DRC: Sunday column: It' time to embrace Dickey for accomplishments

[Brett Vito]

DRC:

http://www.dentonrc.com/sports/mean-green/2017/11/05/brett-vito-unt-acknowledging-dickeys-contributions-high-time-mean-green-fans

[NorthTexan95]

I don't know of anyone who discounts for four Sun Belt titles.  I do believe he would have been in the UNT HoF already if he had not made the awful decision with the black, high school type uniforms. 

[Cooley]

Serious question for Vito. Why hasn't any other school hired him as head coach? Overall 42-65 record. I keep reading about 9-10 bowls in school history but there were only a handful of bowls during the majority of this time. North Texas did what it needed to do in that startup conference but the program didn't take off during or after he left. Neither did his career.

 

 

[GMG24]

Vito may be the most negative, I got you, beat reporter I've ever read.  Holy crap he can find anyway to drag UNT through the dirt. 

[LongJim]

4 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Vito may be the most negative, I got you, beat reporter I've ever read.  Holy crap he can find anyway to drag UNT through the dirt. 

See, I have never gotten that vibe from Vito.  I think he's actually a very good beat writer.  He's not paid to be a cheerleader.  TBH, I think he often goes easy on the program in some cases. 

[tmjerm]

The guy went on a 26-0 run through conference.  Veets is right about this.  Wouldn’t you be a bit of a curmudgeon if you had to deal with NT culture in that era too?  Fouts Field holds a special place in my heart, in fact my dog is named Fouts...but how do you recruit with what we had to work with facilities wise?  I came to NT in 2005 as a freshman because of Patrick and Jamario (and I  got into the honors college without having to write an essay and I was in a shitty band and we had a crush on Denton).  What those guys accomplished was absolutely HUGE considering we had essentially tried to kill our program not terribly long before Dickey got to town.  He may have been abraisive but we are a blue collar bunch and he kind of represented the school in a lot of ways.  I’ll be absolutely glad to cheer for Coach Dickey on Saturday in recognition for all he did for our program. 

[wardly]

I appreciate all D.D. did for UNT on a bare bones budget and Fouts Field to play in. I also think that he has passed on opportunities at a head coaching position and that what may be best for him and his family is being an Offensive Coordinator . Just a" guess and by golly," but with his success at Memphis  he surely had head coaching offers.I also think that Brent Vito tells us what we need to hear, and not always what we want to hear. My impression of him is that he is a straight shooter,that he can't afford to burn too many bridges with UNT, and that he must walk a fine line in order to gain access to our Athletic Administration and coaching staff.

[Hunter Green]

Regardless of the past, Coach Dickey deserves recognition for his time here. He may have recruited the best bunch of players who ever wore the Mean Green uniform. I hope to be able to shake his hand.

 

[NT93]

Ignorance is bliss.

My knowledge of Dickey is pretty much limited to knowing he was head coach during the aforementioned conference winning streak and the string of New Orleans bowl appearances.  So from my limited perspective he's a UNT Hall of Famer.

 

[GMG24]

1 hour ago, LongJim said:

See, I have never gotten that vibe from Vito.  I think he's actually a very good beat writer.  He's not paid to be a cheerleader.  TBH, I think he often goes easy on the program in some cases. 

You enjoy a beat writer who at any chance he gets, even in programs best season in recent memory finds a way to bring our negative past up several times? 

[GrandGreen]

1 hour ago, Hunter Green said:

Regardless of the past, Coach Dickey deserves recognition for his time here. He may have recruited the best bunch of players who ever wore the Mean Green uniform. I hope to be able to shake his hand.

 

Yeah, beat the hell out of that Steve Ramsey, Joe Greene, etc. group of recruits. 

He did have an amazing class, problem was he never came close to it before or after.  

 

3 hours ago, NorthTexan95 said:

I don't know of anyone who discounts for four Sun Belt titles.  I do believe he would have been in the UNT HoF already if he had not made the awful decision with the black, high school type uniforms. 

 Black uniforms was not the problem, killing his own program with his negativity and blasting his employer is a lot more pertinent. 

[greenminer]

52 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

You enjoy a beat writer who at any chance he gets, even in programs best season in recent memory finds a way to bring our negative past up several times? 

This weekend is a Dickey era reunion.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wasn't organized by Vito, and he feels a professional obligation to do a piece about it.

[Cooley]

I don’t have strong feelings one way or another about Dickey. I just can’t get excited that we ran the tables on schools that had just moved up to D1 from D1 AA or had just started a football program. The majority of all other games outside of this extremely weak start-up conference were losses. 

I also don’t get excited when a high school program like Allen is state ranked every year with over 6,000 students. 

[VideoEagle]

First of all, VIto is not particularly negative. He writes in the tone a report is taught in school to write and every editor will insist that he write. Beat reporters are NOT cheerleaders. Articles must be written with the assumption that the reader hasn't been following the story closely and they should contain context over the relevant period and several years before. When we do things well, Vito writes that. When we don't, he writes that. And he always includes the CONTEXT needed either way. 

Secondly, during the first several years, the SBC only had seven football members. Of those seven, three never were D1AA/FCS - ULaLa (formerly Southwestern Louisiana), New Mexico State and Utah State. (I'm not certain about USU, but I can't find them listed in a 1AA conference.) Arkansas State has a three year head start as a full D1/FBS member over us. Middle, Idaho and NT moved up at roughly the same time. So four of the seven teams had been D1A significantly longer and the other two were roughly equal in D1A experience. During the conference run, NT was beating more experienced or equal teams, not teams that we should have had a scholarship number advantage over. 

Thirdly, if a the conference win streak is "no big deal" as some claim, why hasn't anyone else done it? In ANY conference? Ever. 

Last, there is a presumption that DD has has never been offered another head coaching job. How do you know, just because he didn't announce he'd turned one down? He might not want to be head coach again - that is actually quite common amoung career coordinators. He did have a heart attack in his last year as a head coach and simply might not want the added stress. I don't know, but there is no evidence at all that no one has offered him the position. 

It was clearly time for DD to go when he was fired. And his childlike black uniform stunt makes him the poster child for "don't let anyone who's fired hang around."  Still, that conference winning streak was something quite special and it should be something in which the school takes pride. 

[LongJim]

18 minutes ago, VideoEagle said:

First of all, VIto is not particularly negative. He writes in the tone a report is taught in school to write and every editor will insist that he write. Beat reporters are NOT cheerleaders. Articles must be written with the assumption that the reader hasn't been following the story closely and they should contain context over the relevant period and several years before. When we do things well, Vito writes that. When we don't, he writes that. And he always includes the CONTEXT needed either way.

@GMG24

[DentonLurker]

I think part of what makes the Dickey situation complicated is that he is still coaching. I could be wrong, but for the most part, I feel like coaches get honored after they retire. I think the Dickey era already holds its place in UNT history. I just think that honoring the man takes time and will be a lot less awkward once he is no longer coaching. Just my 2 cents.

[Cerebus]

13 hours ago, NorthTexan95 said:

 I do believe he would have been in the UNT HoF already if he had not made the awful decision with the black, high school type uniforms. 

I think it had more to do to the fact that he and RV weren't even on speaking terms during his last years here.    

If you want to know what sort of things DD and RV butted heads over, the Keuhne/Sicuro report lays it out.  

 

[TheColonyEagle]

Like him or not.....that guy could find talent that no one else seemed to want. (I know the "under the radar" thing may have been annoying at times) but it wasn't just good talent, it was NFL talent. (I always wondered what Cody Spencer could've been if he played at a UT or OU who had real strength and conditioning programs (which we did not have) He had such a freakish combination of speed and size. I walked beside him one game in his pads and I remember thinking "a guy that size shouldn't be able to run that fast" I think he could've started at any school in the country)

Dickey's recruiting was actually pretty amazing given the crap he had to work with. With all our facility improvements since, we've never had the overall physical talent on defense like we had back then with the exception of a few. ( apologies to Zach Orr)

And that 2002 defense was one of the best units of any football team I've ever seen. It was almost unfair to watch other teams try to move the ball against them. 

[El Paso Eagle]

11 hours ago, Cooley said:

I don’t have strong feelings one way or another about Dickey. I just can’t get excited that we ran the tables on schools that had just moved up to D1 from D1 AA or had just started a football program. The majority of all other games outside of this extremely weak start-up conference were losses. 

I also don’t get excited when a high school program like Allen is state ranked every year with over 6,000 students. 

I have mixed feelings about DD and his time at UNT. I agree the streak of conference wins on the surface is impressive. However, and I know this will upset a lot of people if you look at the OOC performance it makes me wonder about HOF status. I believe he deserves recognition, but I would hope for any coach to be in a HOF the standards would include success in all games.

That being said, based on our history I am OK with honoring DD. I also believe a big part of this is extending an "olive branch" to players and supporters of the DD era.

[GrandGreen]

10 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

That being said, based on our history I am OK with honoring DD. I also believe a big part of this is extending an "olive branch" to players and supporters of the DD era.

I think it is all about that with Baker.  Also maybe a gig at  RV.  

 

3 hours ago, VideoEagle said:

Last, there is a presumption that DD has has never been offered another head coaching job. How do you know, just because he didn't announce he'd turned one down? He might not want to be head coach again - that is actually quite common amoung career coordinators. He did have a heart attack in his last year as a head coach and simply might not want the added stress. I don't know, but there is no evidence at all that no one has offered him the position. 

Nor is there any evidence he was offered a hc job.  Is it not just a little possibility that his behavior at NT may be a factor in employers not calling DD for hc jobs?   Not many want a head coach that publicly complains about his job situation. 

There are few that argue about the truth of what DD stated about NT.  Although all of DD's success in the Belt was against teams with similar or less resources. 

Rust, Moore, Fry, Tyler, Nelson, Parker and Simon: all had less resources than DD; yet were smart enough to not publicly make a bad situation much worse.  

[Cerebus]

23 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

  Is it not just a little possibility that his behavior at NT may be a factor in employers not calling DD for hc jobs?    

Knowing their relationship, what kind of references do you think he was getting from his boss?

 

24 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Rust, Moore, Fry, Tyler, Nelson, Parker and Simon: all had less resources than DD; yet were smart enough to not publicly make a bad situation much worse.  

Only Simon faced the tv contract money disparity that Dickey did, and he never won like Dickey.  Did Fry have as many resources and Darrel Royal?  No.  Did UT get $45M a year from TV then?  No.  

[GrandGreen]

23 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Knowing their relationship, what kind of references do you think he was getting from his boss?

 

Only Simon faced the tv contract money disparity that Dickey did, and he never won like Dickey.  Did Fry have as many resources and Darrel Royal?  No.  Did UT get $45M a year from TV then?  No.  

Generally, it is hard to use your boss as a reference if you are still on the job or if he terminated you.

Not sure what your point about TV money is?  I do agree the gap between have and have-nots has substantially grew over the decades, but fail to see how that relates to the NT resource issue.  I don't expect any G5 coach to consistently compete with P5 programs.   

You mentioned Fry who competed without his full compliment of players and coaches for most of his NT career to save money.   Dickey didn't have those restrains.  As far as Simon, check the schedules he had to play versus DD and tell me he didn't have it a lot worse than DD. 

I just find it amusing, that those who defend Dickey's telling it like it is at NT; also generally ignore the fact that NT's resources were a plus factor not a deficit in Dickey's four year reign atop of the Belt. 

[Cerebus]

12 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Generally, it is hard to use your boss as a reference if you are still on the job 

Not in college football.  

 

13 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

You mentioned Fry who competed without his full compliment of players and coaches for most of his NT career to save money.   Dickey didn't have those restrains. 

First I have ever heard of Fry being under the scholarship limit while at NT.   Not saying that is false, I just have never heard of that and would like to see it substantiated.  

 

14 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

As far as Simon, check the schedules he had to play versus DD and tell me he didn't have it a lot worse than DD. 

Simon has a murderous year his first year, having to play six P5 teams.   His second and third years he play seven combined, or about 3.5 P5 teams a year.  Dickey average 4 P5 teams a year his first three years.    They both had an enormous challenge to face.     Especially when you compare it to SL, who has had to face 1 P5 a year.   So no, I think they both had it pretty bad, and I don't think Simon had it "a lot worse" than Dickey.  

 

19 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I just find it amusing, that those who defend Dickey's telling it like it is at NT; also generally ignore the fact that NT's resources were a plus factor not a deficit in Dickey's four year reign atop of the Belt. 

That's not correct.  Overall FB budget was slightly over average.  Recruiting budget was right at average.  However our coaching budget was very low.  Our assistant pool was in the lower 1/3 of the league when DD won those conference championships, which is why DD constantly had to spend time replacing poached coaches.

I went on a lot of SBC roadtrips and facilities wise we where buried by several of them.  I remember staring in blank amazement at what MTSU had built.  Schools like ULL and ArkSt may not have had everything, but they had much better weight rooms, training rooms, and meeting rooms.  

So compared to SBC we where around average, not high on the hog.  

[Monkeypox]

5-18 his last two years at UNT.  People can come up with whatever excuses they want. He won less than 4 games in 5 of his 9 seasons here, and only had 3 winning seasons, finishing 42-64. That's the sum total of his HC experience (*unless you want to count 0-1 for Memphis in the bowl game against Auburn, but that'd be a little unfair). I think he was here an appropriate amount of time and is given the deserved credit of a coach with his particular statistical run. He's got a practice field and he's still working in college football. He doesn't need or hopefully care about me kissing his ass.

As a HC, he's an easier sell now. I wouldn't be surprised if he were given a HC shot after this season, as Mike Norvell might be hired away from Memphis after only 2 years.  I also wouldn't be surprised to see Dickey stay at Memphis (*perhaps both things happen), for any number of reasons. One reason he stayed in Memphis instead of going with Fuente was that his daughter was going to be a senior in high school. I think all bets are off after this year. And he's well-respected with coaches. He'll have some RB-coach/OC and HC offers this offseason, I'd bet.

So I think Dickey gets another shot. And I think he's become a much better coach in the intervening years. Yes, the environment and everything about our program was terrible at the time. Yes, it was a tough job. But a coach's job is to win games, and Dickey was no longer doing that job when he was let go. End of story. If I criticize a coach, and he wins on Saturday, he can call me on my personal cell any time the following week and call me a "m-fer" if he wants. Hell, I'll give him my mom's number, too. You realize how few wins I've seen since 1998? These aren't HIGH expectations, folks. They're the ONLY expectations in athletics. Win games.

Win games. That's it. Win games. I don't care about the environment. I don't care about the uniforms. I don't care if we play in Apogee or the Safeway parking lot. I don't care about your pageantry or locker rooms or lack thereof. I don't care who the opponent is. Win.

[emmitt01]

7 hours ago, VideoEagle said:

First of all, VIto is not particularly negative. He writes in the tone a report is taught in school to write and every editor will insist that he write. Beat reporters are NOT cheerleaders. Articles must be written with the assumption that the reader hasn't been following the story closely and they should contain context over the relevant period and several years before. When we do things well, Vito writes that. When we don't, he writes that. And he always includes the CONTEXT needed either way. 

Secondly, during the first several years, the SBC only had seven football members. Of those seven, three never were D1AA/FCS - ULaLa (formerly Southwestern Louisiana), New Mexico State and Utah State. (I'm not certain about USU, but I can't find them listed in a 1AA conference.) Arkansas State has a three year head start as a full D1/FBS member over us. Middle, Idaho and NT moved up at roughly the same time. So four of the seven teams had been D1A significantly longer and the other two were roughly equal in D1A experience. During the conference run, NT was beating more experienced or equal teams, not teams that we should have had a scholarship number advantage over. 

Thirdly, if a the conference win streak is "no big deal" as some claim, why hasn't anyone else done it? In ANY conference? Ever. 

Last, there is a presumption that DD has has never been offered another head coaching job. How do you know, just because he didn't announce he'd turned one down? He might not want to be head coach again - that is actually quite common amoung career coordinators. He did have a heart attack in his last year as a head coach and simply might not want the added stress. I don't know, but there is no evidence at all that no one has offered him the position. 

It was clearly time for DD to go when he was fired. And his childlike black uniform stunt makes him the poster child for "don't let anyone who's fired hang around."  Still, that conference winning streak was something quite special and it should be something in which the school takes pride.