Recruiting Negative Thoughts

MeanGreenTexan · June 21, 2017

15 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

I can sit here and see what/who signs on the dotted line come NSD and see how they develop. Many bring up the fact that Dodge was a good recruiter and refer to his class he signed in 2008. This class is a perfect example of my POV on recruiting. Nate Jenkins, Alonzo Horton (Didn't make grades), Justin Edwards, Kylee Hill, Jeremy Knott and Riley Dodge were our three star players via 247 sports. Riley was the only one to really contribute and he got beat up to the point he finished elsewhere. DaWaylon Cook was a highly rated safety with multiple offers that did nothing. Troy Franklin out of Celina had numerous offers and was highly regarded and barely made a dent in the two deep. Lance Dunbar was the bell cow of that class as a 2 star with a number of offers, James Hamilton was also a 2 star with good offers that was a career backup and Royce Hill, John Shorter and Coleman Feeley were probably the next most productive, all two stars.

...

You realize who was coaching these guys, right? It cannot be either/or (good coaching or good recruiting)... to be successful, it has to be both.

And again, most are not concerned with what 247 (or Rivals at that time) is rating these guys, rather, WHAT DO OTHER COACHES ON THE FBS LEVEL THINK ABOUT THESE GUYS? I'd gladly take a "2*" guy that has 4 FBS offers over a "3*" guy with only FCS offers, beacause that means 3 other FBS-level coaches have evaluated the players and think they're worthy of playing for them.
For instance, why is UNT the only FBS school offering Kason Martin, Anthony Martin & Cole Brown? I realize they could blow up over their senior years and get a bazillion offers, but as of now, after multiple summer camps and 7-on-7 tourneys, there should be a ton of coaches who have seen them, and know what they can do.
Not having offers from any other FBS schools usually means the coaches who have seen these guys think, "nah, I'd rather have someone else." Is that not the slightest bit concerning?

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · June 21, 2017

5 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

You realize who was coaching these guys, right? It cannot be either/or (good coaching or good recruiting)... to be successful, it has to be both.

And again, most are not concerned with what 247 (or Rivals at that time) is rating these guys, rather, WHAT DO OTHER COACHES ON THE FBS LEVEL THINK ABOUT THESE GUYS? I'd gladly take a "2*" guy that has 4 FBS offers over a "3*" guy with only FCS offers, beacause that means 3 other FBS-level coaches have evaluated the players and think they're worthy of playing for them.
For instance, why is UNT the only FBS school offering Kason Martin, Anthony Martin & Cole Brown? I realize they could blow up over their senior years and get a bazillion offers, but as of now, after multiple summer camps and 7-on-7 tourneys, there should be a ton of coaches who have seen them, and know what they can do.
Not having offers from any other FBS schools usually means the coaches who have seen these guys think, "nah, I'd rather have someone else." Is that not the slightest bit concerning?

This is exactly right. All of the kids go to camps, most beginning in the ninth grade; some sooner.

So, by the time these guys are finished with their sophomore seasons, they've been seen. The best are offered before their junior year. The rest of the best are offered between their junior and season years.

If you have a guy going into his senior year who has no FBS offers, that tells you something. He has been seen by college coaches, live and on film. He has been seen by recruiting services, live and on film.

(Too) many people here got whipped up about Mason Fine. He threw six TD passes, never more than one in any game, and was injured by the end of the year. It's about par for the course, I suppose for a guy who had no FBS offers either.

I've said this going back at least as far as the Todd Dodge era - North Texas football doesn't exist in a vacuum. We laud these players with no other FBS offers, while our opponents, in and out of conference, are signing class after class with guys with multiple FBS offers.

It's the reason we've only had four winning season since 1995. Four in 22 years.

Recruiting means something. Simon, Dickey, Dodge, McCarney...none of them recruited enough D-IA/FBS-ready players. You can name some hits here and there. But, when you stack four winning seasons up against 18 losing seasons, you have to face reality.

Littrell is going down the same path. And, that's fine to a point. And, for me, that point was crossed when they decided to pay him $1 million a year after a 5-8 season, then saw the recruiting class he signed.

Edited June 21, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

MeanGreenTexan · June 21, 2017

4 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

...

(Too) many people here got whipped up about Mason Fine. He threw six TD passes, never more than one in any game, and was injured by the end of the year. It's about par for the course, I suppose for a guy who had no FBS offers either.

...

I want to be crystal clear here:
Littrell was hired after the 2015 season. Most QB's commit somewhere before their SR year. There was no one left for him to sign. I think Fine was a very good signing for the amount of time Littrell had.

Then, as I've been saying to anyone who will read: FINE WAS A TRUE FRESHMAN last year. He will improve.

I wonder if there would be as much doubt about Fine if he had the redshirt that was due him last year and Morris held onto his job all year? Maybe seeing Shanbour spell Morris instead of Fine?
Instead, Fine was thrown into The Swamp less than a year after playing 3A ball in Oklahoma. Now everyone is complaining like his true Freshman year is the best we're going to get out of him... makes zero sense. Looking at the QB's on our roster, I'm firmly in Fine's corner.
Pearson at least had an offer from Wyoming, which is a pretty decent offense similar to ours. Knowing WY's coaches liked him helps his case.
Maybe Martin will gather more offers during his Sr. year. Not likely, but we'll see.

Greendylan · June 21, 2017

There absolutely can be players who look good on film, seem to be an ideal fit for our system, and/or actually have relatively high ratings/position rankings yet no other FBS offers. Kason Martin comes to mind here. Could there be some anomalies about that player or his recruitment that have resulted in so few opportunities? Sure, on occasion. So, when a new commit surfaces with no other offers, we all know there is a chance he might be awesome. However, receiving a verbal from that player does nothing to quell the fears that we have about losing recruiting battles.

Surely we can all agree on this one point: If every single time another coach wants a recruit we are after, the player goes with the other guys, then that's not a sustainable path to building a team. It is a sign that we are getting slaughtered in the PR battle. And, it suggests that if late offers come around for our recruits, they will bolt.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Greendylan

Ben Gooding · June 21, 2017

3 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

I can sit here and see what/who signs on the dotted line come NSD and see how they develop. Many bring up the fact that Dodge was a good recruiter and refer to his class he signed in 2008. This class is a perfect example of my POV on recruiting. Nate Jenkins, Alonzo Horton (Didn't make grades), Justin Edwards, Kylee Hill, Jeremy Knott and Riley Dodge were our three star players via 247 sports. Riley was the only one to really contribute and he got beat up to the point he finished elsewhere. DaWaylon Cook was a highly rated safety with multiple offers that did nothing. Troy Franklin out of Celina had numerous offers and was highly regarded and barely made a dent in the two deep. Lance Dunbar was the bell cow of that class as a 2 star with a number of offers, James Hamilton was also a 2 star with good offers that was a career backup and Royce Hill, John Shorter and Coleman Feeley were probably the next most productive, all two stars.

Recruiting can always be better, always. My issue is that some on here bitch and moan continuously after every young man commits when we have no idea how they will turn out. Our coaches have always recruited from "behind the eight ball" in reference to the support they received from the university. This is all changing after years and years of just having enough to get by. You read on here from HS coaches that our facilities are just not there, being addressed at this time, and that we have been historically known as a school that didn't fully support the program. All signs point to this changing with the hiring of SL and staff, Dr. Smatresk's support, the facility plans under the direction of our still new, here only 11 months, AD, etc... Our current offer list is better than anything we have offered in the past and I expect that we will see the results come signing day. I expect it to improve yearly, as well as the results on the field, where our first year staff took a 1-11 team and started a turn around, got them to a bowl and ended with a 5-8 record. We should expect continued improvement, but to see people criticize our coaching staff over every new commit is tiring and doesn't help when we live in a time when every comment is available to every kid considering our school. They look at fan sites and, if I were a recent commit, to see their names in the same sentence with people complaining about our staff's recruiting has to be deflating and gives them second thoughts.

Nobody is sitting by "bathing in our apathy" about this class, but to not recognize the commitment of this staff and administration with the improved salaries, social media, IPF plans, other facility improvements and the general difference is attitude under Baker as opposed to RV is ridiculous.

Let's start with the bold in order...

1. Dan McCarney won with Dodge recruits. Without them, Dan McCarney would've been worse...Fathom that for a second.

2. Recruiting can technically always be better, sure. But it must be better in our case for us to make significant strides...by that I mean just consistent success. We are signing Dan McCarney type classes. Do you recall what happened to the regime here at UNT? Must you be reminded? It ended very, very ugly. And the same few of us on here complaining about weak recruiting was complaining about it leading up to the demise. And the same people that defended those classes are defending these classes.

3. Rice and their facilities aren't behind the eight ball? utsa and their facilities aren't behind the eight ball? Have you been to Ruston for a game? Have you seen their stadium? UTEP...the team that pounded us into the dirt while hanging half a hundred on us last season? They're not behind the eight ball? UAB has been recruiting on par with us the last few classes...They aren't even playing football yet up until this year. That's not behind the eight ball? There are programs is worse shape than ours, believe it or not. It's very true.

4. Their feelings are not my problem. Fortunately for them, they will be playing at UNT...Where nothing is ever criticized by the masses because we haven't been consistently good for anyone to give a damn. Go to a real college football game and sit with those fans...They eat players and coaches alike for lunch during games, halftime walks to the locker room and post game walks. They are actual fanatics. I call UNT players fortunate that they don't get a real earful from real fans.

5. No one is talking about the improvement of administrative support, or criticizing it. Most see it. I do, and I appreciate it. It's been a long time coming and it is needed. It may very well improve recruiting and it should be used as a recruiting tool for the assistants as in, "Look at what we're building. Look at our blueprints for plans. Look at our new AD and Prez and their care for athletics (etc.)." This can be a very efficient tool to use until those plans come to fruition. Are our assistants not doing that or are they? Do we have a socially awkward head coach that can't close the deal? Possibly. There is a reason to the madness and it's just not fill in the blank with the cliche excuses to make us feel better. There's more to it than that.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Ben Gooding

UNTLifer · June 21, 2017

3 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Let's start with the bold in order...

1. Dan McCarney won with Dodge recruits. Without them, Dan McCarney would've been worse...Fathom that for a second.

2. Recruiting can technically always be better, sure. But it must be better in our case for us to make significant strides...by that I mean just consistent success. We are signing Dan McCarney type classes. Do you recall what happened to the regime here at UNT? Must you be reminded? It ended very, very ugly. And the same few of us on here complaining about weak recruiting was complaining about it leading up to the demise. And the same people that defended those classes are defending these classes.

3. Rice and their facilities aren't behind the eight ball? utsa and their facilities aren't behind the eight ball? Have you been to Ruston for a game? Have you seen their stadium? UTEP...the team that pounded us into the dirt while hanging half a hundred on us last season? They're not behind the eight ball? UAB has been recruiting on par with us the last few classes...They aren't even playing football yet up until this year. That's not behind the eight ball? There are programs is worse shape than ours, believe it or not. It's very true.

4. Their feelings are not my problem. Fortunately for them, they will be playing at UNT...Where nothing is ever criticized by the masses because we haven't been consistently good for anyone to give a damn. Go to a real college football game and sit with those fans...They eat players and coaches alike for lunch during games, halftime walks to the locker room and post game walks. They are actual fanatics. I call UNT players fortunate that they don't get a real earful from real fans.

5. No one is talking about the improvement of administrative support, or criticizing it. Most see it. I do, and I appreciate it. It's been a long time coming and it is needed. It may very well improve recruiting and it should be used as a recruiting tool for the assistants as in, "Look at what we're building. Look at our blueprints for plans. Look at our new AD and Prez and their care for athletics (etc.)." This can be a very efficient tool to use until those plans come to fruition. Are our assistants not doing that or are they? Do we have a socially awkward head coach that can't close the deal? Possibly. There is a reason to the madness and it's just not fill in the blank with the cliche excuses to make us feel better. There's more to it than that.

1. Not the point I was making.

2. SL and staff have been through one signing day...one. Correction: 2 signing days, but 1 year to recruit.

3. I didn't tie my comment to facilities. I tied it to administrative/university support. We existed on a shoe string and Fouts, etc... were worse than anything out there now.

4. Real fans don't always equate to over the top fanatics. The fans you mention bring to mind OU/LSU type fans that are classless. Again, though, not my point. Read it again. Talking about kids that are being recruited by us. Kids like this that sign with Houston for example, get inundated with positive comments from their fans. Commitments to us "Google" their names and find threads criticizing the quality of the players we recruit which I am sure made them really happy and proud to come to North Texas.

5. Lot's of speculation in your comments. Also, I would not call SL socially awkward, but it is not the rah-rah salesman type either. Someone on here labelled him a straight shooter and I think that is accurate. He does throw a bunch of B.S. at these kids. The point of my comment was that this commitment from the school/AD/etc... has never happened. This along with the culture change will take constant effort by all and won't happen overnight when you are trying to correct 40+ years of mismanagement.

Edited June 21, 2017 by UNTLifer

Ben Gooding · June 21, 2017

14 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

1. Not the point I was making.

2. SL and staff have been through one signing day...one.

3. I didn't tie my comment to facilities. I tied it to administrative/university support. We existed on a shoe string and Fouts, etc... were worse than anything out there now.

4. Real fans don't always equate to over the top fanatics. The fans you mention bring to mind OU/LSU type fans that are classless. Again, though, not my point. Read it again. Talking about kids that are being recruited by us. Kids like this that sign with Houston for example, get inundated with positive comments from their fans. Commitments to us "Google" their names and find threads criticizing the quality of the players we recruit which I am sure made them really happy and proud to come to North Texas.

5. Lot's of speculation in your comments. Also, I would not call SL socially awkward, but it is not the rah-rah salesman type either. Someone on here labelled him a straight shooter and I think that is accurate. He does throw a bunch of B.S. at these kids. The point of my comment was that this commitment from the school/AD/etc... has never happened. This along with the culture change will take constant effort by all and won't happen overnight when you are trying to correct 40+ years of mismanagement.

2 signing days, 2. I would rather agree with 1 if his first clads wasn't an overall better class. But it was, so it almost has to be considered at this point. He is recruiting his 3rd class and very soon it will already be all of his players on the field.

And IMO, SL comes off as socially awkward. It's not a damning thing. Millions of people are. But it sure as hell isn't going to help our recruiting woes.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Ben Gooding

TreeFiddy · June 21, 2017

Since so many people feel Latech is blowing away UNT in recruiting, I looked at their class from last year. The first 3 guys on their board really skew the numbers. Something is really fishy about the first 3 guys. All 3 had multiple P5 offers. Cole and Andrews were HS teammates. I believe there is a high likelihood that there is some sort of issue with Cole, Robertson, and Andrews since it would be pretty hard to believe that Latech would beat out multiple P5s for their services. However, I listed them anyway for completeness:

Name, position, level, 247 composite, number of other FBS offers

Jaiden Cole, ATH, HS, .8590, 12 offers
Amik Robertson, CB, HS, .8448, 10 offers
JaCorian Andrews, CB, HS, .8380, 11 offers
Elijah Walker, QB, HS, .8241, 6 offers
Joshua Mote, OL, HS, .7991, 6 offers
Kollin Hurt, S, HS, .7958, 2 offers
Michael Sam, CB, juco, .7956, 2 offers
Hanner Shipley, OL, juco, .7945, 4 offers
George Scott, WR, HS, .7931, 0 offers
Cualan Williams, WR, HS, .7857, 2 offers
Griffin Hebert, WR, HS, .7857, 2 offers
Tristan Allen, OLB, HS, .7857, 1 offer
Randy Hogan jr, ILB, juco, .7856, 1 offer
Conner Estes, OL, HS, .7817, 3 offers
Milton Williams, DE, HS, .7817, 2 offers
Robert Drew Kirkpatrick, OL, juco, .7800, 2 offers
Brady Farlow, K, juco, .7794, 0 offers
Jordan Baldwin, S, juco, .7744, 0 offers
Davan Dyer, P, foreign, .7397, 0 offers

Seems like a pretty decent class after you get past the first 3 guys. A couple of nice multiple offer guys along with several 1 or 2 offer plus a few 0 offer guys. Other than the first 3 guys, I doubt that last years class was considerably worse in comparison. UNT's class likely has less offers, but I have not verified. Latech has a little momentum now and I would expect this year's class to tick up from last year's class. I doubt we see significant improvement in UNT's class based on last year's performance on the field.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · June 21, 2017

2 hours ago, Greendylan said:

There absolutely can be players who look good on film, seem to be an ideal fit for our system, and/or actually have relatively high ratings/position rankings yet no other FBS offers. Kason Martin comes to mind here. Could there be some anomalies about that player or his recruitment that have resulted in so few opportunities? Sure, on occasion. So, when a new commit surfaces with no other offers, we all know there is a chance he might be awesome. However, receiving a verbal from that player does nothing to quell the fears that we have about losing recruiting battles.

Surely we can all agree on this one point: If every single time another coach wants a recruit we are after, the player goes with the other guys, then that's not a sustainable path to building a team. It is a sign that we are getting slaughtered in the PR battle. And, it suggests that if late offers come around for our recruits, they will bolt.

Excellent points, but there has to be a battle to being with; that's the point many of us make. With these latest recruits, the battle isn't against FBS schools, it's against FCS and Division II schools.

In time, that's a problem.

So, then, it's a numbers game: how many "slip through the crack" players will actually become real, FBS-level players? The answer is, not many.

So, then you are stuck in the mouse wheel every four or so years when a new coach comes in: most starters are the "not many" and you have a "slip through that really was good" in just a handful of positions.

It's not been a good recipe for success here.

And, I want to post something here that I've posted in the past: there is no shame in being an FCS-level talent. You are still talking about a kid who is athletic and has some drive. But, it is simply a step below what is real FBS level. Otherwise, you'd have a sh*t ton more upset of P5 schools by G5s and FCS schools instead of just a handful season in and season out.

I point to us being annihilated by Portland State in 2016 as an example. Think about it. Can you think of any other school on its worst day that could be run off the field, at home, like that, by an FCS?

I think partially, the players quit that day. But, that cannot be the full explanation to losing 66-7 a a school one division lower than you. I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell Portland State could have done that to a lower P5. Say, Kansas or Indiana. I don't even think they could do it to any other lower G5. Tulane? UTEP?

The fact of the matter is each coach inherits a roster of mainly sub-FBS players because no coach has been able to raise the bar. And, because the recent commitments have the same qualities of those landed by Dodge and McCarney before him...it just looks like trouble on the field for years to come for many of us here who have watched it for three decades now.

(NOTE: I can't even imagine being an NTSU oldtimer and seeing the drop off in our competitiveness. From Abner Haynes Mean Joe to winning at Tennessee...to being blown out by Portland State and APRing our way into a bowl game at 5-7. All in one lifetime.)

greenminer · June 21, 2017

SL seems articulate, though of few words. He looks you in the eye, works hard, and seems like a guy I'd want to shake hands with.

If by "socially awkward", one means he doesn't relate to the Carlos Harris Instagramming of the world, then okay. If by "socially awkward" you mean he doesn't communicate well, I think we'd have to disagree.

If you are referring to his inability to sell our program to recruits, then I'd suggest that has more to do with a certain skill set, rather than being awkward.

Just my 0.02 @Ben Gooding. Maybe you've met him. I haven't.

UNTLifer · June 21, 2017

Correct, 2 signing classes and one full recruiting cycle prior to this one. You claim the first class was better than the last, but only time will tell.

97and03 · June 21, 2017

This whole thread:

TL;DR

Ben Gooding · June 21, 2017

35 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Correct, 2 signing classes and one full recruiting cycle prior to this one. You claim the first class was better than the last, but only time will tell.

It was a hair more than microscopic better. It's splitting hairs, really. But given the amount of recruits committed at the time of his arrival, he deserves credit/blame for the class. For now, in a weird and unfortunate way, it's credit.

52 minutes ago, greenminer said:

SL seems articulate, though of few words. He looks you in the eye, works hard, and seems like a guy I'd want to shake hands with.

If by "socially awkward", one means he doesn't relate to the Carlos Harris Instagramming of the world, then okay. If by "socially awkward" you mean he doesn't communicate well, I think we'd have to disagree.

If you are referring to his inability to sell our program to recruits, then I'd suggest that has more to do with a certain skill set, rather than being awkward.

Just my 0.02 @Ben Gooding. Maybe you've met him. I haven't.

I'm not in instagram/twitter or whatever. So not really what I'm trying to describe. I think what I'm trying to say is there is no charisma associated with his personality and kids can read that. And maybe charisma is a bad word choice. He either comes off as semi timid or robotic. And I know this is all new to him, or it at least was. To me, you described him kind of as a good ole boy and I can totally see that.

Bottom line is that he ran out arguably his best recruiter. He needs to desperately hire away or find someone that can sell our program/relate to players. He must start closing the deal and if he has already put himself in that role, he has to improve.

Greendylan · June 22, 2017

Let me put it another way:

If we sign a whole class of guys who had virtually no other FBS offers, then that would be like an NFL team opting out of the draft and then waiting for every single free agent (veteran or rookie) to sign with other teams before seeing who still was available to offer a minimum contract. Fans might love the players who ended up slipping through the cracks and ending up with that team, but they would be outraged by the strategy. Doing that for a single year would be disastrous. Doing that year after year would would at some point result in the worst team in the history of the league.

Also, it's not like we're applying some weird standard of loyalty that privileges players who immediately want to sign with only North Texas. Take Kason Martin (our big QB get for the class of 18) for example. He felt comfortable publicly proclaiming in his first interview with Vito that he desperately wanted to play for Texas Tech and only committed to the Mean Green when his Red Raider dream died (and he had no other place to go to play D1 FBS football). Then, he basically stated that he was happy to come here where at least he could play under a Red Raider offensive coordinator. I don't blame Kason Martin for having this attitude. He's a high school student just figuring out his life and learning how to best interact with the media. But, I do blame North Texas for somehow giving young recruits the idea that we're essentially a backup plan destination.

Also, this odd rationalization that we're losing recruiting battles to UTSA because of our lack of recent NFL draft picks is just preposterous. They have, what, a grand total of one player in their history taken in the draft? Meanwhile, we have NFL Hall of Famers to our credit. But, none of that matters, because it has nothing to do with either team's current coaching staff. Is it not possible that the simplest explanation in this case is the correct one? Our coaches, when going up against UTSA or most other G5 schools (hell, even lower tier P5) just aren't controlling the narrative. They aren't able to sell our potential vs other programs. I have confidence that they will fix the problem, but right now, we should be deeply troubled.

Ben Gooding · June 22, 2017

1 hour ago, Greendylan said:

Let me put it another way:

If we sign a whole class of guys who had virtually no other FBS offers, then that would be like an NFL team opting out of the draft and then waiting for every single free agent (veteran or rookie) to sign with other teams before seeing who still was available to offer a minimum contract. Fans might love the players who ended up slipping through the cracks and ending up with that team, but they would be outraged by the strategy. Doing that for a single year would be disastrous. Doing that year after year would would at some point result in the worst team in the history of the league.

Also, it's not like we're applying some weird standard of loyalty that privileges players who immediately want to sign with only North Texas. Take Kason Martin (our big QB get for the class of 18) for example. He felt comfortable publicly proclaiming in his first interview with Vito that he desperately wanted to play for Texas Tech and only committed to the Mean Green when his Red Raider dream died (and he had no other place to go to play D1 FBS football). Then, he basically stated that he was happy to come here where at least he could play under a Red Raider offensive coordinator. I don't blame Kason Martin for having this attitude. He's a high school student just figuring out his life and learning how to best interact with the media. But, I do blame North Texas for somehow giving young recruits the idea that we're essentially a backup plan destination.

Also, this odd rationalization that we're losing recruiting battles to UTSA because of our lack of recent NFL draft picks is just preposterous. They have, what, a grand total of one player in their history taken in the draft? Meanwhile, we have NFL Hall of Famers to our credit. But, none of that matters, because it has nothing to do with either team's current coaching staff. Is it not possible that the simplest explanation in this case is the correct one? Our coaches, when going up against UTSA or most other G5 schools (hell, even lower tier P5) just aren't controlling the narrative. They aren't able to sell our potential vs other programs. I have confidence that they will fix the problem, but right now, we should be deeply troubled.

Bravo. Very well put.

We all need to grasp this.

Cr1028 · June 22, 2017

3 hours ago, Greendylan said:

Let me put it another way:

If we sign a whole class of guys who had virtually no other FBS offers, then that would be like an NFL team opting out of the draft and then waiting for every single free agent (veteran or rookie) to sign with other teams before seeing who still was available to offer a minimum contract. Fans might love the players who ended up slipping through the cracks and ending up with that team, but they would be outraged by the strategy. Doing that for a single year would be disastrous. Doing that year after year would would at some point result in the worst team in the history of the league.

That's a terrible analogy. In the NFL, the teams choose. In the NCAA, the athlete chooses. It's more akin to free agency then the draft. If we had NFL privilege we'd probably get to draft in the first 5 picks.

Quote

Also, it's not like we're applying some weird standard of loyalty that privileges players who immediately want to sign with only North Texas. Take Kason Martin (our big QB get for the class of 18) for example. He felt comfortable publicly proclaiming in his first interview with Vito that he desperately wanted to play for Texas Tech and only committed to the Mean Green when his Red Raider dream died (and he had no other place to go to play D1 FBS football). Then, he basically stated that he was happy to come here where at least he could play under a Red Raider offensive coordinator. I don't blame Kason Martin for having this attitude. He's a high school student just figuring out his life and learning how to best interact with the media. But, I do blame North Texas for somehow giving young recruits the idea that we're essentially a backup plan destination.

Backup plan to a Big12 program and the young man's dream school is not a bad place to be. He didn't say we were the backup plan to UTSA.

Quote

Also, this odd rationalization that we're losing recruiting battles to UTSA because of our lack of recent NFL draft picks is just preposterous. They have, what, a grand total of one player in their history taken in the draft? Meanwhile, we have NFL Hall of Famers to our credit. But, none of that matters, because it has nothing to do with either team's current coaching staff.

One player in their extensive 6 year history yes. Meanwhile our grand 100-plus year old program hasn't had a draft pick in 13 years and just that one in the last 22 years. You realize that these recruits were 4 years old when Cody Spencer was drafted right? Despite only having one draft pick, UTSA's at least happened while these recruits were in high school. Outside of maybe Joe Greene, these recruits have no clue who the draftees were that played for us all those years ago.

Greendylan · June 22, 2017

3 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

That's a terrible analogy. In the NFL, the teams choose. In the NCAA, the athlete chooses. It's more akin to free agency then the draft. If we had NFL privilege we'd probably get to draft in the first 5 picks.

Backup plan to a Big12 program and the young man's dream school is not a bad place to be. He didn't say we were the backup plan to UTSA.

One player in their extensive 6 year history yes. Meanwhile our grand 100-plus year old program hasn't had a draft pick in 13 years and just that one in the last 22 years. You realize that these recruits were 4 years old when Cody Spencer was drafted right? Despite only having one draft pick, UTSA's at least happened while these recruits were in high school. Outside of maybe Joe Greene, these recruits have no clue who the draftees were that played for us all those years ago.

Respectfully, I think you are missing the bigger point behind what I'm saying.

1. I did discuss free agency in the NFL and not just the draft. Of course there is going to be a bit of an apples-oranges comparison problem when examining pro and college football side by side. In this context, however, the draft is relevant, because my point is that no team on any level can survive by only acquiring players that their opponents don't want. It really doesn't matter one bit if it's teams choosing players or players choosing teams. If we can't make our peers at least a little envious of our recruiting class each cycle, then we are in trouble. For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is a controversial opinion on GMG these days.

2. I don't feel comfortable saying anything more about Kason Martin, as he really isn't the object of my ire anyway. I'll just say this: It's not about WHAT school a recruit would ideally prefer over North Texas. It's about the attitude/enthusiasm the player has when committing to us--an attitude that we should be instilling through our recruiting pitches. Really this all just goes back to (1) above. If we are rarely ever winning head to head recruiting battles against ANY other FBS teams, and are forced to build a roster comprised of guys who had no other opportunity to play D1 FBS football, then we are ALWAYS the backup plan.

3. I think you proved my point by mentioning, correctly, that the past doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to teenagers. Thus, regarding UTSA, it's a wash because both schools' current coaches have only completed a single season--with similar results. Neither one can realistically claim to be a better springboard to NFL stardom.

The bottom line is that we have a lot to sell both as a football program and an educational institution. If we are consistently losing head to head recruiting battles with schools like UTSA, then we probably aren't doing a good job of selling. And, while we will undoubtedly accrue some awesome players with no other scholarship offers, losing the argument every single time we say to someone "hey, come play for us instead of those other guys" is a big problem. Can we at least agree on those two points?

Ben Gooding · June 22, 2017

3 hours ago, Greendylan said:

Respectfully, I think you are missing the bigger point behind what I'm saying.

1. I did discuss free agency in the NFL and not just the draft. Of course there is going to be a bit of an apples-oranges comparison problem when examining pro and college football side by side. In this context, however, the draft is relevant, because my point is that no team on any level can survive by only acquiring players that their opponents don't want. It really doesn't matter one bit if it's teams choosing players or players choosing teams. If we can't make our peers at least a little envious of our recruiting class each cycle, then we are in trouble. For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is a controversial opinion on GMG these days.

2. I don't feel comfortable saying anything more about Kason Martin, as he really isn't the object of my ire anyway. I'll just say this: It's not about WHAT school a recruit would ideally prefer over North Texas. It's about the attitude/enthusiasm the player has when committing to us--an attitude that we should be instilling through our recruiting pitches. Really this all just goes back to (1) above. If we are rarely ever winning head to head recruiting battles against ANY other FBS teams, and are forced to build a roster comprised of guys who had no other opportunity to play D1 FBS football, then we are ALWAYS the backup plan.

3. I think you proved my point by mentioning, correctly, that the past doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot to teenagers. Thus, regarding UTSA, it's a wash because both schools' current coaches have only completed a single season--with similar results. Neither one can realistically claim to be a better springboard to NFL stardom.

The bottom line is that we have a lot to sell both as a football program and an educational institution. If we are consistently losing head to head recruiting battles with schools like UTSA, then we probably aren't doing a good job of selling. And, while we will undoubtedly accrue some awesome players with no other scholarship offers, losing the argument every single time we say to someone "hey, come play for us instead of those other guys" is a big problem. Can we at least agree on those two points?

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It's simple to understand. If, for whatever reason, we were gong after a lot of these guys early and ONLY these guys (the one's with FCS offers only) then I could fall into the trap of believing they might actually be schematic players and SL might be a genius (granted he were to win with them). But, we're not just going after these guys. And up until now, we only really went after these guys late to fill slots. So it's kind of even more troublesome we're doing it this early now. As if the towel has been mailed in on this front to say.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · June 22, 2017

16 hours ago, Greendylan said:

Let me put it another way:

If we sign a whole class of guys who had virtually no other FBS offers, then that would be like an NFL team opting out of the draft and then waiting for every single free agent (veteran or rookie) to sign with other teams before seeing who still was available to offer a minimum contract. Fans might love the players who ended up slipping through the cracks and ending up with that team, but they would be outraged by the strategy. Doing that for a single year would be disastrous. Doing that year after year would would at some point result in the worst team in the history of the league.

Also, it's not like we're applying some weird standard of loyalty that privileges players who immediately want to sign with only North Texas. Take Kason Martin (our big QB get for the class of 18) for example. He felt comfortable publicly proclaiming in his first interview with Vito that he desperately wanted to play for Texas Tech and only committed to the Mean Green when his Red Raider dream died (and he had no other place to go to play D1 FBS football). Then, he basically stated that he was happy to come here where at least he could play under a Red Raider offensive coordinator. I don't blame Kason Martin for having this attitude. He's a high school student just figuring out his life and learning how to best interact with the media. But, I do blame North Texas for somehow giving young recruits the idea that we're essentially a backup plan destination.

Also, this odd rationalization that we're losing recruiting battles to UTSA because of our lack of recent NFL draft picks is just preposterous. They have, what, a grand total of one player in their history taken in the draft? Meanwhile, we have NFL Hall of Famers to our credit. But, none of that matters, because it has nothing to do with either team's current coaching staff. Is it not possible that the simplest explanation in this case is the correct one? Our coaches, when going up against UTSA or most other G5 schools (hell, even lower tier P5) just aren't controlling the narrative. They aren't able to sell our potential vs other programs. I have confidence that they will fix the problem, but right now, we should be deeply troubled.

Agree 146%. The NFL analogy is spot on, dude. Hadn't thought of it from that angle. Everyone loves the Bill Bates-type stories. But, how many undrafted guys become Bill Bates. You can't have 52 on your roster. I'd argue you wouldn't even be able to find 26, or 13 like that.

Talent is talent. And to each level - NFL, FBS P5, FBS G5, FCS, D II, etc. - it exists to whatever degree. So, again, when a kid who has been through camp after camp after camp over three to four summers, and coach after coach after coach has seen film of him or his team, and he has no FBS offers...something has been determined by people who have been working at that level for years.

If we have a kid who has at least another G5 offer to two, I'm good. It shows me that another FBS-level coaching staff somewhere sees that the kid might develop. I believe after years of watching football, coaches do know to which level each player can realistically aspire.

They see Adrian Peterson or D'Onta Foreman on film, and they see Antoinne Jimmerson or Jeremi Mathis. Okay, there's a difference. Peterson and Foreman were obviously men among boys. You knew they'd be pro if they could just stay relatively injury and police botter-free for three or four years.

Jimmerson was a good back for us. Had a really good prep career. But, he wasn't Peterson or Foreman. There's no shame in that. He never rushed for even 600 yards for us, and finished with just under 2,000 in a four year career. He was, at times, excellent. For the vast majority of the time, he simply was what he was...a pretty good prep back who occasionally made a big play at a G5 college.

But, again, he was a one offer guy, us and no one else: http://www.scout.com/player/124367-antoine-jimmerson/recruiting?year=2010&s=537

Jeremi Mathis from the Dodge era was the same. Nice high school back. Like Jimmerson at DeSoto, he played at a reliable prep football school that regularly has kids signed to college scholarships in Arlington Martin. Mathis even had FBS offers from G5 schools. But, he never panned out.

And, again, there's no shame in that. The P5s knew not to offer him. A few G5s thought he might have something in the bag.

At some point, there has to be a coach that can change the recruiting. Somehow UTSA landed a guy. It's frustrating to a degree. We all want the best for UNT.

The issue isn't whether Seth Littrell is a good, nice guy or not. We all know he's football smart. His coaching staff also seems to be comprised on nice guys who are football smart - even if he chose not to hire very experienced guys on the offensive side.

The issue is, what are we getting? So far, it is not any different than Simon, Dickey, Dodge, or McCarney. Not better, not worse. Just about the same. Which would be fine, to me, if they were paying Littrell and his assistants the same.

Like anything else in life, if I'm paying more for something - a car, a house, a service, a product...dishwashing liquid...whatever you can name - I expect more out of it that if I shlep into the Family Dollar and start filling my cart. With few exceptions.

Edited June 22, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

techdawg88 · June 22, 2017

IDK how a recruiting thread turned into a Ruston bashing contest

GMG24 · June 22, 2017

30 minutes ago, techdawg88 said:

IDK how a recruiting thread turned into a Ruston bashing contest

When people don't have a reason for complaining they turn to things like that.

Ben Gooding · June 22, 2017

52 minutes ago, techdawg88 said:

IDK how a recruiting thread turned into a Ruston bashing contest

Simple. We're desperate to point out our own flaws since our recruiting is so bad. With that, we start pointing out the flaws of programs recruiting well.

22 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

When people don't have a reason for complaining they turn to things like that.

There is plenty of concerning issues to complain about. They all revolve around recruiting. I don't want to be the jackass on here in 18 months saying, "I told you so." I really hope things pan out.

MeanGreenTexan · June 22, 2017

58 minutes ago, techdawg88 said:

IDK how a recruiting thread turned into a Ruston bashing contest

@techdawg88, you seem like a level-headed poster on here, so you may not take me up on this, but: Could you do me a favor, and share this thread on any/all LATech fan boards, and PM the most obnoxious, football-stupid fans you have to come on here and troll us please. We need to develop a "rivalry" with you guys.

Ben Gooding · June 22, 2017

18 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

@techdawg88, you seem like a level-headed poster on here, so you may not take me up on this, but: Could you do me a favor, and share this thread on any/all LATech fan boards, and PM the most obnoxious, football-stupid fans you have to come on here and troll us please. We need to develop a "rivalry" with you guys.

I second this.

GMG24 · June 23, 2017

3 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Simple. We're desperate to point out our own flaws since our recruiting is so bad. With that, we start pointing out the flaws of programs recruiting well.

There is plenty of concerning issues to complain about. They all revolve around recruiting. I don't want to be the jackass on here in 18 months saying, "I told you so." I really hope things pan out.

I don't think you will be, but time will tell. Yes as of now recruiting isn't looking great but I'd like to see how the class turns out come signing day. We were close to landing two of the most highly regarded juco WR out there and Fau came in and made some questionable decisions and flipped McNeal.