North Texas 2017 Offensive Line Assessment

GMG24 · July 3, 2017

3 hours ago, Cerebus said:

He may have played JR year, either way, he was JV jr year and varsity senior year. Has a lot of developing to do still think he'll be ok. I can't remember what my buddy told me about him either way impressive nonetheless.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 3, 2017

On 6/30/2017 at 7:55 PM, untjim1995 said:

To me, the offensive struggles from a year ago, has so much to do with having a team built for three yards and a cloud of dust and having them learn the spread. Harrell said last year in two-a-days that the guys were having trouble grasping the offense. It's a roster still full of round pegs and square holes, but I think this year will show more improvement, especially at QB and at WR. The OLine is what it is, but I think the passing game will be better.

I buy into that angle. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we told that Tech's/Leach's/Harrell's spread was very simple, perhaps as few as two pages? All receivers had to do was know a few routes?

Again, anyone chime in here, I know at least with Danny Amendola, there has for years been talk that Leach's offense was on one sheet of paper for WRs, and the onus (or, anus, if you are Corby Davidson) in his offenses are on the QB getting the ball out?

In one area I agree: we have for several seasons not had many WRs who consistently run good routes. I'm not saying we've had a bunch of All-Conference-level QBs; we've had some really bad one, as we all know. I am saying that often times, the QBs here haven't consistently gotten much help from the WRs.

I'm trying to teach these concepts of "getting open" to my son and daughter right now, because it's kind of universal in many sports: what you do without the ball is as important as what you do when you have it.

My son is in a summer basketball league, and my daughter is in a summer soccer league. My son is a good rebounder, and gets his butt in there and is physcial. But, when he has the ball, he turns it over alot because he tends to try to pass to his man instead out a bit to one side or the other where the defender has less of a chance of getting to it.

Same with my daughter in soccer. She is very fast, and has come to rely on that too much. She's now playing against better teams who often steal her passes. I've told her that she has to get the ball to where her teammate can get the ball, not the defender. That means not passing it directly to her teammate, but to one side or the other to an open space where her teammate has the best chance of getting it.

In short, I've told them both a thousand times, "you have to help your teammates." For WRs, that means getting in there and aggressively fighting for the ball...every time. Aggressively trying to get the angle...every time. No plays off. All who played at any competitive level at all have heard all their lives from coaches: "No plays off!"

I know that these guys on the team know these things. So, the question is, why can't they do it? And, here, possibly, the ugly specter of poor recruiting shows up: is it simply that our WRs, across the board, are not as good as athletes as our opponents' defensive backs?

I think that, for sure, feeds into part of the "OL problem" we supposedly have. All the OL can do is block on a pass play; they can't also get open for the receivers...or, get the ball out faster for the QB.

Edited July 3, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

MGNation92 · July 3, 2017

2 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I buy into that angle. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we told that Tech's/Leach's/Harrell's spread was very simple, perhaps as few as two pages? All receivers had to do was know a few routes?

Again, anyone chime in here, I know at least with Danny Amendola, there has for years been talk that Leach's offense was on one sheet of paper for WRs, and the onus (or, anus, if you are Corby Davidson) in his offenses are on the QB getting the ball out?

You're pretty right considering the Air Raid is more concept based than anything. There are so few plays that it's designed to out execute the opposing defense. Basically we have 20-30 plays that we have practiced a bajillion times, so much so that the QB/WR's/RB's know exactly what each other is doing for every play and the timing is damn near perfect.

Always used to crack me up when watching Tech with Leach. The opposing team would have this massive playsheet that was all laminated and folded out for more plays/audibles etc and he'd have a notecard of his plays lol.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 3, 2017

3 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

You're pretty right considering the Air Raid is more concept based than anything. There are so few plays that it's designed to out execute the opposing defense. Basically we have 20-30 plays that we have practiced a bajillion times, so much so that the QB/WR's/RB's know exactly what each other is doing for every play and the timing is damn near perfect.

Always used to crack me up when watching Tech with Leach. The opposing team would have this massive playsheet that was all laminated and folded out for more plays/audibles etc and he'd have a notecard of his plays lol.

Overall, I don't like Leach as a coach because I think he simply ignores the defense and special teams too much. But, I do give him this: he's not making his offense memorize a playbook as thick as on old phone book.

Maybe someday he'll give up his "go for it on fourth" mentality, hire a real defensive coordinator, trust his punt team to pin teams back deep in their own end, and finally win a championship.

Can't argue with his approach to offense on 1st through 3rd down, though.

On 6/30/2017 at 1:16 PM, Aldo said:

Not trying to criticize one player, but point out an example and giving more of a football critique: Watch Jordan Murray pass blocking vs Bethune Cookman to get a sense of poor pass blocking. He had a very hard time getting off the blocks and pedaling back while as a tackle. Run blocking, he's a Mack truck. That's why we saw so much movement throughout the season, including injuries to others.

Here's an interesting discussion about how long pro OLs should be able to hold their blocks for the QB to "get the ball out"...or as these guys put it, "Time To Throw."
https://www.profootballfocus.com/pass-blocking-by-time-to-throw/

They look at 2 seconds versus 2.5 versus 3.0. So, I'm guess it's roughly the same in FBS college. But, for the sake of arguments, and since we are G5, perhaps add one second to the mix: so 3 seconds versus 3.5 versus 4.0.

In these schemes with quick slants and screens, the O-lineman should be able to hold his block for just 3 to 4 seconds. If they can't do that, I'm not sure why they are on scholarship. You are not having to drive a guy back in pass blocking; it's less physically taxing than run blocking. You have to keep the guy out of the pocket, either shoving him out of the way, or keeping him from penetrating the line/holding your ground.

Edited July 3, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 3, 2017

On 6/30/2017 at 0:16 PM, Caw Caw said:

"When OLine is run blocking, they're the ones taking the initiative. They know who they're going to block, they know (usually) which hole they're creating for the RB, and they're driving forward.

When the OLine is pass blocking, they are in somewhat of a read and react mode, and it's more a game of instinct, agility, and thinking quickly."

This is a rundown of why I disagree with you. It's someone else's words but I think it represents my opinion. We were a good running blocking team, but we choose the point of attack, we choose the lanes, there isn't time for the defense to complicate it. We ranked 109 in rushing offense in CFB. It doesn't exactly remove the sting of being second to last in pass protection...

Edit: 121 of 128 in pass protection tied with UTSA to the tune of 293 yards on 48 sacks.

It was the running game in the second half of games that won three of the five games for us in 2016. If the run blocking had been even just a little worse, we'd have been 4-8 or worse at season's end.

I just disagree. The OL run blocking allowed Jeffrey Wilson and Willy Ivery to make us more competitive than we should have been in 2016. We scored 39 TDs in 2016, and Wilson and Ivery accounted for 20 of those on the ground.

So, for all the talk of poor OL play, I'd say that Davis' fellas delivered the bowl squeak in to us. And, during the bowl, our QB - Morris - completed 68.4% of his passes for 304 yards and 3 TDs. The OL allowed only one sack all game long in an OT game. That's one sack the 40 times Morris dropped back during the game.

Again, then, I don't buy the premise that our passing woes were on the OL. When they had a QB who got the ball out faster, there were fewer sacks. And, they did mash into pretty well in the run game.

Finally, and always, I simply think Littrell/Harrell panicked way too soon on Morris. Way too soon. He hit 62% of his throws in that game with two scores. The OL did struglle in that game, but it was the first game of the year for them with a new offense, etc.

(NOTE: Here is where I argue for the FCS home game opener...it does give you a chance to work out the kinks of whatever it is you've been installing/tweaking in the spring/fall. As already shown with many posts about scheduling, the vast majority of schools go this route. It would have helped us tremendously in 2016...in my opinion.)

MGNation92 · July 3, 2017

52 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Finally, and always, I simply think Littrell/Harrell panicked way too soon on Morris. Way too soon. He hit 62% of his throws in that game with two scores. The OL did struglle in that game, but it was the first game of the year for them with a new offense, etc.

(NOTE: Here is where I argue for the FCS home game opener...it does give you a chance to work out the kinks of whatever it is you've been installing/tweaking in the spring/fall. As already shown with many posts about scheduling, the vast majority of schools go this route. It would have helped us tremendously in 2016...in my opinion.)

The curious thing here will be, with the spring game and Lamar being scheduled first we'll truly see if Fine has progressed and we can chalk last season up to true freshman woes.

If he pulls another Bethune-Cookman(11-22 for 108 yards and no TD's) the first game of the season, will the coaches be as quick to pull him?

BTG_Fan1 · July 6, 2017

On 7/3/2017 at 1:18 PM, MGNation92 said:

The curious thing here will be, with the spring game and Lamar being scheduled first we'll truly see if Fine has progressed and we can chalk last season up to true freshman woes.

If he pulls another Bethune-Cookman(11-22 for 108 yards and no TD's) the first game of the season, will the coaches be as quick to pull him?

He better play a lot better than the spring game.

Honestly I'd like to us to see SL do what he had talked about last year. He talked about rotating QBs at times to give them a mental break at times and to also change up looks, but he didn't do that.. I would like us to have a steady QB, but would like to have a sub package or something like 1 drive a Q for someone like Izzy to come in and change it up on the defense. Making teams plan for different things can only help.

Heck give us some 5 wide with Griffin/Nic Smith in the backfield with Wilson and do a Read Option play..

@UNTSportsFan · July 6, 2017

Something that keeps getting overlooked is the return of Garrett Gunter. He was playing well last season before he went down with an injury. He quietly got a medical waiver & will be back... if he can get back to last seasons form , I'll feel a lot a better about our OL situation... plus there is also the possibility of adding some players late to the roster

Edited July 6, 2017 by @UNTSportsFan

MeanGreenTexan · July 6, 2017

2 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

He better play a lot better than the spring game.

Honestly I'd like to us to see SL do what he had talked about last year. He talked about rotating QBs at times to give them a mental break at times and to also change up looks, but he didn't do that.. I would like us to have a steady QB, but would like to have a sub package or something like 1 drive a Q for someone like Izzy to come in and change it up on the defense. Making teams plan for different things can only help.

Heck give us some 5 wide with Griffin/Nic Smith in the backfield with Wilson and do a Read Option play..

We have no idea what Isadore brings to the table. Nada. He could be worse than O'Hara... we don't know.

5-wide with 2 RBs in the backfield = 13 players. I like our chances with this play, but it's against the rules.

UNTLifer · July 6, 2017

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

We have no idea what Isadore brings to the table. Nada. He could be worse than O'Hara... we don't know.

5-wide with 2 RBs in the backfield = 13 players. I like our chances with this play, but it's against the rules.

Do we know what O'Hara brings to the table prior to throwing him under the bus?

2 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

He better play a lot better than the spring game.

Honestly I'd like to us to see SL do what he had talked about last year. He talked about rotating QBs at times to give them a mental break at times and to also change up looks, but he didn't do that.. I would like us to have a steady QB, but would like to have a sub package or something like 1 drive a Q for someone like Izzy to come in and change it up on the defense. Making teams plan for different things can only help.

Heck give us some 5 wide with Griffin/Nic Smith in the backfield with Wilson and do a Read Option play..

I hope we don't rotate QB's. I was always told that if you rotate your QB's then you really don't have a starter. I am holding out hope that Fine will continue to develop because the young man has great leadership qualities that are desired in a QB.

Either way, I am much more comfortable with our depth.

MeanGreenTexan · July 6, 2017

Just now, UNTLifer said:

Do we know what O'Hara brings to the table prior to throwing him under the bus?

Apparently not much. I don't know when he was injured last year, but he was only marginally better than Caleb Chumley during last Fall's camp, and Chumley plays TE now.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 6, 2017

Did anyone notice that some Texas football magazine tabbed Jordan Murray as a preseason Second Team All-Conference player? So...

...either he was doing something right most of the time; or, the writer of the article never saw him play.

Because I thought Brad Davis was the best coach on the staff last year, I'm going with the former rather than the latter.

Aldo · July 6, 2017

On 7/3/2017 at 11:57 AM, MeanGreenMailbox said:

You have to keep the guy out of the pocket, either shoving him out of the way, or keeping him from penetrating the line/holding your ground.

If you can't get out of your stance before a guy is blowing past you, there's a problem.

QB play *and* O-Line play has got to improve. I still think we are a year or two out.

MeanGreenTexan · July 6, 2017

3 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Do we know what O'Hara brings to the table prior to throwing him under the bus?

I hope we don't rotate QB's. I was always told that if you rotate your QB's then you really don't have a starter. I am holding out hope that Fine will continue to develop because the young man has great leadership qualities that are desired in a QB.

Either way, I am much more comfortable with our depth.

Yep. The old saying: "If you have 2 quarterbacks, you really don't have any."
The team really galvanized around Fine after this:

Monkeypox · July 6, 2017

And then he got banged up. And then Morris was 4-11 for 13 total yards with a pick.

Thank god we were good at running the ball last year.

BTG_Fan1 · July 7, 2017

17 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

We have no idea what Isadore brings to the table. Nada. He could be worse than O'Hara... we don't know.

5-wide with 2 RBs in the backfield = 13 players. I like our chances with this play, but it's against the rules.

It's simple to move the QB out or something as a WR. Just to mix it up and get the ball into different kids hands.

We have no idea what any of these QBs are.. Quinn got garage time, Izzy and O'Hara have been hurt. Carson was a RS. Pearson was in HS, and Fine either didn't progress because of the OL or he just stop developing/ regressed. This QB competition is only favored to Fine because he was the only one to throw a pass last year in a real game.

17 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Do we know what O'Hara brings to the table prior to throwing him under the bus?

I hope we don't rotate QB's. I was always told that if you rotate your QB's then you really don't have a starter. I am holding out hope that Fine will continue to develop because the young man has great leadership qualities that are desired in a QB.

Either way, I am much more comfortable with our depth.

I get not rotating, but that is why I said use him for different packages. Izzy was getting looks from Baylor prior to his injury. He is a big kid as well, if he can move I'd be fine using him as the a running QB similar to UT used Swoops last year.

Again O'Hara as we know wasn't getting looked at by other programs, but Izzy was. Give me his traits and we can see how he he progresses.