Liberty University a future CUSA program?

[GTWT]

Just now, KRAM1 said:

And, I have absolutely no problem with you having a problem with that. But, pray tell (see what I did there! 😂😂) what in the hell does that have with playing them in a football game? It is a football game...not a brain washing in creationism!

Any association with Liberty (or Jim Jones or ORU) legitimizes that institution.  And puts us on their level.

[KRAM1]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

Any association with Liberty (or Jim Jones or ORU) legitimizes that institution.  And puts us on their level.

Well, that certainly is one opinion. I just happen to hold an entirely different one. It is a football game period. Nothing more nothing less.  My opinion...  we will just have to agree to disagree.

[GreenMachine]

2 hours ago, GTWT said:

Any association with Liberty (or Jim Jones or ORU) legitimizes that institution.  And puts us on their level.

so we need play Alabama to put us on their level?

[UNTFan23]

2 hours ago, GTWT said:

Any association with Liberty (or Jim Jones or ORU) legitimizes that institution.  And puts us on their level.

North Texas has shared athletic conferences with schools who aren't anywhere close to academic peers. It doesn't make those schools suddenly better in their academics and NT's worse ... except by one's own perception.

[GTWT]

1 hour ago, UNTFan23 said:

North Texas has shared athletic conferences with schools who aren't anywhere close to academic peers. It doesn't make those schools suddenly better in their academics and NT's worse ... except by one's own perception.

This isn't about being 'academic' peers.  It's about academic legitimacy.  An institution that requires its biology instructors disavow the fundamental theory of biology is philosophically & academically bankrupt.

2 hours ago, KRAM1 said:

Well, that certainly is one opinion. I just happen to hold an entirely different one. It is a football game period. Nothing more nothing less.  My opinion...  we will just have to agree to disagree.

Honest question.  Would you object to playing North Korea in the Olympics? 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

On 7/3/2017 at 5:39 AM, GTWT said:

Deep & Salsa Verde,

I have no problem with playing Baylor (though I wish they would get their acts together), or BYU, or Notre Dame.  Those schools haven't rejected science.  Liberty has.  This isn't about politics - this is about educational philosophy.   Baylor, BYU, & Notre Dame are main-stream universities - they teach accepted history & science - legitimate science.  They don't insist their professors accept creationism.  They don't insist their religious interpretations be believed by everyone associated with them.  They allow their faculty & students to think for themselves - even if that means questioning authority

Liberty can require their students, staff, & faculty profess any dogma they want.  But UNT & other universities shouldn't legitimize Liberty by associating with them in any way - including athletics. 

My maternal grandfather was a chemist who also was also an elder at his church.  Having some sort of Christian faith doesn't mean you "reject science."  In fact, my grandfather was like most Christians.  His belief was that scientific discovery was a way of man finding out how God made things work.  

I'll show my age, but hopefully educate a few.  I went to a local Christian school in the 7th and 8th grade.  In the science classes there, we never learned about Creationism.  We learned about Big Bang and about a half dozen other theories.  They knew that we already knew about Creationism, so they taught us other theories.

I've never understood why all schools can't be like that school.  No theory has ever been proven beyond doubt when it comes to the origin of the universe.  And, yet, it's the thing that drives so many people apart.

There are Christian schools and universities - and, corporations, such as the one my grandfather worked for - full of people who are both scientists and Christians.  You close your mind when you shut out other people simply based on their view of origins.  

----

Now, as far as being in an athletic conference with Liberty, I just think you chalk it up to loss for us.  It's not us moving up...it's yet another start up added to where we are.  We've already been in conferences who are full of that.  

If you take on Liberty, I don't see how you then keep out an ACU, which is also quickly being infused with athletic dollars.  

It does make me sad for us. 

[KRAM1]

2 hours ago, GTWT said:

 

Honest question.  Would you object to playing North Korea in the Olympics? 

Honest answer...not in the least. In fact, we played them in the last Workd Cup as a "unified team" as I recall. It is about sport and sporting fair play...not about politics. You run into a lot of "principles of the things" when you mix up things like this. I did not favor the last Olympic boycott because Russia was in Afghanistan either...gee, look who has been in Afghanistan now for many years.

And, Liberty does not "force" their professors...these professors know exactly what they are getting into when they take the job...willingly take I might add.  Like public school teachers who glady accept a position knowing full well the salary and benefits and then loudly start complaining that they are under paid. I agree that they definitely are under paid, but one knew the pay scale going in!  These Liberty biology profs know the drill going in and one must believe they agree with it or they would not have taken the job in the first place.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

51 minutes ago, KRAM1 said:

Honest answer...not in the least. In fact, we played them in the last Workd Cup as a "unified team" as I recall. It is about sport and sporting fair play...not about politics. You run into a lot of "principles of the things" when you mix up things like this. I did not favor the last Olympic boycott because Russia was in Afghanistan either...gee, look who has been in Afghanistan now for many years.

And, Liberty does not "force" their professors...these professors know exactly what they are getting into when they take the job...willingly take I might add.  Like public school teachers who glady accept a position knowing full well the salary and benefits and then loudly start complaining that they are under paid. I agree that they definitely are under paid, but one knew the pay scale going in!  These Liberty biology profs know the drill going in and one must believe they agree with it or they would not have taken the job in the first place.

On both points...

...similar to the former Soviet Union and Cuba, getting their athletes out of their country gives them the opportunity to defect.  I'm for saving as many people under oppression as possible.

...the word "forced" is overused these days.  If you are applying for a position at Liberty, they don't hide their beliefs from you.  It also ignores the fact that, as stated earlier, there are scientists who also happen to be Christian.  It is not a mutually exclusive concept.  You will even find physics departments at Christian schools and universities.

Don't understand why we can't co-exist if we disagree on a thing or two in life.  Years ago, and maybe I'm naive to think it was not that many years ago, you didn't have to draw a line in the sand on every single topic.  You could hold a view.  Your friends, family, and coworkers may hold a different view.  And, all could live and/or work together.

The world has gotten too strident because the extremes have taken over everywhere - politically, academically, athletically.

It shows up in athletics in this way:  everything has to be perfect.

We have to have instant replay all the time, every game.  Game 77 in a 162 game baseball season for teams 15 games out of first place...there can be no human on the part of the umpire.

Also in baseball...if the pitcher takes 37 second between a pitch instead of 29, it's a travesty.  Like, hey...go back and watch Rookie Bob Welch's strike out of Reggie Jackson in the first or second game of the 1978 World Series.  Does it matter how long it took between each pitch? 

That at bat lasted a little of five minutes with eight pitches, some foul offs, Reggie going in and out of the box, before Welch finally struck him out to end the game.  Who gives a f*ck?  Today, the "it's all got to be right, and within a certain time" douchebags.

Same with everything else.  If you can't handle someone having a different point of view, sheesh...grow up.  Don't like baseball?  Watch something else.  Don't like this politicians or that political party?  Have it out at the next election. 



 

[GTWT]

2 hours ago, KRAM1 said:

Honest answer...not in the least.

We really must agree to disagree.  I believe we were wrong to participate in the 1936 Olympics in Hitler's Germany & I think we would be wrong to play Kim Jung-un's Korea in soccer.  You shouldn't legitimize those kinds of evil.  Maybe pseudoscience is a lesser evil than tyrannical governments, but it's still an evil.  No legitimate university should be associated with the teaching of ideas that are so demonstrably wrong.

Edited July 13, 2017 by GTWT

[UNTLifer]

17 hours ago, GTWT said:

We really must agree to disagree.  I believe we were wrong to participate in the 1936 Olympics in Hitler's Germany & I think we would be wrong to play Kim Jung-un's Korea in soccer.  You shouldn't legitimize those kinds of evil.  Maybe pseudoscience is a lesser evil than tyrannical governments, but it's still an evil.  No legitimate university should be associated with the teaching of ideas that are so demonstrably wrong.

But then Jessie Owens would have never been able to "stick it to" Hitler and his German followers.

You keep mentioning Liberty's pseudoscience.  What are they teaching?  Too lazy to go look.

[GTWT]

32 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

But then Jessie Owens would have never been able to "stick it to" Hitler and his German followers.

You keep mentioning Liberty's pseudoscience.  What are they teaching?  Too lazy to go look.

creation 'science'.

If they teach Genesis in a theology course that's fine.  However, Liberty requires all science faculty to sign a statement that they accept a literal interpretation of the Bible - and that includes a young earth (~6 K years) & special creation of all life.  That's what the students in their biology classes are taught.

As others have pointed out above, you can be a Christian, be a theist, and still accept the evidence that supports the scientific theory of evolution.  Many biologists do, including biologists at BYU, Baylor, ND, & other respectable universities associated with the Christian religion.  Those scientists find ways to reconcile their religious beliefs with their understanding that Earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago & that all life shares a common ancestor.  Liberty doesn't accept this reconciliation.  Liberty requires their biblical interpretations be taught as scientific fact.  That's pseudoscience,

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

On 7/13/2017 at 6:39 AM, GTWT said:

Any association with Liberty (or Jim Jones or ORU) legitimizes that institution.  And puts us on their level.

Jim Jones?

You've lost me.  Nothing about ORU or Liberty - or their founders - is anything like Jim Jones.

Edited July 14, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[Mean Green 93-98]

5 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Jim Jones?

You've lost me.  Nothing about ORU or Liberty - or their founders - is anything like Jim Jones.

I assume he means Bob, not Jim.

But "All life shares a common ancestor" = pseudoscience.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

creation 'science'.

If they teach Genesis in a theology course that's fine.  However, Liberty requires all science faculty to sign a statement that they accept a literal interpretation of the Bible - and that includes a young earth (~6 K years) & special creation of all life.  That's what the students in their biology classes are taught.

As others have pointed out above, you can be a Christian, be a theist, and still accept the evidence that supports the scientific theory of evolution.  Many biologists do, including biologists at BYU, Baylor, ND, & other respectable universities associated with the Christian religion.  Those scientists find ways to reconcile their religious beliefs with their understanding that Earth formed about 4.5 billion years ago & that all life shares a common ancestor.  Liberty doesn't accept this reconciliation.  Liberty requires their biblical interpretations be taught as scientific fact.  That's pseudoscience,

So?  What makes you think a scientist who doesn't believe the young earth theory would be required to teach at Liberty anyway? 

I know this may be shocking, but no one is required to apply for faculty positions at Liberty.  It is voluntary.  Therefore, they are not "making" anyone do anything that would be shocking to them. 

If UNT decided to require their science faculty to sign a young earth acceptance, that would be controversial because it is a state school.  Liberty, a private, Christian school is obviously going to be different.

And, that's fine.  No one is coerced to attend Liberty or teach at Liberty.  It's a choice.

Personally, I think Liberty cuts off a legitimate line of scientific inquiry with their young earth decision; but, it's their school with their money, and, therefore, their prerogative.

My objection to Liberty is simply that if they join our conference, it shows that we are going nowhere, and are in a conference going nowhere.  This has already been proven time and again by the start-up and move-ups C-USA already let in under former C-USA commish Britton Banowsky. 

Adding Liberty would simply mean that the current commissioner isn't any more serious about making the conference more competitive than Banowsky was.   

2 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

I assume he means Bob, not Jim.

But "All life shares a common ancestor" = pseudoscience.

I don't know if it's pseudoscience, but I do believe it is wrong to pronounce it correct and stop all other inquiry.  In my view the folks on the "only Evolution" side of the ledger are as guilty of having closed minds about true scientific inquiry as they accuse the "only Creationism" folk of being.

And, again, I think it is ridiculous to make this area of science a zero sum game.  No one was at the creation, whether it was thousands of years ago or billions.  So, anything out there is a theory and nothing more.  Study all angles, please.

 

[GTWT]

12 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

So?  What makes you think a scientist who doesn't believe the young earth theory would be required to teach at Liberty anyway? 

I know this may be shocking, but no one is required to apply for faculty positions at Liberty.  It is voluntary.  Therefore, they are not "making" anyone do anything that would be shocking to them. 

If UNT decided to require their science faculty to sign a young earth acceptance, that would be controversial because it is a state school.  Liberty, a private, Christian school is obviously going to be different.

And, that's fine.  No one is coerced to attend Liberty or teach at Liberty.  It's a choice.

Personally, I think Liberty cuts off a legitimate line of scientific inquiry with their young earth decision; but, it's their school with their money, and, therefore, their prerogative.

My objection to Liberty is simply that if they join our conference, it shows that we are going nowhere, and are in a conference going nowhere.  This has already been proven time and again by the start-up and move-ups C-USA already let in under former C-USA commish Britton Banowsky. 

Adding Liberty would simply mean that the current commissioner isn't any more serious about making the conference more competitive than Banowsky was.   

I don't know if it's pseudoscience, but I do believe it is wrong to pronounce it correct and stop all other inquiry.  In my view the folks on the "only Evolution" side of the ledger are as guilty of having closed minds about true scientific inquiry as they accuse the "only Creationism" folk of being.

And, again, I think it is ridiculous to make this area of science a zero sum game.  No one was at the creation, whether it was thousands of years ago or billions.  So, anything out there is a theory and nothing more.  Study all angles, please.

 

Teaching creationism is teaching pseudoscience.  You may believe that all life was specially created by Yahweh 6,000 years ago but your beliefs are not based on science.  If you, or the professors at Liberty, teach creationism you're teaching religion and calling it science.  That's pseudoscience.

Edited July 14, 2017 by GTWT

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

6 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Teaching creationism is teaching pseudoscience.  You may believe that all life was specially created by Yahweh 6,000 years ago but your beliefs are not based on science.  If you, or the professors at Liberty, teach creationism you're teaching religion and calling it science.  That's pseudoscience.

Thank you for your opinion.  I already know what you believe.  Everyone is not required to share your opinion - especially not folk at private Universities.

[GTWT]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Thank you for your opinion.  I already know what you believe.  Everyone is not required to share your opinion - especially not folk at private Universities.

You miss the point.  It's simple - UNT should not be associated with any institution that teaches pseudoscience.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

22 minutes ago, GTWT said:

You miss the point.  It's simple - UNT should not be associated with any institution that teaches pseudoscience.

No, I understand your opinion well:  you object to Liberty on academic grounds; the rest of us object on athletic grounds.

 

[GTWT]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

No, I understand your opinion well:  you object to Liberty on academic grounds; the rest of us object on athletic grounds.

 

Well, as long as we all object to the series I don't care why.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

3 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Well, as long as we all object to the series I don't care why.

We object to the series and the thought of being in the same conference with them.

[GTWT]

40 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We object to the series and the thought of being in the same conference with them.

Amen Green Brother!

[Rudy]

The intolerance of the tolerant.

[GTWT]

12 minutes ago, Rudy said:

The intolerance of the tolerant.

So, you're saying we should tolerate pseudoscience?

[UNTLifer]

On 7/14/2017 at 11:19 AM, GTWT said:

You miss the point.  It's simple - UNT should not be associated with any institution that teaches pseudoscience.

Which, since you missed the point, is your opinion.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

Guys, we already had this nailed down:  we oppose Liberty as a conference mate and are not happy that we were put into a home and home series with them.  We all have our different reasons.

The important thing is that we oppose it, not why we oppose it.