Recruiting

xyresic · June 4, 2017

I mentioned that Seth and Co. will need to build trust with the Texas coaches to improve recruiting each year. I am not an apologist, I do think recruiting should be a bit better now although it's still early.

My favorite argument is look at what UTSA has done. Hmm, I wonder how they instantly have become so much more attractive to recruits? I'm sure that all of the whispers from fans and AD employees across several schools that they are now a dirty program can't be true.

I'm sure it is also a coincidence that they hired Bo Davis who got popped by the NCAA. The off the record chatter is that he was paying players then took the fall for the Bama program as a whole.

So yes our recruiting needs to be stepped up, but I don't think comparisons with schools like UTSA that run dirty programs are apples to apples.

Look at Baylor, their recruiting turned on a dime and they really improved - but there is no question now that there was a huge cost to what they did. Briles was another coach that everyone always whispered about. Those whispers turned out to be correct.

I'm sure this post will get negative feedback and heck some people like Ben may not care about the rules - but I do and I'm glad we are attempting to build something with out stepping outside of them.

drex · June 4, 2017

What price glory? That is the eternal question. What are we willing to do to improve markedly. If North Texas turned into a Baylor would you still be proud? Would you still follow the Mean Green?

Cr1028 · June 4, 2017

2 hours ago, drex said:

What price glory? That is the eternal question. What are we willing to do to improve markedly. If North Texas turned into a Baylor would you still be proud? Would you still follow the Mean Green?

sean-connery-here-endeth-what-are-you-pr

BTG_Fan1 · June 5, 2017

How many of the coaches had ties to Texas like Wilson down at UTSA? Wilson worked in Tx when he was LSU. Wilson had many ties to TX and possibly more than most of the coaches combined

UNTLifer · June 5, 2017

7 hours ago, drex said:

What price glory? That is the eternal question. What are we willing to do to improve markedly. If North Texas turned into a Baylor would you still be proud? Would you still follow the Mean Green?

Would I still be proud? Nope. Would I still follow the Mean Green? Depends how the Administration and BOR responded.

UNT Mean Green · June 5, 2017

UT$A

@UNTSportsFan · June 5, 2017

UTSA recruiting was thriving way before Davis came along, he wasn't even hired till after signing day. Frank Wilson is just flat out a great recruiter

Edited June 5, 2017 by @UNTSportsFan

MGNation92 · June 5, 2017

Yeah I'd like to see the proof of being a dirty program.

I'm all for calling out cheaters but until there's some concrete evidence the only thing we see is UTSA outrecruiting us badly and getting further and further ahead.

I just think it's a bit disingenuous to say "well they're beating us in recruiting, they have to be cheating!"

UNTLifer · June 5, 2017

I also don't like calling a program dirty without proof. Bo Davis is dirty, but their head coach has never been investigated that I can tell.

Now, let's look at their commits to date:

Sheldon Jones, WR, 3 star with offers from Jackson State, La-Mo, Memphis and Texas State. No other offers at the time of commitment.

Andrew McGowan, WR, 3 star with other offers from Army and Texas State. No other offers at the time of commitment.

Kelechi Nwachuku, S, 3 star with other offers from Army, Columbia, La-Mo, McNeese State, Rice and Yale. Only a McNeese offer when committed.

Spencer Burford-Watts, OT, 2 star with other offers from nobody.

So, at the time of these players commitments and based upon so many board member's opinions that other offers tell the real story, are they really killing us on the recruiting trail?

GMG24 · June 5, 2017

34 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

I also don't like calling a program dirty without proof. Bo Davis is dirty, but their head coach has never been investigated that I can tell.

Now, let's look at their commits to date:

Sheldon Jones, WR, 3 star with offers from Jackson State, La-Mo, Memphis and Texas State. No other offers at the time of commitment.

Andrew McGowan, WR, 3 star with other offers from Army and Texas State. No other offers at the time of commitment.

Kelechi Nwachuku, S, 3 star with other offers from Army, Columbia, La-Mo, McNeese State, Rice and Yale. Only a McNeese offer when committed.

Spencer Burford-Watts, OT, 2 star with other offers from nobody.

So, at the time of these players commitments and based upon so many board member's opinions that other offers tell the real story, are they really killing us on the recruiting trail?

Previous classes yes this class, so far no.

MGNation92 · June 5, 2017

34 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

I also don't like calling a program dirty without proof. Bo Davis is dirty, but their head coach has never been investigated that I can tell.

Now, let's look at their commits to date:

Sheldon Jones, WR, 3 star with offers from Jackson State, La-Mo, Memphis and Texas State. No other offers at the time of commitment.

Andrew McGowan, WR, 3 star with other offers from Army and Texas State. No other offers at the time of commitment.

Kelechi Nwachuku, S, 3 star with other offers from Army, Columbia, La-Mo, McNeese State, Rice and Yale. Only a McNeese offer when committed.

Spencer Burford-Watts, OT, 2 star with other offers from nobody.

So, at the time of these players commitments and based upon so many board member's opinions that other offers tell the real story, are they really killing us on the recruiting trail?

I'm just going off of previous years results. Right now we're ahead in recruiting but they've clearly outrecruited us so far, especially last year and that's all we have to compare between Wilson/Littrell as far as concrete results.

Aldo · June 5, 2017

My recommendation is to recruit better and also win, regardless of what anyone else does, or what we think anyone else is doing.

BillySee58 · June 5, 2017

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

So, at the time of these players commitments and based upon so many board member's opinions that other offers tell the real story, are they really killing us on the recruiting trail?

I wouldn't say that they are killing us on the recruiting trail this class, as of now, just based on commits. The difference is, they have continually shown the ability to win head-to-head recruiting battles where we have not. The last 11 commits the previous cycle all had just us as the only FBS school actively recruiting them. UTSA was getting guys like this, who committed to them after official visits to Kansas State and Texas Tech.

http://247sports.com/Recruitment/Samuel-Barnes-94851/RecruitInterests

and these

http://247sports.com/Player/Taylor-Perry-37330/TimelineEvents

http://247sports.com/player/javontavius-mosley-87892

http://247sports.com/player/tariq-woolen-46035648

http://247sports.com/Player/Morris-Joseph-87962/TimelineEvents

We aren't necessarily off to a bad start. Our start just hasn't shown any real change from the end of the last cycle. Our coaches still have yet to prove that. Their coaches have already, in the same amount of time on the job.

Cerebus · June 5, 2017

4 hours ago, @UNTSportsFan said:

Frank Wilson is just flat out a great recruiter

Yes Frank Wilson has killed it where ever he has been, whatever level he has been. The #1 thing I heard when he was hired was "hell of a recruiter, we'll find out if he can be a head coach."

Cr1028 · June 5, 2017

4 hours ago, @UNTSportsFan said:

UTSA recruiting was thriving way before Davis came along, he wasn't even hired till after signing day. Frank Wilson is just flat out a great recruiter

2 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

Yeah I'd like to see the proof of being a dirty program.

I'm all for calling out cheaters but until there's some concrete evidence the only thing we see is UTSA outrecruiting us badly and getting further and further ahead.

I just think it's a bit disingenuous to say "well they're beating us in recruiting, they have to be cheating!"

Cheating? So far not known. Ethical? Probably not.

You all seem to forget that their top rated recruit from the 2017 class is currently under 1st degree felony indictment. I'll take Seth's way over Frank's way all day everyday.

xyresic · June 5, 2017

To add to @Cr1028's post -

He is a great recruiter but guys that are being mentioned along with him in the other thread like Kiffin and Davis all have large clouds over them. Heck Wilson worked under Lane while Tennessee had a large amount of violations.

My thought is this, you start bending rules to recruit and it becomes a slippery slope. Things like impermissible contact, questionable use of coeds in recruiting, letting in those who don't have the grades or who have commuted violent crimes etc. Before you know it the programs culture can get out of control. You saw this happen at UNC with Davis.

Davis and Kiffin as head coaches have a terrible record for the last decade of leaving programs in worse shape than they started. I do not believe that the way they recruit can be separated from this fact.

Wilson recruited well at LSU but so did the recruiting coordinator before and after him.

He had a great first year at UTSA but in my opinion what he is doing is not going to be solid long term. He is the same guy that coached for Southern Miss, MSU and Tennessee all in a three week span. Coaches will eventually remember being burned by things like this.

I'm not going to give a PowerPoint about what I think about or have heard about Wilson. Instead I choose to focus on repairing and rebuilding a program in a sustainable way.

In five years we can revisit and see how Kiffin, Wilson, and Davis played out for their schools. I'll take my chances with Seth in that bet.

GrandGreen · June 5, 2017

Cheating in recruiting has gone on forever. If anything it has at least become less obvious. If you have valid information that a program is cheating turn them in. There are obviously different levels of cheating. Every program bends the rules to some degree. Paying players or their coaches or family members should be prosecuted, however apparently Alabama has been legally doing that for years by given them bogus jobs with the program.

UTSA kicked NT recruiting' butt last year but so did most every team in the nation.

A little ancient history, Terry Teagle and Vinnie Johnson two very good bb players who Blakeley had committed only to lose them last minute to guess who. Baylor who has been at it forever, found great jobs for family members in Waco. Bill also told the story of driving up to a recruit's very modest home, and seeing a brand new car in the driveway and at that point he didn't even bother to contact him.

Fry used to distribute list of possible recruits, and clearly indicated those that were on the take. NT didn't get any of those.

wardly · June 5, 2017

21 hours ago, xyresic said:

I mentioned that Seth and Co. will need to build trust with the Texas coaches to improve recruiting each year. I am not an apologist, I do think recruiting should be a bit better now although it's still early.

My favorite argument is look at what UTSA has done. Hmm, I wonder how they instantly have become so much more attractive to recruits? I'm sure that all of the whispers from fans and AD employees across several schools that they are now a dirty program can't be true.

I'm sure it is also a coincidence that they hired Bo Davis who got popped by the NCAA. The off the record chatter is that he was paying players then took the fall for the Bama program as a whole.

So yes our recruiting needs to be stepped up, but I don't think comparisons with schools like UTSA that run dirty programs are apples to apples.

Look at Baylor, their recruiting turned on a dime and they really improved - but there is no question now that there was a huge cost to what they did. Briles was another coach that everyone always whispered about. Those whispers turned out to be correct.

I'm sure this post will get negative feedback and heck some people like Ben may not care about the rules - but I do and I'm glad we are attempting to build something with out stepping outside of them.

I don't think its appropriate to accuse USTA of being dirty regarding recruiting based upon whispers. The fact is that their 1st year coach head coach and the 1st year head coach at Texas State just kicked butt in recruiting last year.Also, Fry was not as clean as you may think.

Ryan Munthe · June 5, 2017

UTSA is kicking our butt in recruiting because they're the young upstart.

Harry · June 5, 2017

26 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

UTSA is kicking our butt in recruiting because they're the young upstart.

You have the right to your opinion but respectfully that is a cop-out. It's an excuse. We've been down that road before. Things aren't hard at North Texas.

If your system isn't working or needs to be improved you make adjustments. We all know that we have many, many advantages when compared to other schools in C-USA. All we are asking is that those be utilized.

i think we have one of the best academic universities, facilities, coaching staff, location and growing enrollment. DFW is a great place to live and work after football ends.

I do think the missing ingredient is consistent winning and that will come.

You can take the fan feedback on recruiting as unfounded and unfair criticism or you can realize that winning recruiting helps build excitement in your program and connects you closer to your fan base.

Our fans are realistic. They know we aren't going to win recruiting battles against p5 schools (right now). They do expect to win recruiting battles in C-USA. And why not? We have a great product to sell and should be at the top of this conference. I have no problem with us having high expectations in recruiting. GMG

GrandGreen · June 5, 2017

Excellent response, Harry.

Recruiting is not hocus pocus, it is the life of any program. There are many ways to judge a team's recruiting available. Ratings by multiple services, review of who is recruiting the player and the long range performance of the team. By any measure, NT is not getting it done.

Almost every fan agrees that NT must make significant process to improve. Then there is a divide between those that think that there are inherit obstacles that NT has that other teams don't and those that think there is no reason other than the staff's ability to recruit.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle. However, it really doesn't matter how difficult it is. The fact is that recruiting has to get better for NT to excel.

Littrell has thus far failed at winning head to head recruiting battles with peers. On the plus side, Littrell's first class has actually looked pretty good on the field. I am not sure you can win with a team of "hidden gems" and "steals".

It is obvious that Littrell is going to get the time to show his merit. So it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks of his recruiting. The win-loss record will determine his future.

TreeFiddy · June 5, 2017

The thing that troubles me most so far is that the one position that this offensive staff should be able to recruit is QB and they have been a bit underwhelming so far in terms of being able to pull in a high profile recruit in a head to head battle. I suppose Morris was pretty high profile, but not sure if there were a lot of teams vying for his services. The Texarkana QB, who may turn out to be a nice QB, was not heavily recruited.

At the end of the day ;-) there is absolutely no reason that SL and staff should not be competing, and beating, CUSA peers in head to head battles. If SL can't figure out a way to make it happen, he is likely meet the same fate as those that came before him.

BTG_Fan1 · June 5, 2017

UTSA has a lot going for it compared to UNT, I'm not saying UNT doesn't but UTSA does have somethings that are trending up just like UNT does.

UTSA does not have the history of losing like UNT, and yes they are start up but this is something.

UTSA also, has had kids drafted recently as well, while UNT has not. Yes those kids from UTSA has not done anything compared to the likes of Dunbar, Orr, Robertson. But UNT has not done enough to promote the likes of Orr, Robertson, Dunbar till this past season when they would tweet out about the status of the current UNT players in the NFL. Heck one of our weakest spots this year is LB. UNT has had success with LBs going into the NFL drafted/UDFA in Spencer, Kassell, Orr, Robertson. UNT should be working with these guys to do LB Coaches in TX and even in New Orleans.

Something else that UTSA has is a city nightlife compared to Denton. UTSA has a lot more things to do than Denton. Yes, Denton is near Dallas/Fort Worth, but still you have to drive 30-45 minutes to do somethings.

UTSA also has something that a lot of programs don't have that is a domed-stadium, and yes this isn't something major but is still something. Having an IPF at UNT is something that will be interesting to see how much it can help us with recruits. Yes the alamodome is nothing fancy but its something that kids don't get to play in often and something new to them even if it old.

UTSA also, is the 2nd largest sports team in its market in SA behind the Spurs. UNT has to fight with TCU/SMU to go along with the Rangers, Stars, Mavs, and Cowboys. Also, Denton again is hurt by its location because its 30-45 minutes away from Dallas/Fort Worth with not many other things to do for most sports fans. UTSA you can go to downtown see a game at the Alamodome, then take a 5-10-15 minute walk to the riverwalk and eat.

UNT is ahead in terms of education along with having a vast number of alumni in the DFW compared to the UTSA which is hurt by it being a start up.

Yes, recruiting has to get better but these are some of the things that just UTSA has over UNT that kids may like. We have to remember kids that grow up in the DFW often want to get out of the DFW area for school because they were raised here (just like most of us wanted out of DFW) and if you have options you go else where.

UNT can turn it around by just winning and getting to bowl games. If that means getting to 6-8 wins a season that will change how HS coaches view the program. Also, this staff has seemed very open and willing to meet with HS programs and being more proactive/improving. Another thing also about this Air-Raid scheme is that its does not always need flashy/high level recruits.Yes that improves the output but the reason that the spread is something that is vastly used now is because it spreads the field and forces teams to cover more area.

The youth and the energy of this staff is something that is appealing and was much needed after the Mac Era. SL has shown major improvements at his previous stops in the 2nd year, and if that happens that will be huge for an offense that was stagnate and not effective last year.

Cr1028 · June 5, 2017

Well said @BTG_Fan1. Not only are we battling our conference mates but also how we are perceived by recruits and their advisors. We've been bad for pretty much all of those people's lives.

Seth Littrell is recruiting against Skip Holtz and Frank Wilson, but also the ghosts of Todd Dodge and Dan McCarney.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Cr1028
Really bad grammar mistake

BTG_Fan1 · June 5, 2017

2 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Well said @BTG_Fan1. Not only out we battling our conference mates but also how we are perceived by recruits and their advisors. We've been bad for pretty much all of those people's lives.

Seth Littrell is not only recruiting against Skip Holtz and Frank Wilson, but also the ghosts of Todd Dodge and Dan McCarney.

Its very sad and very true. Another thing that hurts is that some of the degrees that recruits want, we don't offer. UNT just started up a Sports Management program and is looking to start up an Athletic Admin major as well.

I also think that most recruits pass their choice of school mostly on the sports program they will be playing in as well, and a few select ones pick a school based on education then sports. UNT has to find ways to promote guys like Dunbar and Robertson. It really hurt when Orr had to retire because he could have been a great asset for UNT.