How does this 2017 UNT team compare to the 2013 team?

GOMG2013 · October 2, 2017

1 hour ago, GrandGreen said:

Thanks, I knew he played last year, just erred.

Yes, at this point: Muhammad is having an excellent year. Trice was an outstanding player, but Muhammad has had an exceptional early season.

What the ? I'm watching at totally different game than you. Trice not only racked up tackles like our safeties have done, but he was very active in the passing game against similar or even better competition. Creating fumbles, Ints...what? Our 3rd down issues are due to the play of the safety...and we have 3 of them.

You must be assuming or projecting what Muhammad will be his senior year.

And no one is having an EXCELLENT year at that facility. Not yet.

greeneagle1 · October 2, 2017

3 hours ago, Harry said:

I meant Darnell Smith dammit! Always screws me up lol.

The 2013 Receiving corps was Breelan Chancellor, Darnell SMITH, and CARLOS Harris. Great Trio. Now compare that to this year's trio of Guyton, Bussey Jr., and Lawrence or Smiley.

GrandGreen · October 2, 2017

18 minutes ago, GOMG2013 said:

Stop it. NOW!

I would take Jeff Wilson and Guyton from this team. That's it. Not even close. And none of the coaching staff...Maybe Littrell in a few more years...

Granted, Trice vs Muhammad is an argument, but if you really believe Mac is a better coach than Littrell; your vote shouldn't count.

Mean Green 93-98 · October 2, 2017

2 minutes ago, greeneagle1 said:

The 2013 Receiving corps was Breelan Chancellor, Darnell SMITH, and CARLOS Harris. Great Trio. Now compare that to this year's trio of Guyton, Bussey Jr., and Lawrence or Smiley.

At this point, that's no contest. But Guyton is climbing very quickly.

GOMG2013 · October 2, 2017

1 minute ago, GrandGreen said:

Granted, Trice vs Muhammad is an argument, but if you really believe Mac is a better coach than Littrell; your vote shouldn't count.

Lets tap the brakes. some of yall are crowning Littrell for beating a team we beat last year. And that QB Griggs has started 4 D1 games. lets not act like we have a defense yet. Mac (and Chico) were HORRIBLE at picking QBs and development. Littrell and Co looks like they have Mac beat in that area, but that's about it. There's still plenty other areas and positions that are not even close.

Mac won a bowl and 9 games. Littrell still has a lot of work to do. A lot. And this conference is a lot weaker than it was in 2013...

Aldo · October 2, 2017

6 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

1. Give me 2013 Senior Derek Thompson. Great decision-maker. Fine is doing well, but the best is yet to come for him.

Fine is on pace (comparing to DT's 13 games in '13) to double his TDs, 20% more yards.

All while throwing for fewer INTs - which I think is a part of your point.

GOMG2013 · October 2, 2017

8 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Granted, Trice vs Muhammad is an argument, but if you really believe Mac is a better coach than Littrell; your vote shouldn't count.

oh yeah, i almost forgot...

No argument...

2013
• Named to the 2013 Conference USA All-Conference First Team at defensive back
• Named first-team all-conference by C-USA
• Led NT with five interceptions and eight PBU's
• Tied for fourth in C-USA in interceptions and seventh in PBU's
• Finished third on the team in tackles with a career-high 90
• Had 4.5 tackles for loss and two forced fumbles
• Recorded seven tackles in the win over UNLV at the Heart of Dallas Bowl
• Led NT with three blocked kicks on the year, two punts and one field goal
• Blocked a punt that resulted in a touchdown at No. 9 Georgia
• Notched a career-high 14 tackles and had an interception at Ohio
• Blocked a field goal against Idaho
• Had five or more tackles in 10 of 12 games
• Had two interceptions in the victory over Rice, including the game clinching pick
• Notched an interception at Southern Miss and had two PBU's

MeanGreenTexan · October 2, 2017

8 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Granted, Trice vs Muhammad is an argument, but if you really believe Mac is a better coach than Littrell; your vote shouldn't count.

Pre-extension McCarney was a pretty good coach! And in 2013, almost everything went right. The team's buy-in was through the roof, and it showed on the field. We must keep the conversation framed correctly. We're not talking about 2015, halfway-retired McCarney.

1 minute ago, Aldo said:

Fine is on pace (comparing to DT's 13 games in '13) to double his TDs, 20% more yards.

All while throwing for fewer INTs - which I think is a part of your point.

Good call. Maybe this would be a better question for AFTER the season. Fine could get better as the season rolls along!
But, as of now, knowing how that season went, VS the uncertainty of this year, I'll take Senior Thompson. Who's to say DT couldn't put up these kinds of numbers if he were in Littrell's system?

rws69 · October 2, 2017

Looking forward to including the 2018 NT team in this discussion with the number of freshmen and sophomores in the current two-deep. How Littrell replaces Wilson, T. Moore, Flusche, Jenkins, and McClain will be key.

GrandGreen · October 2, 2017

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Pre-extension McCarney was a pretty good coach! And in 2013, almost everything went right. The team's buy-in was through the roof, and it showed on the field. We must keep the conversation framed correctly. We're not talking about 2015, halfway-retired McCarney.

We are comparing coaching through 5 games 2017 and 2013.

Not everything went right in 2013, NT blew a game in New Orleans that should have been won and lost to UTSA at home in what appeared to be a lackluster effort.

Overall 2013 was without doubt the best year NT has had in an decade. We should all be happy if this years' team approaches that record. But that is not the question, the question is who is the best coach Littrell in 2017 or Mac in 2013.

If Mac was a good coach he would have more than one good year, he didn't automatically get good for one year only.

Again that 2013 team's leading players were almost all recruited by Dodge. Mac did to his credit do a good job of developing the players he inherited. His coaching style only works when he has superior players.

Mac was a dismal very expensive failure at NT, who hit on one year with a very experienced ball club. IMO, Mac inherited a much better squad than what he left Littrell.

Edited October 2, 2017 by GrandGreen

GrandGreen · October 2, 2017

53 minutes ago, GOMG2013 said:

oh yeah, i almost forgot...

No argument...

2013
• Named to the 2013 Conference USA All-Conference First Team at defensive back
• Named first-team all-conference by C-USA
• Led NT with five interceptions and eight PBU's
• Tied for fourth in C-USA in interceptions and seventh in PBU's
• Finished third on the team in tackles with a career-high 90
• Had 4.5 tackles for loss and two forced fumbles
• Recorded seven tackles in the win over UNLV at the Heart of Dallas Bowl
• Led NT with three blocked kicks on the year, two punts and one field goal
• Blocked a punt that resulted in a touchdown at No. 9 Georgia
• Notched a career-high 14 tackles and had an interception at Ohio
• Blocked a field goal against Idaho
• Had five or more tackles in 10 of 12 games
• Had two interceptions in the victory over Rice, including the game clinching pick
• Notched an interception at Southern Miss and had two PBU's

Apparently there is an argument. Again I didn't state Mohammed was better, but I do think thus far he is capable of having a Trice type year. I don't have an handy bio to copy, but Mohammed is obviously leading NT in tackles and has made some big plays. Can he match Trice's senior year, probably not; so you have beaten me to submission. I now pick Trice.

UNT 90 Grad · October 2, 2017

4 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Apparently there is an argument. Again I didn't state Mohammed was better, but I do think thus far he is capable of having a Trice type year. I don't have an handy bio to copy, but Mohammed is obviously leading NT in tackles and has made some big plays. Can he match Trice's senior year, probably not; so you have beaten me to submission. I now pick Trice.

Here is his bio for this year so far:

2017:
• Posted a team-high seven tackles with a forced fumble and recovered fumble on 9/2 vs. Lamar

Aldo · October 3, 2017

Muhammad is exceeding Trice in the tackle department on a per game basis, but isn’t the disruptive force (right now) that Trice was while the ball was still in the air.

And yes, Muhammad is the team leader in tackles right now.

NT93 · October 3, 2017

13 hours ago, dmaxel said:

Fine

Wilson

Guyton

Orr

Trice

Littrell

(Harrell)

(Skladany...for now)

(Perry...for now)

Again, only comparing vs 2013 team.

I know this devalues your selections, but this is exactly how I'd pick them (minus the bonus picks in parentheses...though I probably agree with those as well).

Got5onIt · October 3, 2017

'13 had the better defense, not even close.

'17 has the better offense, not even close. However, I think Brelan was the most explosive offensive player between the 2 groups.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Got5onIt

dmaxel · October 3, 2017

1 hour ago, Got5onIt said:

'13 had the better defense, not even close.

'17 had the better offense, not even close. However, I think Brelan was the most explosive offensive player between the 2 groups.

BRELAN THE LEGEND. Man do I miss having him on the team.

TIgreen01 · October 3, 2017

17 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

We are comparing coaching through 5 games 2017 and 2013.

Not everything went right in 2013, NT blew a game in New Orleans that should have been won and lost to UTSA at home in what appeared to be a lackluster effort.

Overall 2013 was without doubt the best year NT has had in an decade. We should all be happy if this years' team approaches that record. But that is not the question, the question is who is the best coach Littrell in 2017 or Mac in 2013.

If Mac was a good coach he would have more than one good year, he didn't automatically get good for one year only.

Again that 2013 team's leading players were almost all recruited by Dodge. Mac did to his credit do a good job of developing the players he inherited. His coaching style only works when he has superior players.

Mac was a dismal very expensive failure at NT, who hit on one year with a very experienced ball club. IMO, Mac inherited a much better squad than what he left Littrell.

Maybe I'm just a skeptic after the last 13 years of mostly suck have hardened me....but I don't know what you're seeing that has you so wound up on this comparison. Littrell has greatly improved our offensive production, but Mac dramatically improved our defense up until Skladany retired. We finished 2013 with the #8 ranked scoring defense and #17 ranked total defense. Right now, Littrell has our 2017 team ranked #25 in scoring offense and #12 in total offense. Both did (or are doing) a pretty damn good job respective to their area of expertise.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2013/leader/national/team/defense/split01/category10/sort01.html

The actual records are nearly identical, although Littrell has done this in 1 year while Mac took 2. By the numbers, most of this team is composed of Mac's players, while Mac's 2013 team had many Dodge holdovers in the 2-deep. There may be more Littrell recruits in the 2-deep, but this is splitting hairs to me. Neither coach did, or has done a good job on signing day according to the ranking sites. Having said that, they both signed impact JUCOs and sprinkled in a few gems. Heck, the best player on our team is Jeff Wilson, a former 2 star small town recruit that Mac brought here.

Edited October 3, 2017 by TIgreen01

MeanGreenTexan · October 3, 2017

39 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

Maybe I'm just a skeptic after the last 13 years of mostly suck have hardened me....but I don't know what you're seeing that has you so wound up on this comparison. Littrell has greatly improved our offensive production, but Mac dramatically improved our defense up until Skladany retired. We finished 2013 with the #8 ranked scoring defense and #17 ranked total defense. Right now, Littrell has our 2017 team ranked #25 in scoring offense and #12 in total offense. Both did (or are doing) a pretty damn good job respective to their area of expertise.

http://www.cfbstats.com/2013/leader/national/team/defense/split01/category10/sort01.html

The actual records are nearly identical, although Littrell has done this in 1 year while Mac took 2. By the numbers, most of this team is composed of Mac's players, while Mac's 2013 team had many Dodge holdovers in the 2-deep. There may be more Littrell recruits in the 2-deep, but this is splitting hairs to me. Neither coach did, or has done a good job on signing day according to the ranking sites. Having said that, they both signed impact JUCOs and sprinkled in a few gems. Heck, the best player on our team is Jeff Wilson, a former 2 star small town recruit that Mac brought here.

Coach Perry gets all the credit on this one.

TIgreen01 · October 3, 2017

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Coach Perry gets all the credit on this one.

Semantics. Unless you think that Littrell is the primary recruiter for everyone in both of his classes so far and doesn't delegate. The head coach gets the blame or the credit. That's just the way it goes.

Cerebus · October 3, 2017

9 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

Semantics. Unless you think that Littrell is the primary recruiter for everyone in both of his classes so far and doesn't delegate. The head coach gets the blame or the credit. That's just the way it goes.

The difference to me is that the most of the game changers on this team, both O and D, are SL recruits. That really wasn't true for Mac's teams.

TIgreen01 · October 3, 2017

32 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

The difference to me is that the most of the game changers on this team, both O and D, are SL recruits. That really wasn't true for Mac's teams.

There's no question that Mac's last 2 years were not good, but when your 2 best players going into the season (who did we take to media days to promote the program) are Jeff Wilson and McClain, you can't quite say that he left the cupboard completely bare. Dodge definitely left more in the cupboard, by comparison, but at the time that's not how people saw it. It took a few years for Mac to coach the team up and for a few of those guys to go play in the NFL. So Mac inherited a pretty talented squad, then augmented it the first few years to put together the 2013 team. From there, it all went to heck and Littrell had no choice but to go heavy JUCO to bring in impact guys. To his credit a lot of them have hit. No question Mac left us in a terrible place. But we're not comparing 5 years of Mac to 1.5 of Littrell. We're comparing what we knew in 2013 to what we know now of Littrell in 2017....or at least I am.

Edited October 3, 2017 by TIgreen01