TAMS budget cut in half, adds arts to program

[Skipper]

State officials made budget cuts this summer to the Texas Academy of Mathematics and Science (TAMS), an academy for 11th and 12th-grade students. Jennifer Evans-Cowley, provost and vice-president of Academic

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[GTWT]

Penny-wise, pound-foolish.

[oldguystudent]

TAMS students were not pleased by this news, to say the least. 

[TreeFiddy]

Looks like somebody finally noticed the 'North' in front of Texas and immediately slashed the budget.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

This is insane. TAMS is a gem to have at UNT. 

[EagleMBA]

4 hours ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

This is insane. TAMS is a gem to have at UNT. 

Exactly. Looks like an effort to dilute the program's profile and success. We can't go around having excellence.

[DeepGreen]

Got to keep "our kind" in their rightful place.  Down.

[Monkeypox]

Yeah, TAMS class of '96 and UNT alumnus here. THANKFULLY over the last year a number of our alumni groups have been active in creating endowments for the program, but the real help will come if UNT puts its money where its mouth is when it comes to enticing more students (pretty much like myself-only successful), to stay at the school. I actually think an entry into some of the arts is a good idea, because there's a decent contingent of students who burn out on Math and Science in the program and go into the arts (myself and a number of friends who work in film/video/radio/tv/whathaveyou. There's definitely less compelling reasons for those kids to look elsewhere, as they're strong programs at UNT. The number of  successful men and women working here in DFW coming from UNT's RTVF (don't know if it's still called that) program from my time in school is amazing.

But these budget cuts really hurt UNT's ability go get students into the program and especially to entice them to continue their studies at UNT. And that's a key, because a large number of those kids are the kind you'd like to keep at your school if you can (I was an exception to that rule.)

[KRAM1]

Looks a tad like UNT has been evaluating the cost/benefit reward of pouring dollars into a program where the vast majority of its grads decide to attend college at schools other than UNT. I am a fan of TAMS, but do sort of wonder where the cost/benefit analysis lies with UNT. Does cost UNT a bunch of money each year in both hard and soft costs. If more TAMS grads continued their education at UNT than do now, the answer would be much easier to determine.  These are excellent students for sure, but, really, what does UNT really get for its rather large annual investment?

Some feel that UNT is pouring lots of dollars into preparing great students to attend universities other than UNT, and the question is why?  TAMS could do itself a big favor if more of its grads stayed at UNT.

I do not have the answer. I just know the discussion is taking place.  I hope the eventual answer is that more and more TAMS grads decide to stay at UNT for college and that UNT decides TAMS is a must keep treasure.

Edited November 7, 2017 by KRAM1

[Monkeypox]

UNT GETS a shit-ton from TAMS. The TAMS scholarship is funded by the state (through the TEA).  Those details are in the article. Smatresk said last year they UNT was going to try to do more to keep UNT students there, but that's not on the students. That's on the University. I would say they've failed to entice the students to stay, but last year was the first to make overtures to it. 

UT Austin was PISSED when UNT got TAMS. 

[EagleMBA]

Mark's post raised a question in my mind. If we are losing kids we would like to retain to other schools, what are we doing to enhance the UNT programs in which those kids would logically enroll? Not trying to be critical folks, what can be done to elevate those programs so the kids stay and progress to graduation from UNT? It seems to me that the way to get a larger return on the TAMS investment is to make the investments necessary to strengthen certain departments/programs and enhance their academic reputations. More TAMS students might continue on here.

Edited November 8, 2017 by EagleMBA

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

I know dozens of TAMSters (sleep next to one every night, in fact). I know of ONE guy that stayed at UNT post TAMS.

None of them were recruited to stay at UNT. Even on university night when all the l33t schools came to pitch their programs, UNT didn't put up a table with pizza. Nothing. 

Thus, when deciding whether to go Columbia, UT, A&M, Stanford and even UTD -- UNT doesn't even put itself in the game. These kids got stipends and full tuitions at other schools. We didn't even offer pizza. 

 

[Monkeypox]

25 minutes ago, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

I know dozens of TAMSters (sleep next to one every night, in fact). I know of ONE guy that stayed at UNT post TAMS.

None of them were recruited to stay at UNT. Even on university night when all the l33t schools came to pitch their programs, UNT didn't put up a table with pizza. Nothing. 

Thus, when deciding whether to go Columbia, UT, A&M, Stanford and even UTD -- UNT doesn't even put itself in the game. These kids got stipends and full tuitions at other schools. We didn't even offer pizza. 

 

So, UT and A&M, you get auto-scholarships after TAMS. This has been the case since the inception of the school in 1987, in order to mitigate the fact there's no class ranking at TAMS (the 10% rule). For years, the top 10% of your class at Texas High School got auto-scholarships to those schools. Because TAMS kids are all taking university courses, with vastly different coursework starting as early as 2nd semester, they're all treated as top 10% (although theoretically they're top 1%). UNT only SPOKE about offering that last year. I don't know if they've done anything yet. 

But keep in mind, this is mostly state-level money that TAMS lives and dies by. UNT does provide for a percentage of the TAMS budget, but it's less than they recoup from the state for the 400-500 student enrollment and from Room and Board, which is still the responsibility of students. TAMS has stated in recent years that they HAVE to maintain full enrollment in order to keep from risking their finances. I'm hoping if we get the endowments really rolling, then TAMS can continue to operate. I believe there's a plan for some concerned alumni to meet with the Dean sometime late this year or early next. We'll see what happens.

I stayed at UNT after TAMS, because I liked it there, and because I burned out on the programs I had been interested in after the introduction to the realities of life in those fields in Academia. If I'd stayed on my course, there's no way I would have stayed there. Honestly, though, if they'd have had some tracks like they're speaking of introducing in the arts, then I think it would help. I might have found out much earlier that I liked the things offered outside of the pre-med/engineering curriculum.

A lot of programs, though, you're fighting an uphill battle. I think the value proposition for staying at UNT is the first step, though. Try and at least keep them through undergrad. Know that, even though a lot of students go off to Cal Tech and MIT and Stanford, you're still mostly losing them to UT and A&M. 

IF it honestly came down to money from UNT to keep it afloat, then I think it either shuts down or moves to another school in the state willing to host and pay for it. Like I said, UT Austin was FIERCELY competing for the program, and they certainly have the cash flow for it. 

[Harry]

39 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

So, UT and A&M, you get auto-scholarships after TAMS. This has been the case since the inception of the school in 1987, in order to mitigate the fact there's no class ranking at TAMS (the 10% rule). For years, the top 10% of your class at Texas High School got auto-scholarships to those schools. Because TAMS kids are all taking university courses, with vastly different coursework starting as early as 2nd semester, they're all treated as top 10% (although theoretically they're top 1%). UNT only SPOKE about offering that last year. I don't know if they've done anything yet. 

But keep in mind, this is mostly state-level money that TAMS lives and dies by. UNT does provide for a percentage of the TAMS budget, but it's less than they recoup from the state for the 400-500 student enrollment and from Room and Board, which is still the responsibility of students. TAMS has stated in recent years that they HAVE to maintain full enrollment in order to keep from risking their finances. I'm hoping if we get the endowments really rolling, then TAMS can continue to operate. I believe there's a plan for some concerned alumni to meet with the Dean sometime late this year or early next. We'll see what happens.

I stayed at UNT after TAMS, because I liked it there, and because I burned out on the programs I had been interested in after the introduction to the realities of life in those fields in Academia. If I'd stayed on my course, there's no way I would have stayed there. Honestly, though, if they'd have had some tracks like they're speaking of introducing in the arts, then I think it would help. I might have found out much earlier that I liked the things offered outside of the pre-med/engineering curriculum.

A lot of programs, though, you're fighting an uphill battle. I think the value proposition for staying at UNT is the first step, though. Try and at least keep them through undergrad. Know that, even though a lot of students go off to Cal Tech and MIT and Stanford, you're still mostly losing them to UT and A&M. 

IF it honestly came down to money from UNT to keep it afloat, then I think it either shuts down or moves to another school in the state willing to host and pay for it. Like I said, UT Austin was FIERCELY competing for the program, and they certainly have the cash flow for it. 

Great info.  Love the concept of the program but my main concern is does it ultimately benefit UNT?  It seems to me if a student attends TAMS and goes to Princeton/UT/Texas A&M or where ever when they graduate they end up repping and supporting their chosen undergrad school.  If not it needs to be restructured to where it does benefit UNT in some way or needs to re-evaluated.  Like you said there are plenty of schools with more cash that could probably afford the luxury of having an elite college pass through program.   If a good number of these students are attending UNT it is a different story.   It impresses me that we are taking a long look at all of our assets and hope they are willing to make tough decisions when needed.

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

I can tell you this -- when I mention that my wife went to TAMS -- EVERYONE knows it is at UNT. It brings another thing to UNT. 

 

[Monkeypox]

A lot of the research rewards and work they do results in grant money and award funds for UNT as well as the students. Also, UNT gets two years of 400-500 undergrads above and beyond what they would normally attract, with better academic credentials than their average. UNT makes money on TAMS. UNT needs TAMS more than TAMS or TAMS students need UNT.

The idea that, because the kids aren't out there "repping" UNT, a program that makes money and earns scholarship and research rewards isn't a benefit, is the kind of small-time thinking that's made UNT an afterthought for these kinds of students in the first place. The first step is getting them in the door. Even if it's only two years, you've at least got them for that long.

The point I was making was that UT Austin could self-fund TAMS with private money without having to worry much about the state funding. Hell, UT could go entirely private if they wanted to with their endowment. So it wasn't a point of costs to UNT. It was a point of institutional support. AGAIN, ALMOST ALL OF TAMS FUNDING COMES FROM THE STATE.

33 minutes ago, Harry said:

Great info.  Love the concept of the program but my main concern is does it ultimately benefit UNT?  It seems to me if a student attends TAMS and goes to Princeton/UT/Texas A&M or where ever when they graduate they end up repping and supporting their chosen undergrad school.  If not it needs to be restructured to where it does benefit UNT in some way or needs to re-evaluated.  Like you said there are plenty of schools with more cash that could probably afford the luxury of having an elite college pass through program.   If a good number of these students are attending UNT it is a different story.   It impresses me that we are taking a long look at all of our assets and hope they are willing to make tough decisions when needed.

 

[Harry]

23 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

A lot of the research rewards and work they do results in grant money and award funds for UNT as well as the students. Also, UNT gets two years of 400-500 undergrads above and beyond what they would normally attract, with better academic credentials than their average. UNT makes money on TAMS. UNT needs TAMS more than TAMS or TAMS students need UNT.

The idea that, because the kids aren't out there "repping" UNT, a program that makes money and earns scholarship and research rewards isn't a benefit, is the kind of small-time thinking that's made UNT an afterthought for these kinds of students in the first place. The first step is getting them in the door. Even if it's only two years, you've at least got them for that long.

The point I was making was that UT Austin could self-fund TAMS with private money without having to worry much about the state funding. Hell, UT could go entirely private if they wanted to with their endowment. So it wasn't a point of costs to UNT. It was a point of institutional support. AGAIN, ALMOST ALL OF TAMS FUNDING COMES FROM THE STATE.

 

Sounds from your explanation like it benefits UNT quite a bit--  so like I stated, I am in! 

My question to you is, why in the heck would UNT be considering cutting such a valuable program?  Something isn't adding up.  Not trying to sound skeptical, just trying to understand.

If the program adds value shouldn't UNT make up the loss in state funding?  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Monkeypox]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

Sounds from your explanation like it benefits UNT quite a bit--  so like I stated, I am in! 

My question to you is, why in the heck would UNT be considering cutting such a valuable program?  Something isn't adding up.  Not trying to sound skeptical, just trying to understand.

UNT isn't cutting it. The state legislature is. UNT HAS cut some funding in the past a couple of times, but it's funny because it's a drop in the bucket of TAMS funds, and TAMS generates somewhere around $10m for the University based on the state credits and housing. When I was there, TAMS students take 15 and 16 hrs their first two semesters, and after that it's anywhere from 13-21(with a waiver).

As to why UNT has cut them before (and probably will again), I imagine the answer to that WHY has something to do with UNT's historic mis-management of so many things. 

The point is... UNT NEEDS TO TRY. And I believe they're starting, but it's pretty late in the game, as this is the 30th year of the program. I can tell you that Smatresk and the University have been MUCH more involved than previous administrations have been. The alumni outreach is going to be the critical factor. That, and REALLY trying to poach those kids. I don't know if there's any kind of handshake agreement about that or anything, because I have a hard time understanding how hands-off the school is. 

I went to my first UNT football game my first week there, walking across the field to Fouts with my best friend, and meeting one of my other best friends for the first time. So I can say our lack of athletic success is also part of the equation. 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Monkeypox

[oldguystudent]

Right now, my daughter says she would stay at UNT if it were the only economically viable option -- in other words, if she doesn't get into Cal Tech or the Ivies, or Rice wants to charge too much, then she'll stay at UNT rather than pay money to Texas or Oklahoma or whatever.  As far as not Cal Tech or Ivy League schools go, she sees UNT on par with Texas and Oklahoma -- a standard undergrad degree.  

That said, she's actively pursuing admission (and scholarships) to Cal Tech, Princeton, Columbia, etc.  If any of those schools come through, it's a tough sell to both her and me that UNT would be the best option.  

One thing not mentioned here, however, is that they have a TAMS to Eagle scholarship now, wherein those TAMS students who don't become national merit scholars (quite a few of them do), can choose to stay at UNT and enjoy a substantial scholarship package.  

My daughter is telling me that those students who have taken advantage of that have expressed regret because they leave TAMS, stay at UNT, and find themselves to be complete social outcasts -- too old to continue hanging out with TAMS students, too young (and too smart) to hang out with they UNT junior class peers.  They also express frustration at going from a peer group where everybody is striving to be the best in the country to going to a peer group who bitches in class about having to do homework because it's not fair and did you hear about fifty cent shot night at Lou's last night. 

[Monkeypox]

Thankfully, I was able to find plenty of fun peer groups at UNT.  I hung out with everything from complete burners to serious grad students. There was an odd transition year there, where I still had friends that were seniors in TAMS, but had to kind of be careful with interactions or hanging out there too much.

Honestly, though, most of that sounds like the same difficulty students would have had at any of the other universities. I honestly don't think it's that they stayed at UNT that they became social outcasts. The transition is hard no matter where you go. I think it gets somewhat mitigated by the fact that when those kids are going to UT and A&M from TAMS, they have a pocket of friends from TAMS that they go with. Up until the last minute, I was going to go to A&M. I had a pre-lease on a duplex with two other TAMS friends.  But again, if there were more students staying at UNT, then I think that becomes part of that process as well.

That's always been one of the subjects brought up by guidance counselors and teachers when trying to convince you NOT to go to TAMS - the transition from TAMS to "regular" college. I don't think going to UNT vs going to UT or A&M makes that transition any harder. A lot of it just depends on how independent you are.

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by Monkeypox