This is a challenge

Cr1028 · June 18, 2017

1 hour ago, p_phelps said:

In all fairness Orr should have been drafted, even more so looking hindsight. But you're correct, we aren't a pipeline to the NFL. But again, doesn't that go to recruiting talented enough players in the first place? Like @BillySee58 said. Good recruiters can recruit anywhere! I know its FCS but how the hell does North Dakota St get kids. Not now because they have been a power for a long time, but how did they get kids to go to North Freaking Dakota before they are the power they are now. I was excited to get SL here with some youth because I thought he would understand the recruiting aspect, or at least be better at it than we have become accustom to.

I don't know when they became a power but NDSU has had nine players drafted since 2002. You may be unaware but the average rating for players in our class was better than NDSU's for the '17 class. .7789 to .7599.

The fact that Orr did not get drafted is just another tool in the tool chest for those recruiting against us. Hey look, this guy was all conference, turned out to be an all pro and still couldn't get drafted because he went to North Texas. If he had gone to our fine institution of "fill in the blank university", he surely would've been drafted.

You are thinking if you have a good enough salesman, you can get a businessman who wants and has money for a new Mercedes and can talk him into a used Kia. I just don't think that is the case.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Cr1028

p_phelps · June 18, 2017

40 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

I don't know when they became a power but NDSU has had nine players drafted since 2002. You may be unaware but the average rating for players in to class was better than NDSU's for the '17 class. .7789 to .7599.

The fact that Orr did not get drafted is just another tool in the tool chest for those recruiting against us. Hey look, this guy was all conference, turned out to be an all pro and still couldn't get drafted because he went to North Texas. If he had gone to our fine institution of "fill in the blank university", he surely would've been drafted.

You are thinking if you have a good enough salesman, you can get a businessman who wants and has money for a new Mercedes and can talk him into a used Kia. I just don't think that is the case.

My Point!! An FCS school in NORTH DAKOTA gets just about the same players as we do! We are in the metroplex of the best football in the nation! Don't you see somthing wrong that we just barley beat an FCS school!? If you don't think we need better recruiters than what would you suggest "fix " our football program? Only way I see it is to get better football players in here.

Ben Gooding · June 18, 2017

15 hours ago, cdizzle86 said:

I hate losing recruiting battles just as much as the next guy, but I'm more concerned with wins and losses. If we develop talent better and win more then I could care less about recruiting.

Perfect example is the Dodge era. We recruited some of the best players during that time but couldn't win to save our lives.

Prove them wrong Coach Littrell.

Ahh yes, the good ole UNT logic that has consistently never worked.

Littrell will not last at this pace. I think at this point it's safe to say that Littrell and his comrades can't recruit. Can't recruit, can't win. Simple as that. Time will sort it out, but my expectations/excitement have dimmed quite a bit.

Cr1028 · June 18, 2017

32 minutes ago, p_phelps said:

My Point!! An FCS school in NORTH DAKOTA gets just about the same players as we do! We are in the metroplex of the best football in the nation! Don't you see somthing wrong that we just barley beat an FCS school!? If you don't think we need better recruiters than what would you suggest "fix " our football program? Only way I see it is to get better football players in here.

You mean the FCS team with 5 consecutive national championships this decade having a worse recruiting class than a team that hasn't won a fbs conference championship in a bottom-feeder conference in 12 years and just one winning season in that span? I guess it is a little surprising.

The only way to fix this program's recruiting is a two-pronged attack. You are going to have to first win with the players you have and can get, and second you are going have to get one of those players drafted each year or every other year. Then and only then will you see us pulling big offer list kids. You can complain all you want but I guarantee you that Frank Wilson, unless he is using questionable tactics, would have the exact same problems here as Littrell does.

If our recruiting sucks so bad, then why in hell would P5 schools be interested but in hiring our coaches away with such poor results? Think about it. There is a stigma about our university that we are too prideful to realize sometimes. The problem didn't start overnight and it cannot be fixed overnight.

14 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Ahh yes, the good ole UNT logic that has consistently never worked.

Littrell will not last at this pace. I think at this point it's safe to say that Littrell and his comrades can't recruit. Can't recruit, can't win. Simple as that. Time will sort it out, but my expectations/excitement have dimmed quite a bit.

Ben, I hope you grow some patience or learn to get out like 90 did because you are set to be a rat in a wheel bud. Until some things change around here, every new coach will have the same problems going forward that every coach since our return to fbs has had. Littrell is the best coach we have had in a long time. He is a rising star. And the only metric he should be measured by is wins and losses because that is what he is paid to do. He is here to win on the scoreboard, not on rivals or 247. If he wins on some bs recruiting site, that is a bonus but the only metric that should matter is following the rules and winning.

p_phelps · June 18, 2017

3 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

You mean the FCS team with 5 consecutive national championships this decade having a worse recruiting class than a team that hasn't won a fbs conference championship in a bottom-feeder conference in 12 years and just one winning season in that span? I guess it is a little surprising.

The only way to fix this program's recruiting is a two-pronged attack. You are going to have to first win with the players you have and can get, and second you are going have to get one of those players drafted each year or every other year. Then and only then will you see us pulling big offer list kids. You can complain all you want but I guarantee you that Frank Wilson, unless he is using questionable tactics, would have the exact same problems here as Littrell does.

If our recruiting sucks so bad, then why in hell would P5 schools be interested but in hiring our coaches away with such poor results? Think about it. There is a stigma about our university that we are too prideful to realize sometimes. The problem didn't start overnight and it cannot be fixed overnight.

You can't guarantee Frank Wilson would have the same problems. He was hired because he is a recruiter, SL has never been deemed such. People recognize the potential SL has as a coach and he took a 1 win program to a bowel game in his 1st year. That's why people want him. Stock is high but does not change the fact that we have been in the bottom half of recruiting in the CUSA every class with SL. This is the 3rd class and the pattern is we can't beat anyone that can compare to us. I'm not upset we aren't beating UT or OU. Hell I get even SMU, LA Tech, Marshall. But when we have NEVER beat UTSA out for a recruit and RICE is getting players we have offered, it's a problem. Even if an offer list is UNT, SFA, and Abilene Christian I would still be nervous about getting that recruit. You can quickly turn a program around, It happens all the time! W. Michigan had a quick turn around a few yrs ago and kept building on it through last yr just the latest example.

Harry · June 18, 2017

8 minutes ago, p_phelps said:

You can't guarantee Frank Wilson would have the same problems. He was hired because he is a recruiter, SL has never been deemed such

We don't need Litttell to be a great recruiter. We just need him to hire coaches that can.

Who is the recruiting lead on this staff right now? Does Littrell have the recruiting support he and the program needs?

BTG_Fan1 · June 18, 2017

3 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

I don't know when they became a power but NDSU has had nine players drafted since 2002. You may be unaware but the average rating for players in our class was better than NDSU's for the '17 class. .7789 to .7599.

The fact that Orr did not get drafted is just another tool in the tool chest for those recruiting against us. Hey look, this guy was all conference, turned out to be an all pro and still couldn't get drafted because he went to North Texas. If he had gone to our fine institution of "fill in the blank university", he surely would've been drafted.

You are thinking if you have a good enough salesman, you can get a businessman who wants and has money for a new Mercedes and can talk him into a used Kia. I just don't think that is the case.

This is true that not getting guys drafted has hurt us. What also hurt us is that the previous staff didn't seem to have connections like the staffs that SL has brought in. EK had multiple kids playing in the NFL, SL has multiple kids playing and recruited/coached the #2 pick this year, among other coaches.

It would be wise and woulda been wise for UNT_Gridiron to have tweeted out a congratulations to the Cowboys drafted WR Swisher (Beleive that's his name) from UNC because of the SL connection. UNT has to find a way to get Swisher to talk about what SL has done and that will help UNT recruit kids as well.

2 hours ago, p_phelps said:

My Point!! An FCS school in NORTH DAKOTA gets just about the same players as we do! We are in the metroplex of the best football in the nation! Don't you see somthing wrong that we just barley beat an FCS school!? If you don't think we need better recruiters than what would you suggest "fix " our football program? Only way I see it is to get better football players in here.

How many schools are recruiting in schools are looking for kinds in all of ND compared to how many schools come to DFW? I'm going to say UNT has a lot more competition within DFW than NDSU has in its entire state.

1 hour ago, Cr1028 said:

You mean the FCS team with 5 consecutive national championships this decade having a worse recruiting class than a team that hasn't won a fbs conference championship in a bottom-feeder conference in 12 years and just one winning season in that span? I guess it is a little surprising.

The only way to fix this program's recruiting is a two-pronged attack. You are going to have to first win with the players you have and can get, and second you are going have to get one of those players drafted each year or every other year. Then and only then will you see us pulling big offer list kids. You can complain all you want but I guarantee you that Frank Wilson, unless he is using questionable tactics, would have the exact same problems here as Littrell does.

If our recruiting sucks so bad, then why in hell would P5 schools be interested but in hiring our coaches away with such poor results? Think about it. There is a stigma about our university that we are too prideful to realize sometimes. The problem didn't start overnight and it cannot be fixed overnight.

Ben, I hope you grow some patience or learn to get out like 90 did because you are set to be a rat in a wheel bud. Until some things change around here, every new coach will have the same problems going forward that every coach since our return to fbs has had. Littrell is the best coach we have had in a long time. He is a rising star. And the only metric he should be measured by is wins and losses because that is what he is paid to do. He is here to win on the scoreboard, not on rivals or 247. If he wins on some bs recruiting site, that is a bonus but the only metric that should matter is following the rules and winning.

This staff has been talked about by a number of different media sources as a staff that is improving. This team has to improve after the whole Mac era. The coaches are out and we have multiple times that they feel a change in denton and how UNT is viewed. Keep this change going for 2 or 3 seasons and that will hopefully get rid of the losing history here at UNT. We also, have to be willing to invest in this program. WB and NS have to give SL and other coaches all the possible advantages possible. Increased recruiting budgets, new and improved facilities, and access to fans who want to invest.

GMG24 · June 18, 2017

2 hours ago, Harry said:

We don't need Litttell to be a great recruiter. We just need him to hire coaches that can.

Who is the recruiting lead on this staff right now? Does Littrell have the recruiting support he and the program needs?

Haven't met Koonz, Langston, Yellock. But I'd answer your question with maybe Brown. Then I'd say a definite No! We have a staff of solid coaches, that are learning how to recruit.

Coaching Experience breakdown

OC Graham Harrell- 1 year outside WR at Washington state, 1 year OC

RB Coach Littrell- we all know who's coaching there.. 0 exp

Outside WR Joel Filani- 2 years GA Boise st, 1 year Offensive QC at Washington state, 1 year outside WR UNT

Inside WR Tommy Mainord- student assistant and coach at Tarleton for 6 years, 3 years at SHSU, 2 years OC at Lamar, 3 years at Tech, 3 years at Kentucky (he's never landed a 4 star recruit according to 247)

OL Chuck Langston- 1 year GA 3 years TE/DL OU, UCO, Trinity Valley HC, Euless Trinity, and Lamar. Total 20 years.

D.C. Troy Reffett-

kids losing his mind ill I'll finish later.

Edited June 18, 2017 by GMG24

MGNation92 · June 18, 2017

Seth Littrell's best recruiting class was his first, you know, the one where he didn't have a full cycle to recruit? Somehow he has gotten worse as time has gone on. I'm really glad other people are starting to take notice. Our recruiting is God awful and we continue to see kids who had other FBS offers choose them over us.

We can identify all the talent in the world, but if we can never win a recruiting battle, what's the point?

Ben Gooding · June 18, 2017

43 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Seth Littrell's best recruiting class was his first, you know, the one where he didn't have a full cycle to recruit? Somehow he has gotten worse as time has gone on. I'm really glad other people are starting to take notice. Our recruiting is God awful and we continue to see kids who had other FBS offers choose them over us.

We can identify all the talent in the world, but if we can never win a recruiting battle, what's the point?

Because it's not a happy go lucky opinion. Bum recruiting is what is happening. If there is not an uptick very quickly, we will be a below average CUSA team and Seth Littrell will be gone at the end of 2018 season, mid 2019 at the latest. There is no way to consistently win with what we're pulling. It's the reality we're in.

UNTLifer · June 18, 2017

Littrell has been a head coach one, ONE year. He took a team that was horrible and turned them around and got them to a bowl, so stating he can't win is wrong and way premature. Recruiting is difficult at NorthTexas. We have a history, at least since Fry left, of not doing well and being the low man on the totem pole in the DFW area. Bad history, poor facilities and funding just enough to stay afloat. These are the things SL and staff must overcome namely, changing our reputation with all lf the coaches and players where we recruit. UTSA doesn't have that history to overcome. They can promise the moon to their recruits. Come build the program while we build blah, blah, blah, ... It is all new.

We need SL and staff to coach and develop like crazy, find those diamonds in the rough and kids from smaller schools that are overlooked like Chancellor and Wilson and change the culture and perception. I still haven't given up on his recruiting considering most are just starting to contribute, but Wilson, Bussey, Smith, Hamilton, Jenkins, Fine, Muhammed have all been key in our improvement and his second class is just setting foot in Denton, but this year we should start to see the higher rated kids choosing NT.

Ben Gooding · June 19, 2017

2 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Littrell has been a head coach one, ONE year. He took a team that was horrible and turned them around and got them to a bowl, so stating he can't win is wrong and way premature. Recruiting is difficult at NorthTexas. We have a history, at least since Fry left, of not doing well and being the low man on the totem pole in the DFW area. Bad history, poor facilities and funding just enough to stay afloat. These are the things SL and staff must overcome namely, changing our reputation with all lf the coaches and players where we recruit. UTSA doesn't have that history to overcome. They can promise the moon to their recruits. Come build the program while we build blah, blah, blah, ... It is all new.

We need SL and staff to coach and develop like crazy, find those diamonds in the rough and kids from smaller schools that are overlooked like Chancellor and Wilson and change the culture and perception. I still haven't given up on his recruiting considering most are just starting to contribute, but Wilson, Bussey, Smith, Hamilton, Jenkins, Fine, Muhammed have all been key in our improvement and his second class is just setting foot in Denton, but this year we should start to see the higher rated kids choosing NT.

IDC about the history they have to overcome and neither should you or anyone else. If you can't get the job done, find another job. His 1st class was better than his second and that's unprecedented especially considering he had 5 weeks to put his 1st class together. His 3rd class has room to develop into something, but the player average is not looking favorable and the trend/momentum is looking worse. We're only where we are in the 247 CUSA rankings because of the quantity, not quality. When the rest of the conference starts landing players, many will surpass us. Many around here continue to gaffe off the facts, but we are recruiting at a losing rate, just as we were with McCarney. Until that changes, even marginally, the losing will continue. Go ask any and all coaching staffs in the country and they'll tell you that recruiting is the lifeline to success. They'll also tell you it's the most difficult part of the job, but it's a part of the job. A significant part of the job that can't be overlooked or down played by the fans due to failure or minimal success.

Perry was arguably the best recruiter we had and Littrell gave him the boot. Our biggest contributor for our largest downfall was sent packing for whatever reason. Then of course we do worse the next class. Coincidence?

UNTLifer · June 19, 2017

So, you would be happier if we weren't landing players now but waiting like the rest of our conference mates? Something tells me you would bitch about that.

Cr1028 · June 19, 2017

40 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

IDC about the history they have to overcome and neither should you or anyone else. If you can't get the job done, find another job.

With an attitude like that, you'll never have a coach worth a damn sign with you. If Wren Baker has the same mindset as you, look for 15 more years of RV-like success.

1-10(worst FBS to FCS loss in history) to 5-8 and a close bowl game loss and you are worried because our class doesn't rank well with a bunch of dipshits like Geoff Ketchum. Give me a freaking break.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Cr1028

MGNation92 · June 19, 2017

6 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

With an attitude like that, you'll never have a coach worth a damn sign with you. If Wren Baker has the same mindset as you, look for 15 more years of RV-like success.

1-10(worst FBS to FCS loss in history) to 5-8 and a close bowl game loss and you are worried because our class doesn't rank well with a bunch of dipshits like Geoff Ketchum. Give me a freaking break.

Our class doesn't rank well with any other FBS coach in the country.

Recruiting services aside literally no other coaching staff thinks these players are FBS quality. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SUCK. I AM NOT SAYING THEY SUCK.

Ben Gooding · June 19, 2017

21 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

So, you would be happier if we weren't landing players now but waiting like the rest of our conference mates? Something tells me you would bitch about that.

Doesn't matter when. We only have 5 commits. There are many in the 1-3 commit

10 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

With an attitude like that, you'll never have a coach worth a damn sign with you. If Wren Baker has the same mindset as you, look for 15 more years of RV-like success.

1-10(worst FBS to FCS loss in history) to 5-8 and a close bowl game loss and you are worried because our class doesn't rank well with a bunch of dipshits like Geoff Ketchum. Give me a freaking break.

range and that's why we're 4th or 5th or whatever we are. But most of their player averages are higher. Hence they are better graded out players and on average they will land better players.

Yes, I'm worried that our classes don't rank well. You should be worried too. Poorly ranked classes create poor teams and of course vice versa. Argue it all you'd like.

Cr1028 · June 19, 2017

10 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Our class doesn't rank well with any other FBS coach in the country.

Recruiting services aside literally no other coaching staff thinks these players are FBS quality. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SUCK. I AM NOT SAYING THEY SUCK.

Yet. 9 months and a full season to go.

11 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Yes, I'm worried that our classes don't rank well. You should be worried too. Poorly ranked classes create poor teams and of course vice versa. Argue it all you'd like.

You think I should be worried but I am not worried at all because all I need to know of Littrell is that he took our 1 win (worst in FBS) team and made them a 5 win team in less than a year.

Ben Gooding · June 19, 2017

8 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Yet. 9 months and a full season to go.

You think I should be worried but I am not worried at all because all I need to know of Littrell is that he took our 1 win (worst in FBS) team and made them a 5 win team in less than a year.

If you're not worried then you are naive and you have your head in the sand.

And we were a 1-win team because of the atmosphere that was allowed to manifest paired with a deadbeat head coach. McCarney's classes leading up to that 1 win season is on par with what Littrell has brought in. Sleep on that.

Cr1028 · June 19, 2017

6 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

If you're not worried then you are naive and you have your head in the sand.

And we were a 1-win team because of the atmosphere that was allowed to manifest paired with a deadbeat head coach. McCarney's classes leading up to that 1 win season is on par with what Littrell has brought in. Sleep on that.

I'm guessing you need a good recruiter to satisfy your coaching needs. Call Todd Dodge, he was the best recruiter we've had in the last twenty years and has the worst record in our history to go along with those fine recruiting classes.

Ben Gooding · June 19, 2017

1 minute ago, Cr1028 said:

I'm guessing you need a good recruiter to satisfy your coaching needs. Call Todd Dodge, he was the best recruiter we've had in the last twenty years and has the worst record in our history to go along with those fine recruiting classes.

Having Todd Dodge on this staff as a primary recruiting assistant would be a blessing. And it would make SL a multi million dollar HC somewhere else.

In the meantime, Frank Wilson is beating Littrells ass on the field and the recruiting trail.

BillySee58 · June 19, 2017

1 hour ago, Cr1028 said:

I'm guessing you need a good recruiter to satisfy your coaching needs. Call Todd Dodge, he was the best recruiter we've had in the last twenty years and has the worst record in our history to go along with those fine recruiting classes.

I don't know why it's such a foreign concept here that a coach could be both. And for $1 million a year he should be

UNTLifer · June 19, 2017

2 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

Our class doesn't rank well with any other FBS coach in the country.

Recruiting services aside literally no other coaching staff thinks these players are FBS quality. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SUCK. I AM NOT SAYING THEY SUCK.

Then what are you saying about these players? You hate that they have committed to us, if you had your choice we would not have offered any of these kids, so i would deduct that you don't think they are any good.

MGNation92 · June 19, 2017

6 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Then what are you saying about these players? You hate that they have committed to us, if you had your choice we would not have offered any of these kids, so i would deduct that you don't think they are any good.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

Glad the kids are getting an opportunity to play D1 ball and for North Texas

The coaching staff needs to do a better job.

BillySee58 · June 19, 2017

5 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Then what are you saying about these players? You hate that they have committed to us, if you had your choice we would not have offered any of these kids, so i would deduct that you don't think they are any good.

16 of the last 17 commitments garnered by this coaching staff have had no other FBS schools actively recruiting them at the time of commitment. The one who did was Antonio Gage, who spent the next month spamming his highlights to various coaches across the country before decommitting.

It's not about the players, it's about the coaches. They are only getting commitments from players with no other offers, and there is no evidence to the contrary that they could get a player they want so long as someone else wants that player. The current look is that we are relegated to choosing between players no one else wants. @MGNation92 and I have both agreed on that, but everyone else seems to think the recruit's are who are being bashed on.