UNT QB Situation post spring

[GMG24]

18 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Here's the problem with Fine at QB:

-We ran an "Air Raid" offense last year, but had the same amount of TD passes thrown during the regular season as the season before with McCarney and his cavalcade of quarterbacks who did not run an "Air Raid" offense.
-The QB not named Fine in 2016 threw multiple TDs in every game he started, leaving many to wonder what might have been had Littrell/Harrell not panicked after one game.

I think the same of Fine as I did with Dodge's kid:  good athlete, not big enough to play QB at this level.  And, because of that, what should have been a surprise to no one, Fine - like Dodge's kid - ended up injured by season's end.

I'll say the same thing about Fine as I did about Riley Dodge back then, it's perfectly fine and acceptable to be Wes Welker or Julian Edelman.  Riley had the talent to do it, but his dad and him were hell bent of having him play QB. 

If Littrell/Harrell are as hell bent on Fine staying at QB, they are making the same mistake. 

Fine is a good athlete and will adapt well to slot receiver and returning punts and kickoffs, same as Welker and Edelman.  Otherwise, he'll end up like Riley - damaged goods long before his career is over. 

In short, they should put Fine in a position to use his open field elusiveness, not be the target of linemen who outweigh him by at least double down after down.  Doing so would free Littrell/Harrell up to start a QB with a stronger arm, and probably a more accurate one.  It will be a win-win if they do it sooner rather than later.  

Everything else is just akin to arguing about the ingredients of corn chips. 

Hmmm.  Gee, I don't know what's more dumb:  looking at an "Air Raid" offense that doesn't produce more TD passes in the regular season than McCarney's offense and being in denial about it or admitting that it's a problem and saying so. 

An "Air Raid" offense doesn't have to throw it 500 times, its a scheme.  Littrell has ran the ball everywhere he's been.  Jeffrey Wilson was our 5th leading receiver last year to put into perspective just how depleted our roster was of talent at WR.  

The roster was a joke last year, they're getting closer to being "Full" on ships.  I guess we can agree to disagree, but Mason Fine when given adequate time OR a decent threat of a run game (I have not checked box scores from last years games, but I'd be willing to bet we won/he had solid games when we rushed for over 150 and lost if we didn't) is as good a QB as we have had since I've been watching UNT games.  

He should be coming off a RS season, there is a reason 98% of incoming freshman QB's red-shirt.  They simply aren't ready.  You saw that with Fine, unfortunately in live game situations.  He hasn't even finished his Freshman campaign and some of yall are ready to get rid of him and move on to the next true freshman QB.  Mind blowing. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by GMG24

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

5 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

An "Air Raid" offense doesn't have to throw it 500 times, its a scheme.  Littrell has ran the ball everywhere he's been.  Jeffrey Wilson was our 5th leading receiver last year to put into perspective just how depleted our roster was of talent at WR.  The roster was a joke last year, they're getting closer to being "Full" on ships, Guess we can agree to disagree, but Mason Fine when given adequate time OR a decent threat of a run game is as good a QB as we have had since I've been watching UNT games.  He should be coming off a RS season, there is a reason 98% of incoming freshman QB's red-shirt.  They simply aren't ready.  You saw that with Fine, unfortunately in live game situations.  He hasn't even finished his Freshman campaign and some of yall are ready to get rid of him and move on to the next true freshman QB.  Mind blowing. 

Littrell had to rely on Wilson because the passing game rarely clicked on a consistent basis.  We are fortunate that Wilson was already on the roster.  He had as many rushing TDs in the regular season as the team had TD passes.

Without the home run threat of Wilson in 2016, we were not close to going to a bowl game. 
-The 75 yard run versus Rice that put us in the lead for the first time; 3 TDs in the game.
-The 72 yard run that broke the tie with Marshall; 2 TDs in that game
-The 41 run that broke open the regular season Army win on the way to 3 second half TDs

In fact, all of those runs were second half TDs that provided us the spark we needed when the offense was bogged down...and, yet the coaches kept sending Fine out there.

I'm not interested in getting Fine up to speed when a more talented QB is on the roster.  Fine has a talent in open spaces, but he's not big enough to take the hits QBs take even in  G5 conferences. And, Wilson is our best offensive player, hands down.

What I want is for the this coaching staff to do what its predecessors didn't:  make the correct call at QB, and put the rest of the pieces together in a way that keeps opposing defense on their heels. 

To me, a more accurate, stronger armed QB with the threats of Wilson and a Welker-like slot in Fine are more dangerous than a Fine at QB completing less than 60% of his passes in an "Air Raid" offense and having to wait for Wilson to break the games open in the second half. 

In the end, we both want the same thing:  UNT winning.  We just have a different point of view about how we get there on the offensive side of the ball.  We both believe Fine is a good athlete.  You believe he contributes more at QB; I believe he could contribute more at slot and in the return game.

Time will tell.

Go Mean Green!

[Ben Gooding]

7 hours ago, GMG24 said:

Has nothing to do with any coaching clinic, has everything to do with what I see with my eyes.  I think Pearson will eventually be the best QB on the roster, he isn't better than Fine right now, and there is no way in hell I'd let Shanbour be a qb vs D1 competition.  IMO It's 1.Fine 1a. Pearson.  I am sure you are aware of this but one scrimmage doesn't dictate how much or how little improvement one has made.  Mason needs to work on getting the ball out of his hands quicker, and understanding what the coverages are giving him.  You are right everyone is entitled to their opinions even if they are awful ones.  

P.S. You can list off all sorts of buzzwords you have heard before and make it seem like you know what you're talking about, but it doesn't change the fact you have no idea what you are seeing or talking about.  The OL is atrocious all around, from where I was sitting Fine was pressured and blitzed almost double Shanbour and Pearson.  Which for obvious reasons is smart, don't give your true freshman (Early grad) kid too much to take in at once.  He had success facing a vanilla stack defense.  Mason was forced to make quick decisions and read blitzes, he made some really good decisions as well as several really bad.  Yes we have a long way to go, but you may want to take a step back and remember one thing, Mason Fine is 1 year removed from playing 2a high school football.  Shanbour was a walk on, and Pearson just early graduated.  Do I think any of these guys are the next coming of UNT's version of the QB Savior?  No, but I know Mason is the best option right now, and Pearson (Who needs to RS) will challenge him next season. 

 

Oh, when you can't run the ball it also makes throwing it that much harder just FYI. 

Uh huh. Those aren't buzzwords. That is Mason Fine's current quarterbacking ability.

Oh, and I'm sorry...I better get a couple years of JV football paired with 1 year of coaching linebackers in HS to really know what I'm talking about. I mean his 261 attempts paired with 6 touchdowns doesn't already tell the story. And I don't give a damn if he was a freshman last year or not. That ratio alone has to be dead last in the country, backups included. You can call it philosophical or a strategic change once in the redone. I call it hanging on to the ball too long, panicking and running downfield, getting sacked due to never throwing in rhythm and hardly EVER hitting a deep ball in rhythm or stride. Never mind his deep ball inaccuracies. So, I don't know what the hell you've been watching "with your own eyes", but apparently not what I have been watching. 

4 hours ago, GMG24 said:

An "Air Raid" offense doesn't have to throw it 500 times, its a scheme.  Littrell has ran the ball everywhere he's been.  Jeffrey Wilson was our 5th leading receiver last year to put into perspective just how depleted our roster was of talent at WR.  

The roster was a joke last year, they're getting closer to being "Full" on ships.  I guess we can agree to disagree, but Mason Fine when given adequate time OR a decent threat of a run game (I have not checked box scores from last years games, but I'd be willing to bet we won/he had solid games when we rushed for over 150 and lost if we didn't) is as good a QB as we have had since I've been watching UNT games.  

He should be coming off a RS season, there is a reason 98% of incoming freshman QB's red-shirt.  They simply aren't ready.  You saw that with Fine, unfortunately in live game situations.  He hasn't even finished his Freshman campaign and some of yall are ready to get rid of him and move on to the next true freshman QB.  Mind blowing. 

Well, certainly you do know that running backs in the air raid is a big deal in the passing game. That has nothing to do with a depleted roster. That has everything to do with it being a part of what they are actually trying to do. He'll be top 3-5 receiver this year too. And Nic Smith/Tucker will be top 3-5 the year after. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[MGNation92]

We need to start a gofundme for a banner to be flown over practice to start the #ShanbourShouldStart campaign. Any takers?

[BTG_Fan1]

9 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I don't know what many of you were/are expecting of Mason Fine, but he's still a True Freshman.   He needs to improve, no doubt, but I bet he will.    I think most of you agree... however, in reading many of your comments, it's sounding like you're expecting the improvement to be a jump from true freshman to all-conference over the span of 4 months.   That's not feasible.  

Pearson not ready.  Needs a redshirt.
Shanbour has never been ready.
We have no idea what we have in Izzy, and OHara is starting to look like another JUCO bust.

Time to get back behind Fine.   And if he loses the starting job during the Fall, then so be it.

No one should expect him to be an all conference player, but people should expect him to have progressed even a little. Fine has not progressed really at all, if any.

Fine still doesn't throw the ball away when he should just take the in-completion instead of trying to make something out of nothing. Fine still under-throws WRs routinely, and that hurts this offense A LOT. 

No one has unsupported Fine, everyone here hopes that he becomes somethings special. But the kid has not progressed on the field from what we have seen. 

9 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

This is my biggest concern with Mason. On one play he will do something that makes you sit back and say "wow", and then a couple of plays do something that makes you say "what the hell"!

So I wonder if he can make enough "positive" plays to offset the "negative" plays? 

Last year Fine seemed to have a lot more negative plays, but they were covered up by Wilson breaking it over/ taken over a game or the defense coming up big. 

6 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Here's the problem with Fine at QB:

-We ran an "Air Raid" offense last year, but had the same amount of TD passes thrown during the regular season as the season before with McCarney and his cavalcade of quarterbacks who did not run an "Air Raid" offense.
-The QB not named Fine in 2016 threw multiple TDs in every game he started, leaving many to wonder what might have been had Littrell/Harrell not panicked after one game.

If Littrell/Harrell are as hell bent on Fine staying at QB, they are making the same mistake. 

In short, they should put Fine in a position to use his open field elusiveness, not be the target of linemen who outweigh him by at least double down after down.  Doing so would free Littrell/Harrell up to start a QB with a stronger arm, and probably a more accurate one.  It will be a win-win if they do it sooner rather than later.  

Hmmm.  Gee, I don't know what's more dumb:  looking at an "Air Raid" offense that doesn't produce more TD passes in the regular season than McCarney's offense and being in denial about it or admitting that it's a problem and saying so. 

SL said that he wanted to rotate his QBs at times if they weren't playing well or to even give them "mental breaks' he said in one of his pressers. He never took out Fine and I have no idea why. He had a quick leash for Morris, and Morris played well when given his chances. Yes he throw some INTs vs SMU, but how many were on him? Everyone vs SMU had a bad game. 

Honestly, I just wish SL would have said that he stuck with Fine because he wanted to gain him experience, instead of not saying anything. Morris settled down once he got to play. He throw 2 INTs in 3 games to end the year (SM, UTEP, Army) and the Army INT was because the WR slipped. We can only image what could have been if they had stuck with Morris. 

6 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Littrell had to rely on Wilson because the passing game rarely clicked on a consistent basis.  We are fortunate that Wilson was already on the roster.  He had as many rushing TDs in the regular season as the team had TD passes.

Without the home run threat of Wilson in 2016, we were not close to going to a bowl game. 
-The 75 yard run versus Rice that put us in the lead for the first time; 3 TDs in the game.
-The 72 yard run that broke the tie with Marshall; 2 TDs in that game
-The 41 run that broke open the regular season Army win on the way to 3 second half TDs

In fact, all of those runs were second half TDs that provided us the spark we needed when the offense was bogged down...and, yet the coaches kept sending Fine out there.

I'm not interested in getting Fine up to speed when a more talented QB is on the roster.  Fine has a talent in open spaces, but he's not big enough to take the hits QBs take even in  G5 conferences. And, Wilson is our best offensive player, hands down.

What I want is for the this coaching staff to do what its predecessors didn't:  make the correct call at QB, and put the rest of the pieces together in a way that keeps opposing defense on their heels. 

To me, a more accurate, stronger armed QB with the threats of Wilson and a Welker-like slot in Fine are more dangerous than a Fine at QB completing less than 60% of his passes in an "Air Raid" offense and having to wait for Wilson to break the games open in the second half. 

In the end, we both want the same thing:  UNT winning.  We just have a different point of view about how we get there on the offensive side of the ball.  We both believe Fine is a good athlete.  You believe he contributes more at QB; I believe he could contribute more at slot and in the return game.

Time will tell.

Go Mean Green!

This is so true. It was pound away with Wilson and hope it could open up Fine for the pass every once and awhile. 

With that being said, the bold parts are 100% true and we all show it first hand. When this offense could complete passes and get into a flow of things, this offense was able to move the ball and score. Even in garbage time it was true vs MTSU, UTSA, LAT, heck even morris did it in the HoD Bowl and vs Southern Miss at times. 

When the QBs are able to place the ball and complete passes or the WRs don't drop it, it lets this offense go up tempo. Pearson is the only one to show he can complete over 60% of his passes and he did at 72% compared to Fine and Quinn in the 50s. Pearson also showed the can complete the deep pass and hit his man in stride, and did not get phased by the pressure either by keeping his eyes down field or even waiting till the last possible second to get the ball out on screen plays. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pearson was the real winner at the QB spot at the Spring game. Quinn and Fine can show off and look good in practice but that didn't translate to the scrimmage. Yes, Quinn had a solid 2nd half, but that was after a bad 1st half so we could say he broke even, and Fine tossed another INT and didn't seem to move the offense. 

We can say that Pearson needs to be RS, but honestly he could not do much worse than Fine did last year. How much of Fines stats came in garbage time, and how many lucky breaks did Fine get? He got a few vs Army in terms of dropped INTs, and the lucky TD. 

 

[TreeFiddy]

Pearson completed 13 of 18 (72%), Shanbour completed 13 of 19 (68%), and Fine was 14 of 25 (56%).

[GMG24]

6 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Uh huh. Those aren't buzzwords. That is Mason Fine's current quarterbacking ability.

Oh, and I'm sorry...I better get a couple years of JV football paired with 1 year of coaching linebackers in HS to really know what I'm talking about. I mean his 261 attempts paired with 6 touchdowns doesn't already tell the story. And I don't give a damn if he was a freshman last year or not. That ratio alone has to be dead last in the country, backups included. You can call it philosophical or a strategic change once in the redone. I call it hanging on to the ball too long, panicking and running downfield, getting sacked due to never throwing in rhythm and hardly EVER hitting a deep ball in rhythm or stride. Never mind his deep ball inaccuracies. So, I don't know what the hell you've been watching "with your own eyes", but apparently not what I have been watching. 

Well, certainly you do know that running backs in the air raid is a big deal in the passing game. That has nothing to do with a depleted roster. That has everything to do with it being a part of what they are actually trying to do. He'll be top 3-5 receiver this year too. And Nic Smith/Tucker will be top 3-5 the year after. 

😂 whatever makes you feel better.  You can take all the digs at me you'd like but you don't know what you're talking about.  FYI I've been coaching for 8 years at both MS/HS level so yeah I feel like I've seen enough football and been around it enough to have a pretty informed opinion.  You, just like to run your mouth and _____ just to hear yourself do it.  In 3 years we will see who is right.  I never said Fine was perfect, just that he's easily the best option we have.  You put Pearson in there you watch him do the same thing Fine did last year.  He is still a true freshman just to remind you again.  Find me 5 other true freshman QBs in FBS football last 5 years who came in and started as a freshman and had good numbers.  I also never said Fine didn't have things to work on, refer to my previous post where I said what I thought he needed to work on.  You do remember we finished the year with a walk on WR, the top 3 WR being kicked off team, and a kid who got moved to slot his senior year right?

 

Sure some of his issues were his, but asking a freshman walk on (WR) to be at the same level of a scholarship kid is pretty silly.  There were things outside of his control that affected his game, and some within his control that he has to improve.  If you led the nation in being sacked, and pressured I bet you'd get happy feet too.  Usually the other teams DL and LB aren't trying to play patty cake back there. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by GMG24

[Aldo]

21 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Here's the problem with Fine at QB:

-We ran an "Air Raid" offense last year, but had the same amount of TD passes thrown during the regular season as the season before with McCarney and his cavalcade of quarterbacks who did not run an "Air Raid" offense.

Just a clarification. Both 2016 and 2015 saw 33 RZ scores, and 10 were pass TDs in 2016 and 7 were pass TDs in 2015.

As has been said, Air Raid is a scheme. You work your best player. That's Wilson.

______________________________________________________

Fine was a below-average passer when compared all freshman 4 year starters the past 10 seasons (59 total).

Was it by much? No. Does someone with his stats improve the next year? The numbers say yes he will improve to at least average.

Is Fine a great QB? No. Will he be? No. But he's what we got - and he's more than what we've had in the last few seasons as a freshman - so let's look for something else to overreact about. 

[Ben Gooding]

10 hours ago, GMG24 said:

😂 whatever makes you feel better.  You can take all the digs at me you'd like but you don't know what you're talking about.  FYI I've been coaching for 8 years at both MS/HS level so yeah I feel like I've seen enough football and been around it enough to have a pretty informed opinion.  You, just like to run your mouth and _____ just to hear yourself do it.  In 3 years we will see who is right.  I never said Fine was perfect, just that he's easily the best option we have.  You put Pearson in there you watch him do the same thing Fine did last year.  He is still a true freshman just to remind you again.  Find me 5 other true freshman QBs in FBS football last 5 years who came in and started as a freshman and had good numbers.  I also never said Fine didn't have things to work on, refer to my previous post where I said what I thought he needed to work on.  You do remember we finished the year with a walk on WR, the top 3 WR being kicked off team, and a kid who got moved to slot his senior year right?

 

Sure some of his issues were his, but asking a freshman walk on (WR) to be at the same level of a scholarship kid is pretty silly.  There were things outside of his control that affected his game, and some within his control that he has to improve.  If you led the nation in being sacked, and pressured I bet you'd get happy feet too.  Usually the other teams DL and LB aren't trying to play patty cake back there. 

A lot of times, that has been on him. We don't have a great OL, and that is apparent. They struggle in run block just as well as they do pass pro. But he could alleviate the amount of sacks and pressures by timely throwing the ball. He doesn't do that. And that is a huge problem of his. From the looks of the Spring game, it hasn't improved. That is all I'm saying. Beat your head against the wall all you want to in the defense of this staff, because that is exactly what you're doing. It doesn't change his deficiencies. They're still there just as present as they were in the regular season. Fine needs to be moved to slot or bench and let capable QB's at this level such as Isladore and Pearson battle it out in the Fall. But hey, if I'm wrong and Fine leads us to a West crown or even competing for it...I'll gladly stfu. 

[Aldo]

2 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

capable QB's at this level such as Isladore and Pearson

You don't think you're jumping the gun here?

Edited April 12, 2017 by Aldo

[Ben Gooding]

2 minutes ago, Aldo said:

Just a clarification. Both 2016 and 2015 saw 33 RZ scores, and 10 were pass TDs in 2016 and 7 were pass TDs in 2015.

As has been said, Air Raid is a scheme. You work your best player. That's Wilson.

______________________________________________________

Fine was a below-average passer when compared all freshman 4 year starters the past 10 seasons (59 total).

Was it by much? No. Does someone with his stats improve the next year? The numbers say yes he will improve to at least average.

Is Fine a great QB? No. Will he be? No. But he's what we got - and he's more than what we've had in the last few seasons as a freshman - so let's look for something else to overreact about. 

I don't think anyone is overreacting. I just think that Fine has a ceiling, and it's kind of low. Pearson showed people paying attention that he could be capable in year 1 (much like Fine was last year, but a little better), but with a much higher ceiling. Isladore has the talent to put himself in the mix and has a stronger arm than Fine. Fine's ceiling is slightly below average or right at average D1 QB. Pearson could be special. Isladore is an unknown, but could be decent himself. And to be honest, I think Isladore will be starting be week 3 or 4 for the sake of saving Pearsons RS. JMO.  

4 minutes ago, Aldo said:

You don't think you're jumping the gun here?

Not really. I think Pearson/Isladore could go for 1500 and a 1/1...LIke Fine did last year. I think they're both better. Littrell talks about playing the best player at that position regardless of classification. Well...

[GMG24]

12 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

A lot of times, that has been on him. We don't have a great OL, and that is apparent. They struggle in run block just as well as they do pass pro. But he could alleviate the amount of sacks and pressures by timely throwing the ball. He doesn't do that. And that is a huge problem of his. From the looks of the Spring game, it hasn't improved. That is all I'm saying. Beat your head against the wall all you want to in the defense of this staff, because that is exactly what you're doing. It doesn't change his deficiencies. They're still there just as present as they were in the regular season. Fine needs to be moved to slot or bench and let capable QB's at this level such as Isladore and Pearson battle it out in the Fall. But hey, if I'm wrong and Fine leads us to a West crown or even competing for it...I'll gladly stfu. 

Where did I defend the staff in anyway?  I was defending Fine, a true freshman QB who made true freshman mistakes.  Who had a subpar OL, and subpar WR's to work with. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by GMG24

[Aldo]

1 minute ago, Ben Gooding said:

Pearson could be special. Isladore is an unknown, but could be decent himself.

Calling for the benching of the starting QB for what "could be" is an overreaction. It has huge consequences. We have no idea what potential they have. 

Spring game says zero, and the fact that there's no starter means none of those dudes have stepped up. Have to let Fall practice play out.

Do we want to go through growing pains again? Weren't we just talking about coaches should have left Morris in?

The development of quarterbacks isn't easy, and throwing them into the fire slows it down instead of speeding it up as the young guns don't have time to learn the position inseason. Because they don't have the chance to fix mechanical mistakes and bad tendencies, they keep making those mistakes early on. I want to see what Pearson can do, but he needs more polish before throwing him out there. There needs to be more stability at the position.

Obviously it's all on Fine to keep it stable, but to bench because his ceiling is low and not because one of the other guys has taken the position from him is not the way to succeed.

[TreeFiddy]

No doubt that Fine needs to take some speed reading classes over the summer.  Harrell even admitted that he needs to improve the speed of his reads/progressions, which is getting him in trouble with the pass rush.  The game should slow down quite a bit for him with a year under his belt.  It better, because it sounds like Littrell wants to expand the play book.  We will see in a few months.

Oh, and it's Isadore.  Stop trying to hang an extra L on him before he steps on the field. 

[Ben Gooding]

4 minutes ago, Aldo said:

Calling for the benching of the starting QB for what "could be" is an overreaction. It has huge consequences. We have no idea what potential they have. 

Spring game says zero, and the fact that there's no starter means none of those dudes have stepped up. Have to let Fall practice play out.

Do we want to go through growing pains again? Weren't we just talking about coaches should have left Morris in?

The development of quarterbacks isn't easy, and throwing them into the fire slows it down instead of speeding it up as the young guns don't have time to learn the position inseason. Because they don't have the chance to fix mechanical mistakes and bad tendencies, they keep making those mistakes early on. I want to see what Pearson can do, but he needs more polish before throwing him out there. There needs to be more stability at the position.

Obviously it's all on Fine to keep it stable, but to bench because his ceiling is low and not because one of the other guys has taken the position from him is not the way to succeed.

I agree 100% with this. IF it is earned in the Fall there should be no hesitation to start Isadore (No L, My bad) or Pearson. If Fine clearly separates himself from those 2 in the Fall then he should get the nod. But let's all be real with each other...Pearson or Isadore will be starting one way or another anyway. Fine's physique doesn't fit his playing style. He'll get injured again. A 5'10" 170lb QB that holds on to the ball far too long is a horrible mix. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

13 minutes ago, TreeFiddy said:

No doubt that Fine needs to take some speed reading classes over the summer.  Harrell even admitted that he needs to improve the speed of his reads/progressions, which is getting him in trouble with the pass rush.  The game should slow down quite a bit for him with a year under his belt.  It better, because it sounds like Littrell wants to expand the play book.  We will see in a few months.

Oh, and it's Isadore.  Stop trying to hang an extra L on him before he steps on the field. 

And apparently this is tougher when English, Young & Flushce are coming at you (Fine), instead of Moore, Combes & Ozougwu (Pearson).

[BTG_Fan1]

15 hours ago, TreeFiddy said:

Pearson completed 13 of 18 (72%), Shanbour completed 13 of 19 (68%), and Fine was 14 of 25 (56%).

That stat line i saw had Quinn in the 50% range, but it must have been earlier in the game or something. With that being said, i'm glad that Quinn has completing passes at that high of a %. That is needed in this offense.

3 hours ago, Aldo said:

Calling for the benching of the starting QB for what "could be" is an overreaction. It has huge consequences. We have no idea what potential they have. 

Spring game says zero, and the fact that there's no starter means none of those dudes have stepped up. Have to let Fall practice play out.

Do we want to go through growing pains again? Weren't we just talking about coaches should have left Morris in?

The development of quarterbacks isn't easy, and throwing them into the fire slows it down instead of speeding it up as the young guns don't have time to learn the position inseason. Because they don't have the chance to fix mechanical mistakes and bad tendencies, they keep making those mistakes early on. I want to see what Pearson can do, but he needs more polish before throwing him out there. There needs to be more stability at the position.

Obviously it's all on Fine to keep it stable, but to bench because his ceiling is low and not because one of the other guys has taken the position from him is not the way to succeed.

They benched Morris in an Over-Reaction LOL.. he had 3 INTs vs SMU and 2 of them were on the WRs not on Morris. The game does count for something, that is why they do it. It puts these guys into a "semi-game" environment instead of just out on the practice field. 

About the growing pains, Fine didn't do much in terms of growing. Yes he played solid at times, but at other times he was unable to do anything. I've brought this up since the UTSA game, and people are talking about it now but Fine is not and has not progressed. He takes to many sacks and he just wasn't a great passer. 

I do agree that it's ideal to RS a QB. That is why I think the staff has to RS Pearson, even if he makes it difficult. But they need to figure it out, last year was an evaluation year.. The staff got to see where these guys were at and now they have not started to bring in their own guys. GH and SL have to find out if Quinn, Fine, Izzy or O'hara are the guys or if they even in consideration for anything besides a practice arm. 
 

This team could and may have some set backs as well. This OL is about to get an injection of Freshman... People are high on Newman and Morse. We have to be prepared for  some of these young OL getting playing time as well.

3 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

And apparently this is tougher when English, Young & Flushce are coming at you (Fine), instead of Moore, Combes & Ozougwu (Pearson).

We can say that Pearson didn't go up against a solid pass-rush, but Pearson can only go up against who they put him out against. Pearson was still going up against solid guys on defense in Minor, Garner, heck even Jenks and Brooks at CB.... 

The problem with Fine is that he has regressed and it started when we were at Army. Yes Fine has had a few solid drives but that was in garbage time mostly. When Fine is willing to throw the ball out of bounds for 2nd and 10 instead of 2nd and 18, and when Fine shows he can hit a WR on an out route and not short it then we he will be start showing some progress. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by BTG_Fan1

[Aldo]

• Nearly 30% of Mason Fine's pass attempts went for first downs.
• McNulty and D Smith never surpassed 21% in 2015. Morris was at 25%.

Also the Air Raid rhetoric

• 2016: 121 out of 240 first downs were due to passes vs 94 runs
• 2015: 83 out of 224 first downs were due to passes vs 125 runs

Let's stop using 2015 as some kind of benchmark/comparison. Have to see how 2017 compares to 2016.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Aldo

[MeanGreen_MBA]

28 minutes ago, Aldo said:

• Nearly 30% of Mason Fine's pass attempts went for first downs.
• McNulty and D Smith never surpassed 21% in 2015. Morris was at 25%.

Also the Air Raid rhetoric

• 2016: 121 out of 240 first downs were due to passes vs 94 runs
• 2015: 83 out of 224 first downs were due to passes vs 125 runs

Let's stop using 2015 as some kind of benchmark/comparison. Have to see how 2017 compares to 2016.

nice with the numbers here.....  Let's let the coaches decide who plays...we know nothing....

[97and03]

Why do people still argue with Ben Gooding?

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

8 hours ago, Aldo said:

Just a clarification. Both 2016 and 2015 saw 33 RZ scores, and 10 were pass TDs in 2016 and 7 were pass TDs in 2015.

As has been said, Air Raid is a scheme. You work your best player. That's Wilson.

______________________________________________________

Fine was a below-average passer when compared all freshman 4 year starters the past 10 seasons (59 total).

Was it by much? No. Does someone with his stats improve the next year? The numbers say yes he will improve to at least average.

Is Fine a great QB? No. Will he be? No. But he's what we got - and he's more than what we've had in the last few seasons as a freshman - so let's look for something else to overreact about. 

Not overreacting at all.  I simply think that people should not say that we automatically redshirt Pearson, especially if it becomes apparent that Fine isn't making progress,

My deal is getting your best 11 on the field on both sides of the ball.  I think on offense, Fine is one of those best 11; just not as QB.

For the record, I also think he'd be one of the best 11 in both return packages - punt and kickoff.  (And, for what's it worth, I'd bet he'd make a hell of a nickel back if put on the other side of the ball, and be one of the best 11 on defense as well!)  And, again, I always thought the same about Riley Dodge.  Great in the open field; should have put him in positions to take advantage of that instead of forcing him in at QB.

If Fine's still sub-60% completion percentage in this "Air Raid" offense - which when run well completes absolutely ridiculously high completion percentages - and isn't throwing many TD passes, it really is time to makes some moves at QB. 

The coaches thought we "needed" to play Fine after one game last year.  That's water under the bridge now.  I just don't see how they could make a different conclusion if we're not moving the ball effectively at the beginning of the season.  You have to do what's best for the team.

In addition, as stated in every conference realignment thread, time is not our friend.  We need to win and win now.  We can't be wasting two year or three waiting for a QB to get up to speed.  If one isn't working, we've got to let someone else in there to see if he can't make it click better.

[GMG24]

7 hours ago, 97and03 said:

Why do people still argue with Ben Gooding?

Just can't  let uninformed BS go unchecked. 

[97and03]

58 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Just can't  let uninformed BS go unchecked. 

Try harder. 

[Aldo]

16 hours ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

nice with the numbers here.....  Let's let the coaches decide who plays...we know nothing....

Ok.

14 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

For the record, I also think he'd be one of the best 11 in both return packages - punt and kickoff.  (And, for what's it worth, I'd bet he'd make a hell of a nickel back if put on the other side of the ball, and be one of the best 11 on defense as well!)  And, again, I always thought the same about Riley Dodge.  Great in the open field; should have put him in positions to take advantage of that instead of forcing him in at QB.

I'll disagree. His running skills aren't great, besides scrambling. Shanbour and Means are better runners. And special teams and defense? I thought we were saying he couldn't handle the hits?

I think we're all on the same page of "let the best players play", but I'm not sure the incoming QBs have unseated Fine just yet. 

Here's some more interesting stats while I'm at it:

Fine's completion %

• Own 1-40: 60.9%
• 40-40: 58%
• Opp 40-1: 57.5%
• vs Conference: 64%
• vs FBS non-power 5: 63.6%

So how do we decipher this? I think as they march down the field, his and Harrell's rookieness show up as they march closer to the endzone. Against conference foes, he fared well (4 out of 5 complete games vs conference he was above 64%). He slung it a total of 72 times against UTSA and LaTech for around 69% (nice).

Statistically, he had some very good games, and some bad games and one awful game. He played like a roller coaster rookie.

[Aldo]

Moar stats.

Let's look at his YPA . While he had a roller coaster ride, he roller coaster'd upwards. It started leveling out (dotted line is moving average) towards his last few games between 6 and 7 YPA.

Is that good? No that is subpar. Did he get better as the season progressed? Yes. He also showed he can have games above 7 ypa.

He's not world beater, but Pearson and Isadore have to at least be average quarterbacks to beat Fine.

That's hard to come by at North Texas.