This is a challenge

TheReal_jayD · June 17, 2017

p_phelps · June 17, 2017

4 minutes ago, TheReal_jayD said:

This is unacceptable... UTSA is not a better program than us. We are clearly lacking somewhere in the recruiting process and needs to be addressed immediately. This is not a small matter.

djohnnie · June 17, 2017

12 minutes ago, p_phelps said:

This is unacceptable... UTSA is not a better program than us. We are clearly lacking somewhere in the recruiting process and needs to be addressed immediately. This is not a small matter.

Hard to disagree with your assessment!

GMG

Mean Green 93-98 · June 17, 2017

Displeasing, but unsurprising. Wilson's staff was built for recruiting from the top down, Littrell's was not.

DeepGreen · June 17, 2017

22 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Displeasing, but unsurprising. Wilson's staff was built for recruiting from the top down, Littrell's was not.

And that's how competitive programs are built. Give NutsaK credit, the've done a good job building that program. Their recruiting is impressive.

@UNTSportsFan · June 17, 2017

It's not just UTSA , it's every recruiting battle vs other conference foes like Rice, La Tech , etc

I don't feel like looking it up , but if I recall correctly , we lost every single recruiting battle vs a C-USA member last season

Edited June 17, 2017 by @UNTSportsFan

Caw Caw · June 17, 2017

Serious, semi-related question, did that kid from Denton who was a four-star defensive player make it to San Antonio. I never saw the outcome of his robbery charges and am curious if his offer still stood and he shook the case.

@UNTSportsFan · June 17, 2017

5 minutes ago, Caw Caw said:

Serious, semi-related question, did that kid from Denton who was a four-star defensive player make it to San Antonio. I never saw the outcome of his robbery charges and am curious if his offer still stood and he shook the case.

He didn't sign

Caw Caw · June 17, 2017

2 minutes ago, @UNTSportsFan said:

He didn't sign

Interesting. They held his ratings in the class as long as absolutely possible. I don't know the outcome of the case, but I assume if they could have found a way to take him they would have. Just like Kiffin's first pick ups are baby briles and a Joe Mixon Style FSU transfer. These guys in the college football bigs are willing to go further and cross the line in ways Litrell doesn't seem to be. That doesn't mean we should lose them all, but we're coming to that point, with the coaches who are in the conference that people are going to go further over the line then we are. I'm comfortable with losing on those terms, but maybe some aren't.

@UNTSportsFan · June 17, 2017

To add insult to injury ..

* don't shoot the messenger

Edited June 17, 2017 by @UNTSportsFan

TheReal_jayD · June 17, 2017

38 minutes ago, @UNTSportsFan said:

To add insult to injury ..

* don't shoot the messenger

What a joke.

Mean Green 93-98 · June 17, 2017

1 hour ago, Caw Caw said:

Interesting. They held his ratings in the class as long as absolutely possible. I don't know the outcome of the case, but I assume if they could have found a way to take him they would have. Just like Kiffin's first pick ups are baby briles and a Joe Mixon Style FSU transfer. These guys in the college football bigs are willing to go further and cross the line in ways Litrell doesn't seem to be. That doesn't mean we should lose them all, but we're coming to that point, with the coaches who are in the conference that people are going to go further over the line then we are. I'm comfortable with losing on those terms, but maybe some aren't.

Doing things the right way still takes priority. But advantages exist that are legal, ethical, and moral. We need to create a few more of those.

cdizzle86 · June 17, 2017

I hate losing recruiting battles just as much as the next guy, but I'm more concerned with wins and losses. If we develop talent better and win more then I could care less about recruiting.

Perfect example is the Dodge era. We recruited some of the best players during that time but couldn't win to save our lives.

Prove them wrong Coach Littrell.

Harry · June 18, 2017

33 minutes ago, cdizzle86 said:

I hate losing recruiting battles just as much as the next guy, but I'm more concerned with wins and losses. If we develop talent better and win more then I could care less about recruiting.

Perfect example is the Dodge era. We recruited some of the best players during that time but couldn't win to save our lives.

Prove them wrong Coach Littrell.

Respectfully we've been down this road before. You need to recruit AND develop talent. Our fan base uses "coaching up" as a shield defense for our ongoing concerns on recruiting issues. Dan McCarney was a big advocate of this mentality. We saw how well it worked out for him.

If you want to move this program forward you have to start winning these battles against other G5 programs. Period. Littrell's "coaching up" may not be here for very long. His name is already coming up for p5 jobs. The players we sign will be the foundation of the program for 4-5 years. Plus recruiting success helps build interest and excitement in the program.

You absolutely have the right to support the program and and hope for success while still voicing your concern over recruiting results.

eulessismore · June 18, 2017

38 minutes ago, Harry said:

Respectfully we've been down this road before. You need to recruit AND develop talent. Our fan base uses "coaching up" as a shield defense for our ongoing concerns on recruiting issues. Dan McCarney was a big advocate of this mentality. We saw how well it worked out for him.

If you want to move this program forward you have to start winning these battles against other G5 programs. Period. Littrell's "coaching up" may not be here for very long. His name is already coming up for p5 jobs. The players we sign will be the foundation of the program for 4-5 years. Plus recruiting success helps build interest and excitement in the program.

You absolutely have the right to support the program and and hope for success while still voicing your concern over recruiting results.

I would think if he got hired away for a P5 job, we should be able to build on whatever success caused that. If not, we got bigger problems.

DeepGreen · June 18, 2017

I'll get dinged big time for saying this, but maybe McCarney was right, "North Texas is hard to recruit to".

El Paso Eagle · June 18, 2017

15 minutes ago, DeepGreen said:

I'll get dinged big time for saying this, but maybe McCarney was right, "North Texas is hard to recruit to".

Deep what you see is exactly true. We have years of underperforming as a program and not being perceived to take football Seriously that are hard to overcome. In my opinion, much harder than UTSA starting with a new program. Seth and company have to put the building blocks in place to not only convince but prove to the high school coaches in Texas that North Texas is in for the long term commitment

p_phelps · June 18, 2017

14 minutes ago, DeepGreen said:

I'll get dinged big time for saying this, but maybe McCarney was right, "North Texas is hard to recruit to".

Even if that were true, why wouldn't UTSA be as difficult, or FAU? Those have nothing better than us as far as tract record or facilities. They both have coaches that get recruiting is one of the biggest aspects in turning a program around. Coaching and development is big but you have to have talent to maximize that mindset. One of my biggest disappoinment with this staff is the lack of improvement with recruiting from the previous one.

El Paso Eagle · June 18, 2017

If UTSA is doing this legitimately good for them. But I have a strange feeling that similar to Baylor's rise at some point in the future we will find out that things are happening at UTSA that were not on the up and up. If they do prosper, do other school start looking at recruiting as more important than facilities? More than UTSA I would really like to understand how year after year La Tech seems to produce and recruit so well. I give them respect for what they have done based on the length of time they have done it.

BillySee58 · June 18, 2017

14 minutes ago, p_phelps said:

Even if that were true, why wouldn't UTSA be as difficult, or FAU? Those have nothing better than us as far as tract record or facilities. They both have coaches that get recruiting is one of the biggest aspects in turning a program around. Coaching and development is big but you have to have talent to maximize that mindset. One of my biggest disappoinment with this staff is the lack of improvement with recruiting from the previous one.

Exactly. Coaches who are good at recruiting can recruit anywhere. We have enough to pitch. No one is asking Littrell to outrecruit Texas or Oklahoma. These are the kind of offer lists I'm looking for:

Zach Orr - San Diego State, UTEP, LA Tech, Tulsa

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/24112

Cyril Lemon - FIU, Houston, Missouri, Rice, La Tech, New Mexico St

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2011/cyril-lemon-52411

Mason Y'Barbo - Houston, Louisiana Monroe, FCS Schools

https://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/untmeangreen/2010/01/16/Football-Sulphur-Springs-lineman-commits-5249

Aaron Bellazin - Buffalo, Louisiana Monroe, San Diego State, SMU, UTEP, New Mexico

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2010/aaron-bellazin-64241

Throw in a BIG XII transfer in Marcus Trice, and a lightly recruited undersized player hitting in Brelan Chancellor, and that's the foundation and all-CUSA players on a 9-win team.

I'm not even going to go in-depth on the 2008 class that Dodge pulled, but Dawaylon Cook had Utah, WVU, and TCU offers, Dunbar held AQ Conference offers, and James Hamilton did as well to name a few. You can take a look here:

https://northtexas.rivals.com/commitments/football/2008

Heck, Mccarney's 2014 class had players with solid offer lists, and a lot of those guys committed before the HOD Bowl and even before the season.

Mccarney didn't want to put the effort into recruiting. Anyone involved in recruiting will tell you how little they saw of North Texas at DFW high schools during his tenure. His dual-threat QB comp was Fran Tarkenton. He was completely out of touch and thought his name actually meant something to high school kids. That's why he couldn't recruit well most of his time here.

Good recruiters can sell kids on their program. It has been done here at times. If you put a coach who can recruit here, there's no reason why he wouldn't be near the top of the conference in recruiting. Littrell has time to figure it out, and he really needs to.

Cr1028 · June 18, 2017

@Caw Caw Javaris Steward was indicted on felony charges and best I can tell they are working on some sort of plea deal.

As far as recruiting goes, you can't put all this on Littrell and co. What do the players with all the stars and offers expect to do with that fancy degree they get? not a damn thing! They are looking straight at their pie-in-the-sky NFL dreams.

North Texas has had one player, yes, ONE DAMN PLAYER selected in the NFL draft from 1996 til today. That's right 1 player in the last 22 years or the entirety of every single recruit's life and all but a few of the players on our roster. Rice had 11 and LaTech had 20 in that same span. UTSA had one drafted last year and FAU has had 7 drafted in the last 8 years, including a 3rd rounder this year. The recruits we are after weren't even in kindergarten yet when Cody Spencer was drafted.

You show me the finest recruiter in the world selling one draft pick in 22 years versus a grad assistant selling 7 in the last 8 years including a 3rd rounder this year and I'm telling you the grad assistant would win every time.

Blame Dickey for the 8 years out of 9 he didn't have a draft pick, Dodge for the 4 years he didn't and McCarney for the 5 years he didn't. We've been behind the 8-ball for a long time and unless Littrell gets some of these under-recruited players to the league, we will continue to be behind that 8-ball for many more years and the next coach will have the same recruiting issues. This is our problem for better or worse.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Cr1028

Harry · June 18, 2017

1 hour ago, Cr1028 said:

@Caw Caw Javaris Steward was indicted on felony charges and best I can tell they are working on some sort of plea deal.

As far as recruiting goes, you can't put all this on Littrell and co. What do the players with all the stars and offers expect to do with that fancy degree they get? not a damn thing! They are looking straight at their pie-in-the-sky NFL dreams.

North Texas has had one player, yes, ONE DAMN PLAYER selected in the NFL draft from 1996 til today. That's right 1 player in the lasr 22 years or the entirety of every single recruit's life and all but a few of the players on our roster. Rice had 11 and LaTech had 20 in that same span. UTSA had one drafted last year and FAU has had 7 drafted in the last 8 years, including a 3rd rounder this year. The recruits we are after weren't even in kindergarten yet when Cody Spencer was drafted.

You show me the finest recruiter in the world selling one draft pick in 22 years versus a grad assistant selling 7 in the last 8 years including a 3rd rounder this year and I'm telling you the grad assistant would win every time.

Blame Dickey for the 8 years out of 9 he didn't have a draft pick, Dodge for the 4 years he didn't and McCarney for the 5 years he didn't. We've been behind the 8-ball for a long time and unless Littrell gets some of these under-recruited players to the league, we will continue to be behind that 8-ball for many more years and the next coach will have the same recruiting issues. This is our problem for better or worse.

Solid post. You raise some valid points here.

BTG_Fan1 · June 18, 2017

UNT needs to coach up the kids that we get. Yes it's great to recruit kids, but you have to develop them. UNT isn't getting a kid like AP that can come in and play Day1 and look like an NFL Prospect already. Yes we could recruit kids but you have to develop them. We have seen Wilson recruit well, and he coached UTSA to a bowl game. But we need to see which of them ( SL or Wilson) can truly develop the kids and talent that they have. Give me SL and our staff to develop kids.

Also, again and again it has to be said. UNT is behind TCU/SMU, Rangers, Cowboys, Mavs, Stars, etc in DFW. SA has the Spurs and UTSA. UNT hasn't sent a kid to the pros via the draft. Also, Orr retiring was a major blow to the UNT AD office. Not because just because of him being a solid and up and coming star but because he was a notable target that kids and teams were starting to take notice about. Orr was a major rising LB star, who of all people was basically replacing Ray Lewis, yes an UDFA from UNT that was undersized was replacing one of the better/best LBs in NFL history. When Orr retired UNT, it also probably cost UNT a big potential investor in the program. Not to bash the other UNT players in the NFL but Robertson isn't as flashy as Orr nor does he play in a place known for defense. If Robertson could some how get to BAL, SEA, PIT, that would be huge. Dunbar being in LA will be interesting, but again no clear set role behind Gurley.

UNT needs and this DL to get a lot of pressure this year, and hopefully Jenks and McClain have big years. If Jenks can get 4-6 picks and 1-2 pick 6s that will be huge and McClain if he can do improve, UNT may not see the benefits this year but those are 2 kids who could be NFL Draft worthy. Combs and Keena hopefully can make some noise, will help as well.

But the lack of NFL Success has hurt us, and it hasn't been helped by the losing years either. Go out and go 7-5 or 8-4 this year with a bowl game and continue the wave on positive views that UNT is having. It's been brought up, kids are interested in us, we just have to keep building.

Wag Tag · June 18, 2017

It really is shocking to see this when you consider the difference in facilities and the more prestigious educational side. It just proves how coaches can overcome many obstacles! Western Michigan! Wilson will be hired away before Seth even with them both having success on the field!

p_phelps · June 18, 2017

9 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

@Caw Caw Javaris Steward was indicted on felony charges and best I can tell they are working on some sort of plea deal.

As far as recruiting goes, you can't put all this on Littrell and co. What do the players with all the stars and offers expect to do with that fancy degree they get? not a damn thing! They are looking straight at their pie-in-the-sky NFL dreams.

North Texas has had one player, yes, ONE DAMN PLAYER selected in the NFL draft from 1996 til today. That's right 1 player in the last 22 years or the entirety of every single recruit's life and all but a few of the players on our roster. Rice had 11 and LaTech had 20 in that same span. UTSA had one drafted last year and FAU has had 7 drafted in the last 8 years, including a 3rd rounder this year. The recruits we are after weren't even in kindergarten yet when Cody Spencer was drafted.

You show me the finest recruiter in the world selling one draft pick in 22 years versus a grad assistant selling 7 in the last 8 years including a 3rd rounder this year and I'm telling you the grad assistant would win every time.

Blame Dickey for the 8 years out of 9 he didn't have a draft pick, Dodge for the 4 years he didn't and McCarney for the 5 years he didn't. We've been behind the 8-ball for a long time and unless Littrell gets some of these under-recruited players to the league, we will continue to be behind that 8-ball for many more years and the next coach will have the same recruiting issues. This is our problem for better or worse.

In all fairness Orr should have been drafted, even more so looking hindsight. But you're correct, we aren't a pipeline to the NFL. But again, doesn't that go to recruiting talented enough players in the first place? Like @BillySee58 said. Good recruiters can recruit anywhere! I know its FCS but how the hell does North Dakota St get kids. Not now because they have been a power for a long time, but how did they get kids to go to North Freaking Dakota before they are the power they are now. I was excited to get SL here with some youth because I thought he would understand the recruiting aspect, or at least be better at it than we have become accustom to.