DRC: Breaking -- Tyler Wilson has officially left UNT's program

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, Wag Tag said:

More than the production I would look at the qb's size as a factor. I am afraid a 5'9" qb may be the reason we had so few attempts last year. I can't remember any quick slants, button hooks or quick outs to the slot. We have to establish the slot in the short to medium game. If Mason is the man, Maybe one way would put Smith (a bigger body) in that position?

What I was more getting at is looking at the production Tulsa/Montgomery seem to be getting out of the true freshmen. 

In 2015, Hobbs with 32 catches, then 50 as a sophomore.
in 2016, Keenen Johnson with 30.

Then, you look down our production and the best a true freshman - or, any type of freshman does - is 13 catches, eighth best on the team.

Anyway, it looks like the gap will be filled with JUCOs.  Tyler Wilson or no Tyler Wilson...in a spread offense, it shouldn't matter if you are getting decent receivers in your recruiting pipline.  Tulsa wasn't getting four and five star guys.  Keevan Lucas was a 2-star guy with only one other offer, Louisiana Tech:  https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2013/keevan-lucas-39981;  

Joshua Atkinson was a 3-star guy with two offers, Tulsa and Rice.

The other point is, the WR size shouldn't matter in a spread offense.  We all know that Turner Smiley is, really, the only known entity returning at WR.  He's listed at 6'0".  Probably really anywhere in between 5'10" and 6", but it doesn't matter.  Tulsa's Keevan Lucas listed at 5'10"/195.  NFL measured him at 5'9"/192 for the draft:  http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/keevan-lucas?id=2558126

The other TU receiver that graduated, Josh Atkinson had consecutive 1,000+ seasons.  TU listed him a 6'2", 208.  At the Pro Day, he was measured 6', 200.

It doesn't matter.  If the offense is run correctly any size receiver should be able to put up big numbers.

At TU last year, only four players had double digit receptions.  But, they combined for 239 catches, 3228 yards, and 28 TDs.  Our entire team got only slightly more receptions that at 260, but less yardage at 2,698, and about half the TDs with 15.

Our top four guys:  144 receptions, 1586 yards, and 7 TDs.

Our QBs threw the ball 447 times in 2016, Tulsa...448. 

It's simply a matter of the offense being run properly.  Before Philip Montgomery arrived, Bill Blankenship was not killing it in recruiting for TU.  That's why they quickly declined when he became head coach.

But, as far as size, it didn't matter.  Tall, short...the TU receivers were productive, and so was the QB.  Dane Evans was listed at 6'1" by Tulsa, but measured 6'0" by NFL scouts.  His weight, 210, was the same for both.  He wasn't a giant quarterback, but productive nonetheless.

Edited June 28, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[eagle-eye]

7 hours ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

Next man up!!!

 

4 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

He was a scholarship player.

We will get production out of the slot. They have guys like Lawerence, Duhon, Darden and I'm sure that we have others. 

 

 

4 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

That's kind of the whole point between an A and a Y

While both typically operate from the slot, your A is typically the Wes Welker type, and the Y is more of a big bodied possession guy like Thaddeous Thompson was last year. 

All of the above. 

[BTG_Fan1]

Don't forget Hair Griffin as well.. I knew i had overlooked someone from the slot

[MeanGreenZen]

Man, I thought this kid was TALENTED and a potential No.1 reciever type. If it was grades, would they announce that he left the team? Wouldn't they just announce him as academically ineligible and couldn't they just let him redshirt while he got his grades in order?

 

[outoftown]

To some degree you can make up for getting less star players, if you manage to get continuity in both the coaches and the players. Losing players this talented -no matter the reason - hurts that continuity.

[Harry]

The key to this story has not yet played out.  If Wilson had academic issues or family issues etc then ok it happens.

If we find out that the above is just a smoke screen, and he is leaving because he wants to transfer to another program then that is salt to the wound.

I am not being negative here, it has happened before to us with a highly talented player.  When this went down with TW my mind immediately went to a highly rated defensive tackle we signed under Mac who played one season, due to "giving up on football".  Months later he reappeared at a juco and after enrolling there for a year ended up transferring to Baylor.

Terrell Brooks Story Link

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

22 minutes ago, Harry said:

The key to this story has not yet played out.  If Wilson had academic issues or family issues etc then ok it happens.

If we find out that the above is just a smoke screen, and he is leaving because he wants to transfer to another program then that is salt to the wound.

I am not being negative here, it has happened before to us with a highly talented player.  When this went down with TW my mind immediately went to a highly rated defensive tackle we signed under Mac who played one season, due to "giving up on football".  Months later he reappeared at a juco and after enrolling there for a year ended up transferring to Baylor.

Terrell Brooks Story Link

Heh.  Terrell Brooks.

That guy never started at Baylor and finished with three career tackles in two season with them.  He was not a P5 player, but thought he was. 

He had the safety for us in our first game under Mac at FIU.  He'd have been All-Conference at this level.  He'd have been a junior in 2013, the year we won the Heart of Dallas Bowl.  He'd have been a senior in 2014, when we really could have used him.

It's a shame that some kids let people talk them into transferring from places they would start. 

No doubt Brooks got to ride along to Baylor bowl games in 2013 and 2014, got rings and all that.  But, he'd have gotten the same in at least one season here, and would have gotten to play.

And, when you play...who knows?  Maybe you develop into a guy the NFL gives a shot.  Even without having guys drafted, we've have several been successful as free agents.  No one is giving you a shot with two years of pine-riding and three tackles to show for it.

That FIU team he scored the safety against was solid.   They went 8-5 on the year, including a win at Louisville, a P5 bowl bound school that year.  I stand by my assessment that Brooks would have started here at least three years, maybe the remainder of his freshman year, and been an All-Conference guy.

Wasted talent.

Just for the record, I don't think Tyler Wilson will resurface at a P5.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

You know another defensive recruit form Mac's 2011 class I wish had worked out was Jamone Greer.

Greer had been offered a scholie by current Oregon State coach Gary Anderson when he was at Utah State.  He was a legitimate guy, but couldn't get his grades right, even after JUCO, as I recall.

That was a shame. 

This goes into those never-ending discussions about what happens academically to many of these kids at certain schools.  You never know, man.  You just never know. 

Most of us can't relate because we don't come from a background where athletic, not academics, were seen as your "ticket out" of a bad neighborhood/situation. 

After thousands of these type of stories, I can never wrap my mind around how prep coaches and teachers don't see that it's not good for a kid to just be passed through without knowing anything. 

It doesn't just hurt them during the recruiting process, you've cheated them in life, because football is a very temporary thing - even for exclusive few who get to the NFL.  You've got to have something in your bag besides football.

We talk about college coaches using these kids.  Now that I've had two kids in sports for several years, I think it starts way before then.  My kids are only nine and 11, but I've already seen examples of adults burning up kids because of their supposed athletic talent.

It's a problem that no one will fix.  We've simply fixed our situation by telling any "coach" or adult watching soccer, football, or baseball games who approaches us afterward that we have no interest in putting our kids in their "competitive" or "club" or "travel team" program. 

It was especially hard for my daughter because she and three of her soccer teammates were invited to an FC Dallas team.  Three of the girls went.  We didn't let our daughter because she was only seven at the time and we thought it was silly.

Of the three who went, two have already dropped out of it; one has stopped playing soccer altogether.  One remains and goes to school with our daughter.  She's nine and literally burned out on it.  She doesn't like practicing several times a week, but her parents run her out there anyway.  We've seen this same set of parents burn out her older sister in softball.

We stress academics, then athletics.  I know that thousands of other parents don't.  I'd bet our ratio - one (us) out of four (all the parents approached by the FC Dallas coach) - is about right.  We're in the minority for sure. 

Greer was probably a kid who lit up youth baseball, soccer, and football fields, probably basketball courts as well.  Was probably "protected" by teachers and coaches in junior high and high school.

It's a damn shame. 

[UNT 90 Grad]

On 6/28/2017 at 11:40 AM, Green P1 said:

Ugh....

Just curious, do other school's beat writers talk about players leaving their programs. 

http://www.sunherald.com/sports/college/conference-usa/university-of-southern-mississippi/article127105799.html

[GMG24]

9 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Heh.  Terrell Brooks.

That guy never started at Baylor and finished with three career tackles in two season with them.  He was not a P5 player, but thought he was. 

He had the safety for us in our first game under Mac at FIU.  He'd have been All-Conference at this level.  He'd have been a junior in 2013, the year we won the Heart of Dallas Bowl.  He'd have been a senior in 2014, when we really could have used him.

It's a shame that some kids let people talk them into transferring from places they would start. 

No doubt Brooks got to ride along to Baylor bowl games in 2013 and 2014, got rings and all that.  But, he'd have gotten the same in at least one season here, and would have gotten to play.

And, when you play...who knows?  Maybe you develop into a guy the NFL gives a shot.  Even without having guys drafted, we've have several been successful as free agents.  No one is giving you a shot with two years of pine-riding and three tackles to show for it.

That FIU team he scored the safety against was solid.   They went 8-5 on the year, including a win at Louisville, a P5 bowl bound school that year.  I stand by my assessment that Brooks would have started here at least three years, maybe the remainder of his freshman year, and been an All-Conference guy.

Wasted talent.

Just for the record, I don't think Tyler Wilson will resurface at a P5.

Tyler Wilson is a P5 talent.  He lost his dad and let some grades slip.

[UNTLifer]

So, is there any chance of him returning?

[GMG24]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

So, is there any chance of him returning?

I haven't heard. 

[UNTLifer]

Either way, I hope he sticks with school. Returning would be a bonus. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

14 hours ago, GMG24 said:

Tyler Wilson is a P5 talent.  He lost his dad and let some grades slip.

He had two offers coming out of high school:  us and Missouri State, an FCS school.  And, as I recall, we swooped in the last day or two to steal him from Missouri State. 

So, he is certainly not a P5 talent.  He was the eighth best receiver on a squad that was led by a JUCO guy who had seven career catches entering his senior season, okay?  There was ample opportunity for Wilson to show he was a G5 talent.

I stand by what I say:  13 catches over the span of one whole season is easily replaceable.

It reminds me of a story about Bob Stoops in 1999.  My wife was in grad school at OU at the time, and we were living in OKC, just up the street from the little private school where a kid named Wes Welker was about to begin his senior season.

Anyway, OU had a kid on its roster when Stoops arrived named Ahmed Kabba.  He was a highly regard recruit when OU signed him in 1997, before Stoops was there.  He caught three passes in 1997, then a whopping eight in 1998.

After Stoops' first spring practice, junior-to-be Kabba was listed third on the depth chart.  He went into Stoops' office and demanded to be put with the first team.  Stoops refused and gave him his walking papers.  Over that summer, he claimed to be transferring to New Mexico,  Didn't happen.  Then, Tulsa.  Never happened.  Finally, in August of 1999, he resurfaced at TCU.  He was gone before the season's end, and never played a down of football for the Horned Frogs.

(Kabba ended up at Division II Northwestern Oklahoma State - where have we heard that school mentioned before? - playing second fiddle to future Dallas Cowboy Patrick Crayton)

But, the reporters in Norman were worried when he left.  After all, OU had been running an option offense and new OC was installing his spread that had just made Kentucky competitive.  On the surface, it appeared that OU had a dearth of receivers for this type of offense.

So, during one of the earliest press briefings with Stoops, a reporter asked him, "How will you replace Ahmed Kabba?"  His response was, "I think we can find a guy who can make eight catches in a year."

He did find someone - 14 to be exact.  In 1999, 14 Sooners has eight or more receptions.  This from a squad that was filled with players who from a prior coaching staff that had never been in a passing offense, much less a spread.

The point is, and will always remain, if this type of offense is being executed correctly, any WR who can run the routes properly is going to get a huge number of catches.  It isn't an offense predicated on "one guy" being the receiving threat.  Run properly, all receiving positions on the field - WR, HB, TE, whatever - are threats on each play.

So, although we hope Tyler Wilson can get his head right and come back, his leaving is not the end of the world for us. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[North Texas Shep]

Young man had a lot of talent but we has some quality backs. 

[GMG24]

6 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

He had two offers coming out of high school:  us and Missouri State, an FCS school.  And, as I recall, we swooped in the last day or two to steal him from Missouri State. 

So, he is certainly not a P5 talent.  He was the eighth best receiver on a squad that was led by a JUCO guy who had seven career catches entering his senior season, okay?  There was ample opportunity for Wilson to show he was a G5 talent.

I stand by what I say:  13 catches over the span of one whole season is easily replaceable.

It reminds me of a story about Bob Stoops in 1999.  My wife was in grad school at OU at the time, and we were living in OKC, just up the street from the little private school where a kid named Wes Welker was about to begin his senior season.

Anyway, OU had a kid on its roster when Stoops arrived named Ahmed Kabba.  He was a highly regard recruit when OU signed him in 1997, before Stoops was there.  He caught three passes in 1997, then a whopping eight in 1998.

After Stoops' first spring practice, junior-to-be Kabba was listed third on the depth chart.  He went into Stoops' office and demanded to be put with the first team.  Stoops refused and gave him his walking papers.  Over that summer, he claimed to be transferring to New Mexico,  Didn't happen.  Then, Tulsa.  Never happened.  Finally, in August of 1999, he resurfaced at TCU.  He was gone before the season's end, and never played a down of football for the Horned Frogs.

(Kabba ended up at Division II Northwestern Oklahoma State - where have we heard that school mentioned before? - playing second fiddle to future Dallas Cowboy Patrick Crayton)

But, the reporters in Norman were worried when he left.  After all, OU had been running an option offense and new OC was installing his spread that had just made Kentucky competitive.  On the surface, it appeared that OU had a dearth of receivers for this type of offense.

So, during one of the earliest press briefings with Stoops, a reporter asked him, "How will you replace Ahmed Kabba?"  His response was, "I think we can find a guy who can make eight catches in a year."

He did find someone - 14 to be exact.  In 1999, 14 Sooners has eight or more receptions.  This from a squad that was filled with players who from a prior coaching staff that had never been in a passing offense, much less a spread.

The point is, and will always remain, if this type of offense is being executed correctly, any WR who can run the routes properly is going to get a huge number of catches.  It isn't an offense predicated on "one guy" being the receiving threat.  Run properly, all receiving positions on the field - WR, HB, TE, whatever - are threats on each play.

So, although we hope Tyler Wilson can get his head right and come back, his leaving is not the end of the world for us. 

Never said he was hard to replace, you are aware P5 talent slips through cracks all time, grades, shocker I know... (Test scores) to qualify or character issues.  I don't know the kid but have coached long enough to know there are reasons kids with talent slip through the cracks.  Sure you can say 13 catches, he also was in true freshman season with true freshman QB with a bad OL.  Lots of things factor into catches.  I don't know the numbers but I'd be interested to see how many targets/drops etc he had.

[MeanGreenZen]

7 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

He had two offers coming out of high school:  us and Missouri State, an FCS school.  And, as I recall, we swooped in the last day or two to steal him from Missouri State. 

So, he is certainly not a P5 talent.  He was the eighth best receiver on a squad that was led by a JUCO guy who had seven career catches entering his senior season, okay?  There was ample opportunity for Wilson to show he was a G5 talent.

I stand by what I say:  13 catches over the span of one whole season is easily replaceable.

It reminds me of a story about Bob Stoops in 1999.  My wife was in grad school at OU at the time, and we were living in OKC, just up the street from the little private school where a kid named Wes Welker was about to begin his senior season.

Anyway, OU had a kid on its roster when Stoops arrived named Ahmed Kabba.  He was a highly regard recruit when OU signed him in 1997, before Stoops was there.  He caught three passes in 1997, then a whopping eight in 1998.

After Stoops' first spring practice, junior-to-be Kabba was listed third on the depth chart.  He went into Stoops' office and demanded to be put with the first team.  Stoops refused and gave him his walking papers.  Over that summer, he claimed to be transferring to New Mexico,  Didn't happen.  Then, Tulsa.  Never happened.  Finally, in August of 1999, he resurfaced at TCU.  He was gone before the season's end, and never played a down of football for the Horned Frogs.

(Kabba ended up at Division II Northwestern Oklahoma State - where have we heard that school mentioned before? - playing second fiddle to future Dallas Cowboy Patrick Crayton)

But, the reporters in Norman were worried when he left.  After all, OU had been running an option offense and new OC was installing his spread that had just made Kentucky competitive.  On the surface, it appeared that OU had a dearth of receivers for this type of offense.

So, during one of the earliest press briefings with Stoops, a reporter asked him, "How will you replace Ahmed Kabba?"  His response was, "I think we can find a guy who can make eight catches in a year."

He did find someone - 14 to be exact.  In 1999, 14 Sooners has eight or more receptions.  This from a squad that was filled with players who from a prior coaching staff that had never been in a passing offense, much less a spread.

The point is, and will always remain, if this type of offense is being executed correctly, any WR who can run the routes properly is going to get a huge number of catches.  It isn't an offense predicated on "one guy" being the receiving threat.  Run properly, all receiving positions on the field - WR, HB, TE, whatever - are threats on each play.

So, although we hope Tyler Wilson can get his head right and come back, his leaving is not the end of the world for us. 

Well, since you bring up Wes Welker, Welker had 26 receptions his freshman season for 0 TDs: numbers that look a lot like Wilsons. Not saying Wilson is Welker, but Wilson is a talent and this loss hurts.

[Harry]

7 minutes ago, MeanGreenZen said:

Well, since you bring up Wes Welker, Welker had 26 receptions his freshman season for 0 TDs: numbers that look a lot like Wilsons. Not saying Wilson is Welker, but Wilson is a talent and this loss hurts.

I feel you man.  Especially when you think we have recently lost Wilson and Willy Ivery and Tee Goree.. that's a lot of talent that could have really helped us.

[Ibleedgreen]

Tyler Wilson was my favorite player after the bowl game. I will cross my fingers that he returns.

 

[NorthTexan95]

On 6/30/2017 at 6:54 PM, MeanGreenZen said:

Well, since you bring up Wes Welker, Welker had 26 receptions his freshman season for 0 TDs: numbers that look a lot like Wilsons. Not saying Wilson is Welker, but Wilson is a talent and this loss hurts.

No need to leave our own team to look for an example:

Casey Fitzgerald Yearly Receptions totals:  1, 4, 111, 113  

It's not an apples to apples comparison since Casey's first two years were in a very run first offense. I think Wilson has a lot of talent and could be an excellent special teams player.  He could have developed into a terrific receiver but we may never know that.  

Edited July 3, 2017 by NorthTexan95

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

On 6/30/2017 at 6:54 PM, MeanGreenZen said:

Well, since you bring up Wes Welker, Welker had 26 receptions his freshman season for 0 TDs: numbers that look a lot like Wilsons. Not saying Wilson is Welker, but Wilson is a talent and this loss hurts.

Can't see how its the same.  Welker caught twice as many passes on a team with a far more experienced receiving corp that Wilson faced at UNT.  Plus, Welker was the starting kickoff and punt returner.  He was a playmaker from day one at Tech.

Other than they were both true freshman, I don't think there is much of a comparison on what Welker did versus what Wilson did.  Welker outperformed him all the way around; and, in a tougher conference on a deeper team.

[MeanGreenZen]

You could make a strong case that we have lost three of our top four would-be returning playmakers (Ivery, Goree, T. Wilson)

That is troubling, especially when your coach is not recruiting high level talent and is banking on his ability to develop players. Can't develop kids who leave your program.

All programs lose talented players, this is just a lot of returning skill position talent to lose since the end of the regular season. 

[UNTLifer]

I would challenge the "not recruiting high level talent" comment. Siggers, Darden, White, Guyton, Hair-Griffin, etc... are going to be be pretty solid and were all recruited by SL. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

On 7/4/2017 at 9:49 AM, MeanGreenZen said:

You could make a strong case that we have lost three of our top four would-be returning playmakers (Ivery, Goree, T. Wilson)

That is troubling, especially when your coach is not recruiting high level talent and is banking on his ability to develop players. Can't develop kids who leave your program.

All programs lose talented players, this is just a lot of returning skill position talent to lose since the end of the regular season. 

All of what you say is true if we don't have a QB who can execute this type of offense. 

As demonstrated at OU in 1999, a team built to run can win immediately.  When the 1999 college football season began, OU hadn't had a winning season since 1993, and hadn't been to a bowl game since 1994.

The coach prior to Stoops, John Blake, built the team around option offenses.  This has all been rehashed here before, prior to last season.  (NOTE:  I was living in OKC at the time, so it was really big news back then when OU won immediately.  Really big in Oklahoma because, at the time, it had no pro sports other than minor league hockey and baseball.  So, OU losing was really wearing on those folks up there.)

Stoops took players who hadn't been receivers before, or full time receivers, and made a nice receiving corp.  Or, I guess I should say, his receivers' coach did - Steve Spurrier, Jr.  Also, many of those receivers were redshirt or true freshmen. 

You don't need top talent at WR all the way around.  What you need is disciplined route runners who don't take plays off.  And, you need a QB who can get the ball out very quickly. 

Remember, OU's offensive line then, like ours now, was recruited to mash in the run game.  Coach Littrell was smack in the middle of his career there at the time as a fullback.  A fullback. 

What I will say is even though OU didn't have a ton of top WR recruits, the guys they did have were offered multiple I-A, as it was called back then, scholarships.  As bad as the coaching staff prior to Stoops was, they weren't battling I-AA schools or Division II schools for recruits.  So, the guys there - some young, some switching positions - were good enough athletes, and disciplined in their route running.

Littrell did switch one guy over with some success last year, moving Kenny Buyers from DB.  He became the fourth leading receiver for us in 2016.

Again, with this offense, you need guys who are disciplined and can make plays.  But, you are correct, the recruiting does have to be good, even though it doesn't have to be stellar.

I think right now, that's all any of us are asking for.  If we can get a roster full of Bean-type guys at all positions, we'll be good.  If Bean is the exception rather than the rule, though, Littrell term here will be short-lived...in a bad way.

[aztecskin]

1. Losing promising talent is not good, but it does happen. 
2. His production _should_ be replaceable, even if long-term the loss is not good. 
3. There is more to this story than 'he left'
4. These things happen.