Let's Rehash the Recruiting Conversation

Caw Caw · October 15, 2017

Does the outcome and development of single offer/lowly recruited guys and their contributions under Litrell change your attitudes about the recruiting job they are doing?

2016:

Khairi MUhammad - No other offers

Mason Fine - No other offers

Eji Ejiya - Single FBS Offer

Dee Baulkman - No Other Offers

Josh Wheeler - No Other Offers

Michael Lawrence - Walk-On

2017:

Evan Johnson - No Other Offers

Kemon Hall - No Other Offers

Saia Mose - No Other offers

-

Let me get this out of the way first, I would LOVE to win more recruiting battles. Now, I've only covered guys who made it to campus and are already contributors. I've long advocated that Seth & Co recruit culture and system as well as talent. For that very reason, I don't think we take Antonio Gage even if he did climb back on board. We're at the point where the staff is offering guys early, some of them have been committed before getting any more offers. Some have blown up and been snatched by P5, and of course we've lost some to competitors. That being said, our development and coaching staff seem to be able to get the most out of players. Do you trust this staff on the recruiting side to get guys that work for them, or is it still an utter disappointment for you?

I'll also mention, this 2017 Class has a lot of red-shirting going on, and Litrell is already on record that several of the Class' lineman could have contributed this year, but they thought the redshirt year was more important. I don't think Litrell's freshman class can be understated in value to this point. Anyway, just wanted to see if any minds had changed as the season had progressed.

BTG_Fan1 · October 15, 2017

I maybe overlooking someone on defense but Muhammad maybe our Defensive MVP, and Fine should the overall MVP

Caw Caw · October 15, 2017

35 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

I maybe overlooking someone on defense but Muhammad maybe our Defensive MVP, and Fine should the overall MVP

I've said for a long time. In g5 ball, development can overtake recruiting challenges. Sub-4 star, there is no magical formula, guys don't get as many scouts or writers looking at them every game and watching their every move. A lot of that means 3 star and down it's about evaluation, system and development.

Harry · October 15, 2017

The analysis quality as you drop into the 2-3 star range drops in accuracy due to the sheer numbers who fall into that category. Also factor in recruiting services focus on junior seasons and camps.

BTG_Fan1 · October 15, 2017

18 minutes ago, Harry said:

The analysis quality as you drop into the 2-3 star range drops in accuracy due to the sheer numbers who fall into that category. Also factor in recruiting services focus on junior seasons and camps.

And recruits getting a boost on where they commit because of users registered with a site..

UNT has only 2 Stars now, but has had 3 more recruits drop from 3* to 2*...

BillySee58 · October 15, 2017

Let me clear up my side of the argument, and state what I have stated for years, and not necessarily how the argument has been construed.

1, Players with better offer lists pan out at a higher rate in general. I do believe this to be true, ceteris paribus.

2. This issue is not signing no offer guys who the coaches like. The issue arises when coaches lose nearly every recruiting battle and are relegated to no offer guys. Get the ones you want, don't settle for them.

3. The positions where offer lists are not as important are with QBs, smaller skill players (slot receivers and scat back types), and defensive back. Short QBs generally don't have many offers but if they are good, can fit your system, and can be developed well then it doesn't matter. Guys like Rakeem Cato, Nick Mullens, Blake Bogenschutz (pre injury), Todd Reesing, etc. have proven this point to me over time.

The small skill players, they don't get offered because they are small but there job is to catch the ball and make guys miss, not physically impose their will on people. Plenty of examples here at UNT alone, like Chancellor, Harris, and now looking like Lawrence and maybe Evan Johnson as well. Same with DBs. If you can cover and tackle in the open field, you don't have to have ideal size.

With the linemen and linebacker types, the all-conference ones we have had were guys who other schools wanted.

4. To go along with the last point, getting no-offer guys who are undersized but great high school players is much different than getting no offer guys with prototypical size. If a guy has FBS measurable but we aren't having to outrecruit quality programs to get him, then that's a problem. I delved into this at the end of the MGN Podcast #75 last signing day

https://meangreennation.com/category/mgn-podcast/page/2/

5. The genesis of breaking things down by offer lists for me started 3 years ago when I was trying to identify players most likely to become all-conference guys. The best offer list in last year's class was Jalen Guyton. Arguably the second best was Jaelon Darden. Guyton is already an all-conference guy caliber player, and Darden shows the makings of one. If that happens, and you're asking the other guys to just become solid role players and dependable starters, then that's a great setup. The problem comes when you don't pull Guyton/Darden/Wilson/Bussey types and you're asking no offer guys to be your all conference guys and best players. That's what happened in 2015.

dmaxel · October 16, 2017

I still want to win the recruiting battles. Not to belittle our current amazing roster, but winning those would make Littrell's job on the field a lot easier!

BillySee58 · October 16, 2017

3 hours ago, dmaxel said:

I still want to win the recruiting battles. Not to belittle our current amazing roster, but winning those would make Littrell's job on the field a lot easier!

I think our current roster does actually show the importance of winning recruiting battles. Or at least getting guys other schools wanted at one point or another. The 2014, 2015, and 2016 classes were, based on offer lists, the 3 best classes North Texas has signed since Mccarney's first class back in 2011. Then you throw in 2017 signee Jalen Guyton, who we beat out West Virginia and Kansas for, and Jaelon Darden who had 5 other FBS offers including Va Tech at one point, and you've got a decent collection of guys who were coveted prospects.

Edited October 16, 2017 by BillySee58

Caw Caw · October 16, 2017

5 minutes ago, BillySee58 said:

I think our current roster does actually show the importance of winning recruiting battles. Or at least getting guys other schools wanted at one point or another. The 2014, 2015, and 2016 classes were, based on offer lists, the 3 best classes North Texas has signed since Mccarney's first class back in 2011. Then you throw in 2017 signee Jalen Guyton, who we beat out West Virginia and Kansas for, and Jaelon Darden who had 5 other FBS offers including Va Tech at one point, and you've got a decent collection of guys who were coveted prospects.

While I do understand your outlook and philosophy, and do find it to be a sound goal, do you not think some coaching staffs and systems can do more with less? Obviously the apex is to have both, I would love to see some of the better recruiting battles be won at LB, DE, Nose and O-line, but those are the toughest to recruit across the G5 landscape all the way around.

GrandGreen · October 16, 2017

Seth and company have a great record finding players who can contribute. I think that they are proving that they are much better at that than any recent staffs.

The issue is that they are losing most of the recruits that have multiple offers including those with only offers from other peer programs.

The facts are that NT thought these players they lose would have obviously helped the team or they wouldn't have offered. I don't believe for a second that they prefer the majority of NT's recruits above those with longer offer sheets that they chose other options.

Every G5 finds some great players who were generally ignored. Mostly those that did not fit the P5 metrics for recruits. I called these guys the too's. Too short, too slow, too much academic risk, etc. The very best player that NT has recruited in decades was Booger Kennedy, too short and fat for all but a few lower tier teams. I think that NT has maybe found another of that magnitude in Fine, too short, too little high school competition.

NT, in my obviously biased view, has a lot more to offer than most G5's. The missing probably most important piece is winning. Now that has started to change, I expect more recruiting victories to follow.

MeanGreenTexan · October 16, 2017

9 hours ago, Caw Caw said:

While I do understand your outlook and philosophy, and do find it to be a sound goal, do you not think some coaching staffs and systems can do more with less? Obviously the apex is to have both, I would love to see some of the better recruiting battles be won at LB, DE, Nose and O-line, but those are the toughest to recruit across the G5 landscape all the way around.

OK. Then don't settle. It's OK to be frustrated when a coveted prospect chooses UTSA/LATech/Tulsa/etc... over UNT. Heck, it's OK to be frustrated when a prospect chooses SMU or Houston over UNT.

Wag Tag · October 16, 2017

Win recruiting battles are great and I believe there is no reason we can't be an 80 ranked class. Development is really the critical point for our team and that is why red shirting ( especially linemen) is so important. This also brings me back to the weight room, nutrition, and trainers. We have a great conditioning coach now the weight room along with the machines and gear needs to step it up big time!

BTG_Fan1 · October 16, 2017

You can see a # of differences between 2016/2017.. 2016 it was just add talent, even if it comes as a risk because we can blueshirt and kick it down the line.. 2017 was add depth at critical spots, but also meant to get everyone to campus. They got burned in 2016.. Johnson, Haynes, Turner, Hoston, O’Hara and I’m sure I’m missing someone else who never made it or made it and left immediately or left within a year.. once we are sitting back at that 80/85 (which we are now) and can stay there. I’m sure SL and the staff will take a few more risks.

#TrustTheProcess

ChristopherRyanWilkes · October 16, 2017

May I add that I still believe you're more likely to find overlooked guys in places like Oklahoma and East Texas (see: Jeff Wilson/Mason Fine/Rico Bussey, etc.), than in DFW..

Don't get me wrong, I want to recruit in our own backyard, but it's harder to be overlooked in this coveted of a recruiting area.

GMG24 · October 17, 2017

9 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

May I add that I still believe you're more likely to find overlooked guys in places like Oklahoma and East Texas (see: Jeff Wilson/Mason Fine/Rico Bussey, etc.), than in DFW..

Don't get me wrong, I want to recruit in our own backyard, but it's harder to be overlooked in this coveted of a recruiting area.

I'll argue teams reach on FCS type kids just because DFW is easy to recruit. I'm ALL about hitting east and west tx hard. Even El Paso. Go where people aren't willing to go, except for the big time prospects. Then they'll go anywhere.