a bright future laid ahead, as we paid the most we ever had for a coach with skins on the wall, a fellow named Dan McCarney, who went everywhere he could in 2010 and 2011 to make the UNT faithful actual believe that greener pastures awaited us...and they did...but then they didn't...but now they do...we think...

And that was how the entirety of the decade of 2001-2010 played out here at UNT. 

😆😆😆 I love  your style & non-brevity, untjim1995, I really do!

Your post gave me some much-needed comic relief for what has been a crappy week! 👍

Did I ever post about the time the great UNT basketball Bill Blakely was in Hurley's (?)  office & threatened to toss one of his VP's out of a 3'rd floor window?  (Probably some history up there I should always keep to myself).🤔 

GMG!

Edited November 8, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

[PlummMeanGreen]

7 hours ago, Mo Green said:

I can remember Ramon F calling out a fan in front of everyone.

That fan was our dear friend Silver "pick up the damn pace, Green Brigade" Eagle!  

I witnessed that encounter with others & was never prouder of one of our alums for holding his ground.   I looked over at Shanklin who was sitting nearby & grinning like a Cheshire Cat! 

GMG!

Edited November 8, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

[Monkeypox]

2 hours ago, GTWT said:

You should be happy DD was fired if you think he was replaced by someone better.  That certainly wasn't true for replacements 1 & 2.  The success of replacement 3 is yet to be determined.  It is interesting that it's taken UNT over a decade to find a coach that may be better.

Replacement 2 had a higher winning percentage than DD.

[GTWT]

43 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

Replacement 2 had a higher winning percentage than DD.

Whose accomplishments do you value most?

[Monkeypox]

4 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Whose accomplishments do you value most?

Which dog crap would you rather eat?

Which terminal disease would you rather have?

We've had 3 coaches with losing tenures at UNT. I don't feel the need so praise losing coaches at all. They didn't do the job and got fired. I just don't consider sub-40% winning percentages accomplishments.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Monkeypox

[GTWT]

3 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

Which dog crap would you rather eat?

Which terminal disease would you rather have?

We've had 3 coaches with losing tenures at UNT. I don't feel the need so praise losing coaches at all. They didn't do the job and got fired. I just don't consider sub-40% winning percentages accomplishments.

Again:

4 conference championships & bowl appearances

4 conference coach-of-the year awards

2 National rushing title winners

24 game conference winning streak

You don't appreciate those accomplishments?  Sad.

[Monkeypox]

Just now, GTWT said:

Again:

4 conference championships & bowl appearances

4 conference coach-of-the year awards

2 National rushing title winners

24 game conference winning streak

You don't appreciate those accomplishments?  Sad.

1-3 in Bowl games. .396 winning percentage. 13-53 outside of the Sun Belt. 

[GTWT]

Just now, Monkeypox said:

1-3 in Bowl games. .396 winning percentage. 13-53 outside of the Sun Belt. 

I'm not sure why any UNT 'supporter' would try so hard to paint Mean Green history with a negative brush.

[Monkeypox]

Just now, GTWT said:

I'm not sure why any UNT 'supporter' would try so hard to paint Mean Green history with a negative brush.

I'm just listing statistics.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Sure, winning all those SBC games (it was such a terrible starter conference) was great. It got us some Dallas News love... Maybe a local news segment.  We had that magical win against Cinci. 

But man. There we so many bad losses under DD too. 

We just couldn't win out of conference. We would even lose to provision Div-1A teams (USF, Troy, ?). Teams I was pumped to see how we matched up against, we would get destroyed -- Tulsa (multiple), Tulane, etc. 

He also led teams that should have won (against USM and we had Jamario in his prime) and had the most wheels offense game plan ever. One that we got in because everyone else was so bad (5-7) and lost. Memphis, just beat us. 

It's not even close -- his teams only had a winning percentage against the SBC.

Record of (vs conferences)

Conference	All Sites							Home							Away							Neutral
	Win%	gm	W	L	T	Avg.Scr		Win%	gm	W	L	T	Avg.Scr		Win%	gm	W	L	T	Avg.Scr		Win%	gm	W	L	T	Avg.Scr
SunBelt	0.711	38	27	11		25.9	18.3	0.684	19	13	6		30.8	20.2	0.737	19	14	5		21.1	16.5
BigWest	0.312	16	5	11		17.6	26.9	0.444	9	4	5		17.7	20.8	0.167	6	1	5		18.8	36.0	0.000	1	0	1		10.0	28.0
CUSA	0.222	9	2	7		11.6	25.7	0.250	4	1	3		10.0	27.5	0.000	2	0	2		6.5	22.0	0.333	3	1	2		17.0	25.7
BigXII	0.105	19	2	17		11.3	34.9	0.500	2	1	1		29.5	17.0	0.067	15	1	14		9.5	37.2	0.000	2	0	2		7.0	36.0
MAC	0.000	1	0	1		13.0	33.0								0.000	1	0	1		13.0	33.0
MWC	0.000	4	0	4		11.0	35.8	0.000	1	0	1		3.0	26.0	0.000	2	0	2		10.5	36.0	0.000	1	0	1		20.0	45.0
PAC-12	0.000	2	0	2		12.0	24.0								0.000	2	0	2		12.0	24.0
SEC	0.000	4	0	4		4.2	43.0								0.000	3	0	3		3.3	47.0	0.000	1	0	1		7.0	31.0
WAC	0.000	3	0	3		16.0	33.7	0.000	1	0	1		31.0	34.0	0.000	2	0	2		8.5	33.5

 

That's MAC, WAC, MWC, CUSA ... places I would have loved to be in... but we just couldn't compete outside the SBC. That's the truth.

And this may just be me being picky, but I always considered that loss to Troy in 2001 as a loss in the SBC. They were joining the SBC next year as planned.  We all talked about it like it was a SBC game to prove who really has the dominance and they beat us (the SBC champ) the game before our bowl game.  Ouch.

 

His teams were fairly wild off the field, but it was mostly kept in house. During those days I kept a running mugshot gallery that I would farm from the Denton County Jail. 

He ran an us v. them style of team building that I just didn't respect too much. But, that's whatever. Whatever works. His guys were loyal too him, so it must have worked. I just never really liked it.  

So I am with @Monkeypox on this one -- stats are stats. He didn't have the overall stats. His time came, he was let go. 

This isn't about not recognizing. I recognize the SBC wins at the beginning of the SBC (then Troy took over). I recognize the fun parts. 

Edited November 9, 2017 by SteaminWillieBeamin

[Cr1028]

On 11/6/2017 at 7:52 AM, VideoEagle said:

Thirdly, if a the conference win streak is "no big deal" as some claim, why hasn't anyone else done it? In ANY conference? Ever. 

Boise and TCU have certainly come close. The reason nobody else talks about conference winning streaks is because they have true winning streaks. If any team dominates a conference like that and is mediocre out of conference, the conference is looked on as incredibly weak.

Quote

but there is no evidence at all that no one has offered him the position. 

Isn't that like saying there is no evidence that says you are not the Easter Bunny?

Edited November 9, 2017 by Cr1028

[GTWT]

2 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

I'm just listing statistics.

Your 'statistics' included the following:

Which dog crap would you rather eat?

Which terminal disease would you rather have?

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

It's kind of fun to walk down memory lane.

How bad was the SBC during our run?

2001: ONE of our SBC opponents had a winning record - MTSU 8-3

2002: ONE had a winning record - NMSU 7-5

2003: NONE had a winning record

2004: NONE had a winning record.

 

Note: Only listed teams we played. But Troy did have a winning record in 2004 too 7-5. THREE other teams in all of SBC had a winning record in four years.

Edited November 9, 2017 by SteaminWillieBeamin
Added MTSU