Group of 17 Explanation

BTG_Fan1 · August 10, 2017

Im going to assume that the 17 are still present at UNT, but are now limited with the contact that they have?

MCMLXXX · August 10, 2017

19 hours ago, AustinFromUNT said:

So as someone who is comparatively new to the whole UNT athletics scene could someone please explain to me in detail what the group of 17 is. I've seen it referenced several times but still have no clue what it even is. Thanks.

Ask not who the 17 are. The real question is will you step up and be 18?

TreeFiddy · August 10, 2017

6 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

Im going to assume that the 17 are still present at UNT, but are now limited with the contact that they have?

Not really. For a great idea of who they are, look here: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ntex/genrel/auto_pdf/2015-16/misc_non_event/PlatinumEagle.pdf

And the number isn't really 17, that is just the number that one particular angry elf fixated on a couple of years ago and it became the moniker for the large donors.

AustinFromUNT · August 10, 2017

3 minutes ago, TreeFiddy said:

Not really. For a great idea of who they are, look here: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ntex/genrel/auto_pdf/2015-16/misc_non_event/PlatinumEagle.pdf

And the number isn't really 17, that is just the number that one particular angry elf fixated on a couple of years ago and it became the moniker for the large donors.

Very nice. Although I doubt D-Mac still gives us that sweet $15k 😂

untjim1995 · August 10, 2017

1 hour ago, TreeFiddy said:

Not really. For a great idea of who they are, look here: http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/ntex/genrel/auto_pdf/2015-16/misc_non_event/PlatinumEagle.pdf

And the number isn't really 17, that is just the number that one particular angry elf fixated on a couple of years ago and it became the moniker for the large donors.

That number, 17, came directly from the post of one of them on here.

Ben Gooding · August 10, 2017

1 hour ago, AustinFromUNT said:

Very nice. Although I doubt D-Mac still gives us that sweet $15k 😂

No. He should be giving us his last 2 years of his contract in full though. As should RV. We were stolen from.

RV had a write-in in his contract that every time HE gave a coach an extension or raise HE received a raise/extension.

*For the record, WB giving SL a raise and extension is ALMOST as premature as RV giving DM a raise and extension following the 2013 season. Neither should have happened. One has already bitten in the ass pretty hard. If after year 2, progress rears his head then I would be comfortable to give a buyout-tied extension and raise to SL. Now, we are locked in for at least 3 years with SL. It's just bad business that this athletic department has already seen. You don't give extensions unless 1) You are 100% comfortable with that coach 2) Someone is after your coach or 3) He is nearing the end of a successful contract. Anything else should be looked at as naive and simple minded. JMO.

untjim1995 · August 10, 2017

Just now, Ben Gooding said:

No. He should be giving us his last 2 years of his contract in full though. As should RV. We were stolen from.

RV had a write-in in his contract that every time HE gave a coach an extension or raise HE received a raise/extension.

*For the record, WB giving SL a raise and extension is ALMOST as premature as RV giving DM a raise and extension following the 2013 season. Neither should have happened. One has already bitten in the ass pretty hard. If after year 2, progress rears his head then I would be comfortable to give a buyout-tied extension and raise to SL. Now, we are locked in for at least 3 years with SL. It's just bad business that this athletic department has already seen. You don't give extensions unless 1) You are 100% comfortable with that coach 2) Someone is after your coach or 3) He is nearing the end of a successful contract. Anything else should be looked at as naive and simple minded. JMO.

You're seeing just what we told you to get used to around here. After about 20 years of wanting us to win more than the university did at both football and hoops, I just realized that I've got to follow them because they are my alma mater and just deal with the laughs and comments from others around me. It's hard when UNT alumni I know openly root for UT, A&M, OU, Tech, etc...it's harder when those fans tell me that UNT would kill them if they played us in a band concert or art exhibit. But it is what it is. Most people who try to care just end up giving up and finding their Florida, Alabama, LSU, etc...and move forward. In some cases, the fan finally gives up after years of following the team and goes crazy--see UNT90. It becomes maddening at some point, but you either stick with it because it's yours or you just walk away.

Ryan Munthe · August 10, 2017

The 17 are the people who keep this program financially afloat.

It's a joke on here because many of them defended RV because, admittedly, the AD used to operate open-door with them.

That's one part of the disdain, but mainly it's jealousy.

Ben Gooding · August 10, 2017

25 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

You're seeing just what we told you to get used to around here. After about 20 years of wanting us to win more than the university did at both football and hoops, I just realized that I've got to follow them because they are my alma mater and just deal with the laughs and comments from others around me. It's hard when UNT alumni I know openly root for UT, A&M, OU, Tech, etc...it's harder when those fans tell me that UNT would kill them if they played us in a band concert or art exhibit. But it is what it is. Most people who try to care just end up giving up and finding their Florida, Alabama, LSU, etc...and move forward. In some cases, the fan finally gives up after years of following the team and goes crazy--see UNT90. It becomes maddening at some point, but you either stick with it because it's yours or you just walk away.

Well, I stick with things.

It's difficult for me because both of my parents are UF Alum. I grew up a die-hard UF fan. Attended games regularly and if I am in the general vicinity of the Southeast I still go to games. I follow the UF program still to this day just as closely as I follow this program. Watching success of an athletic program and arguably one of the best ran AD's in the country then coming to this University and starting to fall into the flow of this program, it makes it that much more difficult to watch the albatross that is the AD unfold here at UNT. But like I said, I stick with things. The expectations at Florida that I grew accustomed to just aren't the same here. And, IMO, expectations from a fan base is the true driving force of a program. It's frustrating. We get giddy about 5-win seasons, while there it immediately puts you on the hot seat..If not terminated.

Point is, you don't smoodge with the coaches as the AD. Doing what RV did with extensions/raises and now what WB did is unprecedented. No one wanted SL. No one wanted DM. As a coach, I think most people have bought into SL. But on a dime, this program can flourish and take off or it can crash and burn 2015 style. When a program is in this kind of transition or instability or uncertainty, you don't hand out raises and extensions. It makes absolutely 0 sense.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Ben Gooding

UNTLifer · August 10, 2017

6 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

No one wanted SL.

And you know this how?

Ben Gooding · August 10, 2017

4 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

The 17 are the people who keep this program financially afloat.

It's a joke on here because many of them defended RV because, admittedly, the AD used to operate open-door with them.

That's one part of the disdain, but mainly it's jealousy.

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3 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

And you know this how?

Because if someone did, odds are he'd be gone. And SOMEONE would've caught wind of it.

Aldo · August 10, 2017

6 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Because if someone did, odds are he'd be gone.

Uh we hired him.

It's only been like a year and a half and the jury is still out.

Who's going to come around with a million dollar contract to take him away from here after a 5-7 season? This is a point that isn't a positive *or* a negative.

Ben Gooding · August 10, 2017

7 minutes ago, Aldo said:

Uh we hired him.

It's only been like a year and a half and the jury is still out.

Who's going to come around with a million dollar contract to take him away from here after a 5-7 season? This is a point that isn't a positive *or* a negative.

I know. That's what I was saying. Lifer was inferring that maybe someone could've possibly wanted him. I know we hired him. I meant no one wanted him after his 1st season here.

forevereagle · August 10, 2017

50 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

That number, 17, came directly from the post of one of them on here.

And that post was in jest because it was a count of the number of suites at Apogee.

Got5onIt · August 10, 2017

RV should've been fired along with Todd Dodge after year 2. But that's another story.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 10, 2017

17 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

RV certainly could not take any credit for DD's success, he didn't hire or support him.

I also would limit my praise of RV's relative to facilities. I give him credit for Apogee although I question the low level of donations that went into the construction. Overall NT facilities are better than when RV started, however he was here for over 15 years. Other than Apogee, most of the RV''s adds were hardly first class and all apparently were very poorly maintained.

The 17 as stated referred to NT's biggest financial supporters. Some backed RV to the end, but I doubt it was anywhere close to 17. Most are now demonstrating that they were always NT supporters first and that is what is important.

The so-called 17 were villainized by a few on here because they supported RV or Benford. Something I don't understand, heavy donors are the backbone of any college athletic department and they certainly can support the people or projects they chose.

Agree, 164% But, you know how people are...just watch politicians and their sycophants...everything is the fault of "the rich." If there is blame to be had, it's the people who are actually doing the work - and, in college athletics, most of that work depends on giving. For better or worse, it's "the rich" that have the money to give.

If you can't respect the administrators, at least respect the people who voluntarily give millions of their own dollars away...for your entertainment a few weekend out the year!

Here's the other part of the people who disparage donors, saying, "I'd stop giving funds unless they fired "so and so"...if you stop giving, you're hurting the program and athletes.

Bitching is one thing. It's your/our right to bitch and be heard. Fine, all good and well. But, why punish the athletes and program just because you have a (real or imagined) beef with one guy in the athletic department?

untjim1995 · August 10, 2017

35 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

And that post was in jest because it was a count of the number of suites at Apogee.

Maybe it was in jest, but those 17 suites made up 17 people who propped up RV for a long time. When he hired Todd Dodge, most here thought it was a high risk worth taking a shot on. It didn't pan out, but we had Johnny Jones' team to enjoy and that was going pretty strong. But it was his hiring and continued support of Tony Benford that was the final nail in the coffin for a lot of us. He destroyed the one program that looked promising going forward, similar to the trajectory that MUTS had been on before they broke thru the last couple of years in the NCAA Tournament. The hiring of Dan McCarney was a good hire at the time, but the extension he gave immediately after the HoD Bowl (which gave him an extension) was a huge mistake and it cost the UNT 17 and the university a ton--and eventually his job security evaporated.

An AD at any school cannot let the two main revenue programs suck simultaneously or they will get fired almost immediately. Heck, at most places, if you cannot fix one of those sports within 2-3 years, the AD gets the hook. Here, it took us over 4 years to fire RV for the reality of watching the hoops program get nuked and watching the football program languish for a decade.

forevereagle · August 10, 2017

7 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

17 suites made up 17 people

Do they? There are no corporate or group purchases there? Are we really sure that there are really 17 people? This was always a myth, one that is continually propagated on here, that needs to go away.

untjim1995 · August 10, 2017

4 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

Do they? There are no corporate or group purchases there? Are we really sure that there are really 17 people? This was always a myth, one that is continually propagated on here, that needs to go away.

At this point, it really doesn't matter anymore. RV is gone, these donors showed that they will no longer allow us to have to wait until there is one yea or less on a contract to buyout the coach who is losing, and the university's current President and AD seem to be moving in the right direction.

One thing is certain--that time of suckitude killed off the momentum that basketball had, but a new coach and any kind of success will bring that back up--its much easier to rebuild in hoops than it is in football. SL has years to rebuild this thing up from the ashes--even if it takes many seasons to try. McCasland probably has 3 years max to do the same to show progress...

GrandGreen · August 10, 2017

1 hour ago, Ben Gooding said:

Well, I stick with things.

It's difficult for me because both of my parents are UF Alum. I grew up a die-hard UF fan. Attended games regularly and if I am in the general vicinity of the Southeast I still go to games. I follow the UF program still to this day just as closely as I follow this program. Watching success of an athletic program and arguably one of the best ran AD's in the country then coming to this University and starting to fall into the flow of this program, it makes it that much more difficult to watch the albatross that is the AD unfold here at UNT. But like I said, I stick with things. The expectations at Florida that I grew accustomed to just aren't the same here. And, IMO, expectations from a fan base is the true driving force of a program. It's frustrating. We get giddy about 5-win seasons, while there it immediately puts you on the hot seat..If not terminated.

Point is, you don't smoodge with the coaches as the AD. Doing what RV did with extensions/raises and now what WB did is unprecedented. No one wanted SL. No one wanted DM. As a coach, I think most people have bought into SL. But on a dime, this program can flourish and take off or it can crash and burn 2015 style. When a program is in this kind of transition or instability or uncertainty, you don't hand out raises and extensions. It makes absolutely 0 sense.

Well the expectation of a state flagship school and a g5 are vastly different and yet similar in some aspects. The resource and media level of a G5 is not comparable to a P5 state flagship school. However, the desire to win against peer programs and the necessity to match those peers in resources should be the same.

NT was not on my athletic radar growing up, it was all SWC in those days in Texas. Athletics had absolutely nothing to do with my selection of NT. NT became my the school I follow because it is the university I attended and graduated from. I have followed and supported NT since that point and frankly wouldn't walk across the street to see any of those ex-SWC schools unless they are playing NT.

Not sure why you think no one wanted McCarney or Littrell. It is my feel that the AD played a limited role in hiring either one. Both were recommended by search firms and approved probably by a committee that included the AD. On paper, McCarney was a big step up for the program at the time.

I do agree with your point about the raises, they were exactly alike, premature and unnecessary. Neither coach was likely to leave and even if they where; that new contract would not stop them. The scary thing is neither had or have shown any ability to win recruiting battles against their peers. Not exactly a factor that normally is rewarded.

McCarney ended up costing NT a bundle of money and actually took the program down from the raise point. We hope Littrell is a massive success, but the new contract only insures that it will cost NT a lot more money if he is not.

Ben Gooding · August 10, 2017

1 minute ago, GrandGreen said:

Well the expectation of a state flagship school and a g5 are vastly different and yet similar in some aspects. The resource and media level of a G5 is not comparable to a P5 state flagship school. However, the desire to win against peer programs and the necessity to match those peers in resources should be the same.

NT was not on my athletic radar growing up, it was all SWC in those days in Texas. Athletics had absolutely nothing to do with my selection of NT. NT became my the school I follow because it is the university I attended and graduated from. I have followed and supported NT since that point and frankly wouldn't walk across the street to see any of those ex-SWC schools unless they are playing NT.

Not sure why you think no one wanted McCarney or Littrell. It is my feel that the AD played a limited role in hiring either one. Both were recommended by search firms and approved probably by a committee that included the AD. On paper, McCarney was a big step up for the program at the time.

I do agree with your point about the raises, they were exactly alike, premature and unnecessary. Neither coach was likely to leave and even if they where; that new contract would not stop them. The scary thing is neither had or have shown any ability to win recruiting battles against their peers. Not exactly a factor that normally is rewarded.

McCarney ended up costing NT a bundle of money and actually took the program down from the raise point. We hope Littrell is a massive success, but the new contract only insures that it will cost NT a lot more money if he is not.

Let me clarify...No one wanted DM before his contact extension after 2013 that has us in the current financial predicament we are in. And no one wanted SL after his first year at UNT. I am not saying that NO ONE wanted them EVER.

BTG_Fan1 · August 10, 2017

We have no idea if SL was wanted or if he wasn't, nor will we ever find out either but there is a reason as to why he got a 1-year extension basically..

WB even told Vito it in an article that BV wrote, it was to re-work and redo SL entire contract... WB and SL threw away the one he did with RV, and did it over... Again, we have no idea if other schools came around talking to SL or even SL agent, and we will never know!

The point is SL did alot with very little, and showed the ability to find little known guys and develop them on the field and on the coaching staff.. SL has had 4 coaches picked from his staff go to P5 schools, and another that was either ideals didn't match/performance/ wanted to move on instead of staying so long at 1 place in Perry... He had a roster that was not to his styles in terms of offense or defense and got them to a bowl, he restored some confidence in the players that were here for the Portland State blow out.. SL inherted a program that was sinking faster than ever imaged, and has turned it around and given hope to fans, students, and alumni.

We can compare SL and Dmac, but SL is trending up and Dmac was not someone who was going to be hired away by a P5..

Ben Gooding · August 10, 2017

Just now, BTG_Fan1 said:

We have no idea if SL was wanted or if he wasn't, nor will we ever find out either but there is a reason as to why he got a 1-year extension basically..

WB even told Vito it in an article that BV wrote, it was to re-work and redo SL entire contract... WB and SL threw away the one he did with RV, and did it over... Again, we have no idea if other schools came around talking to SL or even SL agent, and we will never know!

The point is SL did alot with very little, and showed the ability to find little known guys and develop them on the field and on the coaching staff.. SL has had 4 coaches picked from his staff go to P5 schools, and another that was either ideals didn't match/performance/ wanted to move on instead of staying so long at 1 place in Perry... He had a roster that was not to his styles in terms of offense or defense and got them to a bowl, he restored some confidence in the players that were here for the Portland State blow out.. SL inherted a program that was sinking faster than ever imaged, and has turned it around and given hope to fans, students, and alumni.

We can compare SL and Dmac, but SL is trending up and Dmac was not someone who was going to be hired away by a P5..

We don't know. But don't you think WB would be like, "Guys, we re-worked his contract because schools were sniffing around and we think we have the right guy in SL." Because if he doesn't put a statement out like that and we know that he didn't if that is in fact the case, it makes him look like how we looks with this whole facility thing and the Liberty series...incompetent. And something tells me that we would know if schools were sniffing around. Common sense says they wouldn't. But if they were, someone, the sniffing school or our school, would've caught wind of it and we would've heard about it. It was premature, but you will defend until you are blue in the face. And that's your prerogative.

To note, it doesn't matter what SL did in his first year or what he inherited. You don't extend after year 1 in a 5 year contract when this much uncertainty. If you want to give a raise, give it. But don't handcuff the program. I figured you knuckleheads would agree given what JUST happened to this program. But, no. It's crazy.

Harry · August 10, 2017

3 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

We have no idea if SL was wanted or if he wasn't, nor will we ever find out either but there is a reason as to why he got a 1-year extension basically..

True but we have a pretty good idea as to why it happened. The guy lost a big chunk of his staff after leading a 1-win team to a bowl. You can spin that all day with the tired old G5 argument "well that means we're hiring great coaches" but it isn't good to have that happen so early in the regime. That type of key turnover so early on is concerning and can affect recruiting and many other things in terms of the building of the team itself. It probably made Litty feel like he was on an island. Secondly, we know that some power schools with big budgets could have been sniffing around. There are some OC's making >$1 Mill out there. Thirdly, Wren didn't hire Seth -- and while they may be the best of friends now, if I am Seth's agent I want financial assurances that I will be made whole if things go south which unfortunately has been our track record. What if Smatty gets a bigger gig? What if the new chancellor is related to Al Hurley? What if the job of a lifetime opens up. There are a lot of variables that have to be considered here.

Here are some pieces from the @Brett Vito article:

Quote

Littrell's new contract includes a provision that would require UNT to pay 100 percent of his base salary for the first 36 months of his contract and 75 percent of the remaining 24 months, if the school elects to terminate him without cause. UNT would be required to pay the full 100 percent for the final 24 months if the Mean Green win seven regular-season games in any season during the agreement.

The original contract also included set buyout amounts that dwindled over the life of the contract had he left the school. The amounts he would pay started at $1.5 million in 2016 and dropped to $1 million in 2017, $600,000 in 2018, $300,000 in 2019 and the remainder of his base salary in 2020.

Those amounts have been replaced. Under the new deal, Littrell would be required to pay a percentage of his remaining guaranteed compensation to UNT. Littrell would be required to pay 40 percent of his guaranteed salary and incentives if he leaves the school before Feb. 1, 2018. The percentage declines in each subsequent year -- 35 percent in 2019, 30 percent in 2020 and 20 percent after Feb. 1, 2020.

The deal includes a provision that would reduce the amount Littrell would be required to pay if he elects to leave the school by 50 percent if Baker or school President Neal Smatresk are no longer at the UNT at the time he leaves the program.

Link: http://www.dentonrc.com/sports/mean-green/2017/05/30/littrell-make-900000-base-salary-improved-incentives-new-contract

letsgiveacheer · August 10, 2017

I just visited the current Mean Green Club page and besides being a bit of a mess, it appears the membership list has not been updated since June 2015.

http://www.meangreensports.com/sports/mg-club/ntex-mg-club-body.html