Church Shooting outside San Antonio

[GTWT]

22 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

This article, if written by a credible journalist (appears so), sums up the situation pretty well.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/northern-california-gunman-kills-4-wounds-10-rampage-075324516.html

AGAIN, so many red flags! AGAIN, people dropped the ball...many people and organizations. This guy was clearly crazier than a shithouse rat! How can somebody shoot at a schoolhouse for six minutes without someone firing back? Oh...this happened in the Peoples Republic of California. Nevermind.

So again, if we can't keep assault weapons out of the hands of mad men, why not make assault weapons unavailable?

[EagleMBA]

3 minutes ago, GTWT said:

So again, if we can't keep assault weapons out of the hands of mad men, why not make assault weapons unavailable?

"Assault Weapons" (misnomer) will never be unavailable. I can build one in an afternoon, with nothing much more than a cheap drill press and a few hand tools, that will be completely "off the books". One that is built with parts sourced from numerous places or cannibalized parts. That is what the bad guys can and will do. Law-abiding citizens of this country purchase a serialized weapon from a licensed dealer (FFL), do the federal paperwork and submit it for a NICS background check.

Instead of taking the measures necessary to reign in those people who are unfit (vast minority), are you advocating taking away the rights of the overwhelming majority to keep and bear arms? Are you advocating reserving the right to keep and bear arms to agents of the State? Do you support the drumbeats of those who continue to bang loudly every time some sick SOB goes on a rampage, instead of supporting efforts to get to the core issues? Do you admire Marx, Lenin and Stalin? How about Rocket Man?

[UNTLifer]

3 hours ago, GTWT said:

So again, if we can't keep assault weapons out of the hands of mad men, why not make assault weapons unavailable?

How about leaving that crazy SOB locked up and under supervised care?

[EagleMBA]

This is not to belabor the point I made about building one or two weapons "off the books". As a service to those who are not into that, or thought that was an exaggeration, here are three random links; there are many sources. Not instructional links necessarily, just information about what you could do if it turns your crank. Just having a kit on hand could come in handy in case of "Prohibition V2.0".

https://daytonatactical.com/

https://milzap.com/t/80-lowers

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/80-percent-glock-and-the-buy-build-shoot-ar-15-kit-shot-show-2016/

If you or your Dad have/had basic shop skills and minimal equipment, you are good to go. I'm tempted to try it myself, just for fun.

 

Edited November 16, 2017 by EagleMBA

[GTWT]

16 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

"Assault Weapons" (misnomer) will never be unavailable. I can build one in an afternoon, with nothing much more than a cheap drill press and a few hand tools, that will be completely "off the books". One that is built with parts sourced from numerous places or cannibalized parts. That is what the bad guys can and will do. Law-abiding citizens of this country purchase a serialized weapon from a licensed dealer (FFL), do the federal paperwork and submit it for a NICS background check.

Instead of taking the measures necessary to reign in those people who are unfit (vast minority), are you advocating taking away the rights of the overwhelming majority to keep and bear arms? Are you advocating reserving the right to keep and bear arms to agents of the State? Do you support the drumbeats of those who continue to bang loudly every time some sick SOB goes on a rampage, instead of supporting efforts to get to the core issues? Do you admire Marx, Lenin and Stalin? How about Rocket Man?

"Law-abiding citizens of this country purchase a serialized weapon from a licensed dealer (FFL), do the federal paperwork and submit it for a NICS background check"

Bad guys sometimes do those same things, and pass, and buy their gun, and kill people.

"Are you advocating reserving the right to keep and bear arms to agents of the State?"

If you want to keep those rights then cooperate with the effort to change the laws so that bad guys have a harder time getting guns.

"Do you support the drumbeats of those who continue to bang loudly every time some sick SOB goes on a rampage,...?"

Are your rights to own guns more important than the rights of innocent children to live?

"Do you admire Marx, Lenin and Stalin? How about Rocket Man?"

What the hell does this have to do with this discussion?

 

14 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

How about leaving that crazy SOB locked up and under supervised care?

Too bad those folks had to die before this could happen.

[EagleMBA]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

"Law-abiding citizens of this country purchase a serialized weapon from a licensed dealer (FFL), do the federal paperwork and submit it for a NICS background check"

Bad guys sometimes do those same things, and pass, and buy their gun, and kill people.

"Are you advocating reserving the right to keep and bear arms to agents of the State?"

If you want to keep those rights then cooperate with the effort to change the laws so that bad guys have a harder time getting guns.

"Do you support the drumbeats of those who continue to bang loudly every time some sick SOB goes on a rampage,...?"

Are your rights to own guns more important than the rights of innocent children to live?

"Do you admire Marx, Lenin and Stalin? How about Rocket Man?"

What the hell does this have to do with this discussion?

 

Too bad those folks had to die before this could happen.

Bad guys sometimes do those same things, and pass, because some incompetent clerk or misguided official refused to enter the bad guy's transgressions into the NICS system. The bureaucracy has failed and wants to blame the people.

If you want to keep those rights... Whoa! Those rights are given to each of us by God. The Second Amendment reaffirms those rights, not gives them to us from a government bureaucracy.

Are your rights to own guns more important than the rights of innocent children to live?  That is not an either/or proposition. Apples and oranges there. Scenario: Three armed criminals break into my house, where my family is sleeping peacefully. Might they kill us all? Do I not have the right to protect myself and my children? What about my neighbor's children, if they go over there? I refuse to take a pool cue to a gunfight!

What the hell does this have to do with this discussion?  Those guys were/are all really fond of taking power from the people and building a dictatorial state bureaucracy. Disarming the people so they could not resist their tyranny was at the heart of their strategy. Exploiting bloody incidents for leverage in accomplishing that goal has been repeated time and again. 

Too bad those folks had to die. Very saddening to me, because they didn't have to. The signs were everywhere and NOBODY in law enforcement or the judiciary did a damned thing to stop this guy. 

I really hate watching history repeat itself.

 

Edited November 17, 2017 by EagleMBA

[MeanGreenTexan]

5 minutes ago, EagleMBA said:

Bad guys sometimes do those same things, and pass, because some incompetent clerk or misguided official refused to enter the bad guy's transgressions into the NICS system. The bureaucracy has failed and wants to blame the people.

If you want to keep those rights... Whoa! Those rights are given to each of us by God. The Second Amendment reaffirms those rights, not gives them to us from a government bureaucracy.

Are your rights to own guns more important than the rights of innocent children to live?  That is not an either/or proposition. Apples and oranges there. Scenario: Three armed criminals break into my house, where my family is sleeping peacefully. Might they kill us all? Do I not have the right to protect myself and my children? What about my neighbor's children, if they go over there?

What the hell does this have to do with this discussion?  Those guys were/are all really fond of taking power from the people and building a dictatorial state bureaucracy. Disarming the people so they could not resist their tyranny was at the heart of their strategy. Exploiting bloody incidents for leverage in accomplishing that goal has been repeated time and again. 

Too bad those folks had to die. Very saddening to me, because they didn't have to. The signs were everywhere and NOBODY in law enforcement or the judiciary did a damned thing to stop this guy. 

I really hate watching history repeat itself.

 

Yeah, kinda like our God-given rights to drive through a school zone at 80MPH, on a cell phone, without a seat belt!   
Are you serious?

[Censored by Laurie]

12 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Yeah, kinda like our God-given rights to drive through a school zone at 80MPH, on a cell phone, without a seat belt!   
Are you serious?

I'm pretty sure he just got Jesus and Mad Max confused. 

[EagleMBA]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Yeah, kinda like our God-given rights to drive through a school zone at 80MPH, on a cell phone, without a seat belt!   
Are you serious?

Very serious. God didn't say anything about stupid. Those things you cite are not rights, just anti-social behavior, IMO. We are a country of laws, where things like you cite are concerned. You do have the right to defend yourself and more people should consider taking personal responsibility for their own security. I grew up in a small city in a neighborhood where you could walk anywhere, or ride your bike without a worry, and the doors to our house were often unlocked. Fast forward sixty years, we have security systems, and "Don't leave home without it!" is not just an advertising slogan.

[MeanGreenTexan]

3 minutes ago, EagleMBA said:

Very serious. God didn't say anything about stupid. Those things you cite are not rights, just anti-social behavior, IMO. We are a country of laws, where things like you cite are concerned. You do have the right to defend yourself and more people should consider taking personal responsibility for their own security. I grew up in a small city in a neighborhood where you could walk anywhere, or ride your bike without a worry, and the doors to our house were often unlocked. Fast forward sixty years, we have security systems, and "Don't leave home without it!" is not just an advertising slogan.

Wouldn't it be prudent, being a country of laws, to examine those laws and make sure they're up-to-par with where our society needs them to be?  As they stand now, they're not working.
Count me in the group that believes we should be able to have guns for protection/sport/etc...   I have them myself.
But also count me in the group that believes guns should be very difficult to obtain.    If you're a good guy and would like a gun, you should have no problem passing a stringent vetting process that could take a while (a month? 2 months?)   If you're a felon, or diagnosed with a mental issue, it should be virtually impossible to pass the same vetting process.   And for people who skirt those laws for convenience or money, they should be prosecuted at a punishment level that would force them to put safeguards in place to make sure it never happens.

[EagleMBA]

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Wouldn't it be prudent, being a country of laws, to examine those laws and make sure they're up-to-par with where our society needs them to be?  As they stand now, they're not working.
Count me in the group that believes we should be able to have guns for protection/sport/etc...   I have them myself.
But also count me in the group that believes guns should be very difficult to obtain.    If you're a good guy and would like a gun, you should have no problem passing a stringent vetting process that could take a while (a month? 2 months?)   If you're a felon, or diagnosed with a mental issue, it should be virtually impossible to pass the same vetting process.   And for people who skirt those laws for convenience or money, they should be prosecuted at a punishment level that would force them to put safeguards in place to make sure it never happens.

We are not miles apart, conceptually, but the Constitution is supreme. The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Infringed is the sticky word where a lot of these proposals go off the tracks. The unreasonable time delays you cite are an example; I could buy a few days. In my case, it better be five minutes. For a first-timer, I can see some delays. Get too unreasonable and I'll just build one off the books; if I've gone rogue, I'll just steal one or buy one from "Hacksaw" in an alley somewhere. More legislation is NOT the answer. Enforcement of the laws already in place, diligent maintenance of the NICS database by the FBI and cooperation of others to assist the FBI in that task, and more attention to mental health issues would go a long way to reducing the number of incidents.

At the end of the day (Seth got to me), there is the human factor. There will always be crazies, people with anger issues, otherwise normal people that just snap, etc....we are humans.

[MeanGreenTexan]

5 minutes ago, EagleMBA said:

We are not miles apart, conceptually, but the Constitution is supreme. The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Infringed is the sticky word where a lot of these proposals go off the tracks. The unreasonable time delays you cite are an example; I could buy a few days. In my case, it better be five minutes. For a first-timer, I can see some delays. Get too unreasonable and I'll just build one off the books; if I've gone rogue, I'll just steal one or buy one from "Hacksaw" in an alley somewhere. More legislation is NOT the answer. Enforcement of the laws already in place, diligent maintenance of the NICS database by the FBI and cooperation of others to assist the FBI in that task, and more attention to mental health issues would go a long way to reducing the number of incidents.

At the end of the day (Seth got to me), there is the human factor. There will always be crazies, people with anger issues, otherwise normal people that just snap, etc....we are humans.

I agree with bad people doing hoodrat stuff, or crazy people doing something irrational.   I'm all for taking a closer look at that portion of the equation as well.
However, if your purchase of another gun being delayed by however long in order for a thorough check to be done (who knows what could happen between the last time you bought one and now?) could help save any lives, is that worth it for you? 
I mean, I may be wrong, but I highly doubt homeboy that shot up the Church knew a "Hacksaw", or anyone like him, to get one illegally... this assumption, just by judging him by his extremely-gooberish looking face.

I think it's unfair to just hide behind a "supreme" constitution and completely dismiss any dialogue with: "I have this right, you can't take it away".

[GTWT]

21 minutes ago, EagleMBA said:

 The right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. 

Interesting that you take that part of the 2nd amendment out of context - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I agree that the second amendment is important, I just don't think many people know what it means.

[EagleMBA]

9 hours ago, GTWT said:

Interesting that you take that part of the 2nd amendment out of context - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I agree that the second amendment is important, I just don't think many people know what it means.

Yeah, I took that out of context to shorten that post a little (knowing I was leaving myself open). I think I know what the Second Amendment says and means. I could go into that now but I know I would find myself writing an essay.

 

[GTWT]

11 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

Yeah, I took that out of context to shorten that post a little (knowing I was leaving myself open). I think I know what the Second Amendment says and means. I could go into that now but I know I would find myself writing an essay.

 

You put a capital 'T' on the word 'the', making it seem like a stand-alone sentence, but yeah, it was in the interest of brevity.