Tearing down confederate monuments does not erase history

[Skipper]

On Aug. 26, confederate sympathizers descended on the Denton square protesting in favor of the statue of a confederate soldier in front of the courthouse. According to the Denton Record-Chronicle,

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[GTWT]

No it doesn't erase history, it rewrites history.  Instead of a war against Federal intrusion,it becomes a war to sustain slavery.  Instead of fighting for one's home, it becomes a war to sustain slavery.  Instead of a war to resist northern tyranny, it becomes a war to sustain slavery.  Tearing down the statues to southern heroes allows us to pretend the motives on both sides were simple.  If you believe the South was fighting just to maintain slavery you are sadly misinformed.  If you believe the North was fighting just to destroy slavery you are sadly misinformed.

[UNTFan23]

There are those who want to see the Jefferson Memorial lose its federal funding, and he is a Founding Father to our country.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Are we going to rename Fort Hood ... He ( John Hood )  was a confederate general....  Plus even after the civil war .. Fort Davis which was named for Jefferson Davis remained Fort Davis and was rebuilt after being destroyed by tribes in the area during the war... If they [ the US army at that time . ] didn't have a problem with the name ... why should we ???   ... What is next,  Bowie and Travis? ... they had owned slaves  and Travis had one in the Alamo with him.. .. . Apparently Austin owned some  at times also.. This situation is getting  ridiculous ... 

[SteaminWillieBeamin]

Structures that were put up during the Jim Crow era and Civil Rights era to honor the Confederacy and to try to hold back the tides of equality -- yes, those monuments can be taken down. These are not giant government structures to celebrate the United States history. There is a well documented reason for the surge in cheap mass produced Confederate monuments during those eras. Getting rid of those monuments does not erase history -- but it can go in a museum where all other history is stored/shared/learned. 

This is not rocket surgery. 

There is no slippery slope. 

If the monuments went up in a movement of popular opinion, they can come down by the same reasoning. If the popular opinion of a community no longer wants to glorify a loss of a war, they can do that. If you, personally, want to have your shrine to 'southern heritage' in your living room -- by all means -- do it. 

[DeepGreen]

Food for thought-

At what point will all Al Jolson movies be banned or destroyed?

[TheTastyGreek]

1 hour ago, DeepGreen said:

Food for thought-

At what point will all Al Jolson movies be banned or destroyed?

Never? Leni Riefenstahl and DW Griffith are still integral innovators and shapers of film history. And properly contextualized, warts and all. Their movies aren't banned. They're studied and recognized for their influence on the evolution of the form. 

But I doubt you'll see a statue of Blackface Al anywhere. Because celebration and reverence aren't the same as keeping and understanding history. 

[Stix]

What's next?  It became improper to use the term "Indian", and "Native American" took its place.  But the name "America" comes from the Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci.  So shouldn't "Native American" be just as bad?  They'll need to come up with something to replace "American".  Will there then be an effort to rename the continents of North & South America, and therefore "The United States of America"?

Just taking things to their conclusion; absurd and logical at the same time...

 

[NT91]

This is all  BS!!

the tail waging the dog!

Left wing is nuts!

[Censored by Laurie]

14 minutes ago, NT91 said:

This is all  BS!!

the tail waging the dog!

Left wing is nuts!

I mean...why do they even care so much about a dumb statue, right?

[KRAM1]

2 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I mean...why do they even care so much about a dumb statue, right?

Aren't you supposed to be traveling the world with your bride living in beautiful scenic places? Why are you on the internet with all that going on? We want "adventure stories" not this stuff.  Ply us with cool travel stories. I think you need your own thread. But, you were recently looking for a "bar back" job in some "god forsaken" location so you guys could "hang around" a civilized community for awhile. Of course you were telling everyone you were a libertarian and did not want to pay taxes on those mega earnings.  I think you just wanted a bed and hot water for awhile.  

Edit: And don't go all UNT90 on me here accusing me of divulging personal info. You gave it all away on Facebook. 😂😂

Edited September 18, 2017 by KRAM1

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, KRAM1 said:

Aren't you supposed to be traveling the world with your bride living in beautiful scenic places? Why are you on the internet with all that going on? We want "adventure stories" not this stuff.  Ply us with cool travel stories. I think you need your own thread. But, you were recently looking for a "bar back" job in some "god forsaken" location so you guys could "hang around" a civilized community for awhile. Of course you were telling everyone you were a libertarian and did not want to pay taxes on those mega earnings.  I think you just wanted a bed and hot water for awhile.  

Edit: And don't go all UNT90 on me here accusing me of divulging personal info. You gave it all away on Facebook. 😂😂

not that I see what any of this has to do with a confederate statue...

A. yes...the missus and I are traveling...six months in the states, followed likely by some 4-5 years abroad.
B. she's currently off doing a solo trip she's always wanted to do, so I've had some downtime...some I've spent fixing up the car, some I've spent streaming the last 3 UNT games from various bars and starbucks'. around California..some I spent looking for work because, frankly, after 3.5 months without it, I've kinda missed it...and in a few days I'll be helping with a re-model of a friend's (and UNT alum) coffee shop in apparently "god-forsaken" San Francisco...a city founded by catholic missionaries, named after a a monk and home to no fewer than 350 churches, 20 synagogues, 15 mosques and various other houses of worship the good lord(s) have I guess turned his back on because of...the gays(?)
C. after two straight weeks of camping or sleeping in my car, I actually have my internet, not to mention bed and hot shower presently...a lovely guest house of a Berkley professor right on California 1 in a hippie beach town in North Bay. 
D. I'm not here for your entertainment...and let's be honest...you've met the bulk of the people on here. "travel" for them consists of road UNT games, trips to see the grand-kids/parents or, at it's most adventurous...some shitty all-inclusive beach resort so their wives (or them) can take pictures of their feet on a lounge chair on a beach while they constantly talk louder to Mexican waiters the drunker they get on Tecate because they think it helps with the communication barrier (which likely doesn't exist...those waiters speak perfect English...they just think you're an asshole)

so ya. I guess that brings us back to the question...why are all these snowflake, safe-space, trigger-warning beta-cucks making such a big deal about some statues?

 

[CrackBackBlocka aka TFLF]

Look, again...we defeated the Confederates, we defeated the Nazis, we defeated the Soviet Union.  There is no need to glorify any of them publicly in America.  These were enemies of the United States.

The first set wanted to own and murder certain people.  The second set wanted to murder certain people.  The third set wanted to subjugate and murder certain people...including millions of their own people.

Whatever their "nuanced" reasons were, the whole of their causes were clearly immoral. 

[CMJ]

15 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

not that I see what any of this has to do with a confederate statue...

A. yes...the missus and I are traveling...six months in the states, followed likely by some 4-5 years abroad.
B. she's currently off doing a solo trip she's always wanted to do, so I've had some downtime...some I've spent fixing up the car, some I've spent streaming the last 3 UNT games from various bars and starbucks'. around California..some I spent looking for work because, frankly, after 3.5 months without it, I've kinda missed it...and in a few days I'll be helping with a re-model of a friend's (and UNT alum) coffee shop in apparently "god-forsaken" San Francisco...a city founded by catholic missionaries, named after a a monk and home to no fewer than 350 churches, 20 synagogues, 15 mosques and various other houses of worship the good lord(s) have I guess turned his back on because of...the gays(?)
C. after two straight weeks of camping or sleeping in my car, I actually have my internet, not to mention bed and hot shower presently...a lovely guest house of a Berkley professor right on California 1 in a hippie beach town in North Bay. 
D. I'm not here for your entertainment...and let's be honest...you've met the bulk of the people on here. "travel" for them consists of road UNT games, trips to see the grand-kids/parents or, at it's most adventurous...some shitty all-inclusive beach resort so their wives (or them) can take pictures of their feet on a lounge chair on a beach while they constantly talk louder to Mexican waiters the drunker they get on Tecate because they think it helps with the communication barrier (which likely doesn't exist...those waiters speak perfect English...they just think you're an asshole)

so ya. I guess that brings us back to the question...why are all these snowflake, safe-space, trigger-warning beta-cucks making such a big deal about some statues?

 

Hey- if you make it down to the LA area look me up.

[TheTastyGreek]

4 minutes ago, CMJ said:

Hey- if you make it down to the LA area look me up.

Can confirm. CMJ is good company. 

Watch out for @Shuke-D. He's a mustard fumbler. Could ruin his own pants... Could ruin yours. May be best to stay digital-only with him. 

[Censored by Laurie]

13 minutes ago, CrackBackBlocka said:

Look, again...we defeated the Confederates, we defeated the Nazis, we defeated the Soviet Union.  There is no need to glorify any of them publicly in America.  These were enemies of the United States.

The first set wanted to own and murder certain people.  The second set wanted to murder certain people.  The third set wanted to subjugate and murder certain people...including millions of their own people.

Whatever their "nuanced" reasons were, the whole of their causes were clearly immoral. 

look at this guy talking about superfluous and gratuitous representations and caricatures of real people without the slightest sense of irony

[KRAM1]

9 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

not that I see what any of this has to do with a confederate statue...

A. yes...the missus and I are traveling...six months in the states, followed likely by some 4-5 years abroad.
B. she's currently off doing a solo trip she's always wanted to do, so I've had some downtime...some I've spent fixing up the car, some I've spent streaming the last 3 UNT games from various bars and starbucks'. around California..some I spent looking for work because, frankly, after 3.5 months without it, I've kinda missed it...and in a few days I'll be helping with a re-model of a friend's (and UNT alum) coffee shop in apparently "god-forsaken" San Francisco...a city founded by catholic missionaries, named after a a monk and home to no fewer than 350 churches, 20 synagogues, 15 mosques and various other houses of worship the good lord(s) have I guess turned his back on because of...the gays(?)
C. after two straight weeks of camping or sleeping in my car, I actually have my internet, not to mention bed and hot shower presently...a lovely guest house of a Berkley professor right on California 1 in a hippie beach town in North Bay. 
D. I'm not here for your entertainment...and let's be honest...you've met the bulk of the people on here. "travel" for them consists of road UNT games, trips to see the grand-kids/parents or, at it's most adventurous...some shitty all-inclusive beach resort so their wives (or them) can take pictures of their feet on a lounge chair on a beach while they constantly talk louder to Mexican waiters the drunker they get on Tecate because they think it helps with the communication barrier (which likely doesn't exist...those waiters speak perfect English...they just think you're an asshole)

so ya. I guess that brings us back to the question...why are all these snowflake, safe-space, trigger-warning beta-cucks making such a big deal about some statues?

 

Wow! You got all this from my "in jest" post? I suggest you read it again when you aren't overly Starbucks caffeinated. It was done in fun.  Really sorry it did not come off as such to you. I re-read it, and do think it's pretty tame. But, here goes:

1. You sort of are here for our entertainment as you made a comment early on about posting updates of your travels from time to time during your adventure. So, there is that....

2. Travel is a choice. It does not make one superior (as you seem to imply) to anyone else. And, you really do not want to play the "places we have been" game with me or several others whom you mock here on GMG.Com.  

3.  Had no clue you were in San Fran, but gee, thanks for the Christian history education pastor.  The "god-forsaken" was a joke as your photos (the ones I have seen anyway) are from beautiful places...I believe I have complimented the photography as such.  You will note my comment about a bath and a bed...seems true based on your comments.

4. We are not here for your "holier than thou" mocking superiority because we do not choose to chunk it all and live in a tent or car or off the generosity of friends for 4-5 years. Your choice and good for you, but those going to Mexican beaches and drinking Tecate or going to visit grandkids are as welcome to that choice as you are to your tent. I am guessing that they are as happy with their choice as you are with yours. They simply do not choose to mock those that choose otherwise or to tell everyone how much more superior they might be given different travel choices.

So, ya. I guess that brings us back to those statues of dead guys that no one much cared about for, what, some 50+ years?  Why are all those folks making such a big deal out of it all just now? Better question...why haven't all the self-appointented "superior" folks figured it out before now? Surely they have been pondering the issue at Starbucks everywhere for years now?

Darn, man, lay off the caffeine! Not one thing in my post that should have created such a reaction. Lighten up..Lee's statue was taken down in Dallas. Now, everyone will just get along super swell. That was the problem after all.

[Shuke-D]

9 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

Watch out for @Shuke-D. He's a mustard fumbler. Could ruin his own pants... Could ruin yours. May be best to stay digital-only with him. 

Solved that problem couple of years ago.

[Shuke-D]

10 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

C. after two straight weeks of camping or sleeping in my car, I actually have my internet, not to mention bed and hot shower presently...a lovely guest house of a Berkley professor right on California 1 in a hippie beach town in North Bay. 

 

In all seriousness, if you head down to SoCal and are interested in recommendations for camping/hiking excursions in Death Valley/Joshua Tree area, PM me. I saw that you posted you were in Bishop recently. That and Lone Pine are my base of operations for Summer hikes in the Eastern Sierras. It was too late to recommend anything. But since I now see you're on an extended tour, let me know if you want any recs for this area. I'm actually not in LA but in the inland and have hiked these deserts for 20 years now. A lot of odd/cool/idiosyncratic stuff down here. 

[Censored by Laurie]

2 hours ago, KRAM1 said:

Wow! You got all this from my "in jest" post? I suggest you read it again when you aren't overly Starbucks caffeinated. It was done in fun.  Really sorry it did not come off as such to you. I re-read it, and do think it's pretty tame. But, here goes:

1. You sort of are here for our entertainment as you made a comment early on about posting updates of your travels from time to time during your adventure. So, there is that....

2. Travel is a choice. It does not make one superior (as you seem to imply) to anyone else. And, you really do not want to play the "places we have been" game with me or several others whom you mock here on GMG.Com.  

3.  Had no clue you were in San Fran, but gee, thanks for the Christian history education pastor.  The "god-forsaken" was a joke as your photos (the ones I have seen anyway) are from beautiful places...I believe I have complimented the photography as such.  You will note my comment about a bath and a bed...seems true based on your comments.

4. We are not here for your "holier than thou" mocking superiority because we do not choose to chunk it all and live in a tent or car or off the generosity of friends for 4-5 years. Your choice and good for you, but those going to Mexican beaches and drinking Tecate or going to visit grandkids are as welcome to that choice as you are to your tent. I am guessing that they are as happy with their choice as you are with yours. They simply do not choose to mock those that choose otherwise or to tell everyone how much more superior they might be given different travel choices.

So, ya. I guess that brings us back to those statues of dead guys that no one much cared about for, what, some 50+ years?  Why are all those folks making such a big deal out of it all just now? Better question...why haven't all the self-appointented "superior" folks figured it out before now? Surely they have been pondering the issue at Starbucks everywhere for years now?

Darn, man, lay off the caffeine! Not one thing in my post that should have created such a reaction. Lighten up..Lee's statue was taken down in Dallas. Now, everyone will just get along super swell. That was the problem after all.

wow! you got all that from my (mostly) "in jest" post? I suggest you read it again when you don't have your beer glasses on

[TheTastyGreek]

8 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

wow! you got all that from my (mostly) "in jest" post? I suggest you read it again when you don't have your beer glasses on

I just don't understand why someone would get so weirdly, bizarrely, specifically personal out of nowhere like that. 

I don't understand what prompted it. I don't understand what purpose it was meant to serve. And I sure don't understand how any of it connects to confederate statues. 

Shame on... you? 

[KRAM1]

38 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

wow! you got all that from my (mostly) "in jest" post? I suggest you read it again when you don't have your beer glasses on

Nice try...not buying it.  Thanks for playing.

24 minutes ago, TheTastyGreek said:

I just don't understand why someone would get so weirdly, bizarrely, specifically personal out of nowhere like that. 

I don't understand what prompted it. I don't understand what purpose it was meant to serve. And I sure don't understand how any of it connects to confederate statues. 

You rarely understand. Expected.

[UNTLifer]

On 9/1/2017 at 2:56 PM, SteaminWillieBeamin said:

Structures that were put up during the Jim Crow era and Civil Rights era to honor the Confederacy and to try to hold back the tides of equality -- yes, those monuments can be taken down. These are not giant government structures to celebrate the United States history. There is a well documented reason for the surge in cheap mass produced Confederate monuments during those eras. Getting rid of those monuments does not erase history -- but it can go in a museum where all other history is stored/shared/learned. 

This is not rocket surgery. 

There is no slippery slope. 

If the monuments went up in a movement of popular opinion, they can come down by the same reasoning. If the popular opinion of a community no longer wants to glorify a loss of a war, they can do that. If you, personally, want to have your shrine to 'southern heritage' in your living room -- by all means -- do it. 

So what is public opinion on these statues?  Would love to see a vote.

[MeanGreenTexan]

I think someone here is confusing "in jest" with "bust balls".

[UNTFan23]

One thing seems certain with the removal of these statues: it'll cost taxpayers, as a whole, millions of dollars to have all references (street names, statues, parks, whatever else) of the Civil War removed. Case in point: it cost the City of Dallas at least $400,000 to remove the Lee statue from a downtown park.

Whether the removal of these statues will have any positive affect on anything is to be determined.

Edited September 18, 2017 by UNTFan23