UNT QB Situation post spring

MeanGreen_MBA · April 9, 2017

11 hours ago, GMG24 said:

50/50 I felt a majority of defenses "pressures" or QB sacks came on stunts and blitzes. At the same time you HAVE to be able to pick those up as an OL/RB pass pro. Must communicate and get quicker feet/better hand placement. It looked like our DL/LB pass rushing technique was superior to our OL's.

A couple of those sacks, we're not sacks. They were touches. Fine had a scramble where he was past the DL and pulling away, and was touched...no sack. There were 2 sacks where the QB threw as he was touched....no sack. Plus the pass was completed

Cerebus · April 9, 2017

44 minutes ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

A couple of those sacks, we're not sacks. They were touches.

Guys slow up when they get close to the red shirt. Most of the touches would have been hard hits at full speed.

As far as "is the DL that good, or the OL that bad?" Well you can't tell. One of the limits of scrimmages and camps. You are just playing against yourself. We'll know when we player other people. However the defense did seem to change pressure at the line, and the offense didn't always see it, and sometimes when they did they didn't change protection correctly.

All stuff that can be worked on with more reps. But as of right now I think the O is a good bit behind where the D is.

BTG_Fan1 · April 9, 2017

12 hours ago, Marty said:

Agree on Bussey. He, Smiley, and Guyton are going to be a formidable receiving corp,

I thought #43 Zack Bishop had a nice game at LB.

Where was Anthony Wyche and Okee Rutherford?

Why didn't Trey Keenan get a framed jersey at halftime?

I know Wyche was in workout clothes but no idea why, and Okee got injured in camp (hammy or knee, I believe).

Speaking of injuries, I noticed TJ limped off with a hammy injury in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of the game, I'm assuming he didn't go back into the game?

12 hours ago, GMG24 said:

50/50 I felt a majority of defenses "pressures" or QB sacks came on stunts and blitzes. At the same time you HAVE to be able to pick those up as an OL/RB pass pro. Must communicate and get quicker feet/better hand placement. It looked like our DL/LB pass rushing technique was superior to our OL's.

I wasn't looking at RBs much and only focused on them when Smith was in, but I would like to hope that the RB picking up blitz's will improve when Wilson is back with his experience.

This is very premature as well, but if the defense continues this into the year... Reff could be gone after the year, the defense and ability to pressure was impressive to me.

11 hours ago, Marty said:

Where is this kid?

I'm assuming that he is a Summer-Grad/ Transfer at Cal-Fullerton.

Hopefully McGehee can come in and be a solid player day 1, no offense to the kid yesterday but he has a very long way to go.

Edited April 9, 2017 by BTG_Fan1

GMG24 · April 9, 2017

10 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

I know Wyche was in workout clothes but no idea why, and Okee got injured in camp (hammy or knee, I believe).

Speaking of injuries, I noticed TJ limped off with a hammy injury in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of the game, I'm assuming he didn't go back into the game?

I wasn't looking at RBs much and only focused on them when Smith was in, but I would like to hope that the RB picking up blitz's will improve when Wilson is back with his experience.

This is very premature as well, but if the defense continues this into the year... Reff could be gone after the year, the defense and ability to pressure was impressive to me.

I'm assuming that he is a Summer-Grad/ Transfer at Cal-Fullerton.

Hopefully McGehee can come in and be a solid player day 1, no offense to the kid yesterday but he has a very long way to go.

We had several offensive players who were banged up and didn't play in spring game. Add in the kids we signed and I think we will be fine. You'll see another year of heavy OL focus bc it's an area of concern. Littrell jumped all over the RBs a few times because of a missed blitz pick up, or assignment. I really think once we add the new pieces in the summer and the surprise or two that we get over the summer.

GMG24 · April 9, 2017

2 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Guys slow up when they get close to the red shirt. Most of the touches would have been hard hits at full speed.

As far as "is the DL that good, or the OL that bad?" Well you can't tell. One of the limits of scrimmages and camps. You are just playing against yourself. We'll know when we player other people. However the defense did seem to change pressure at the line, and the offense didn't always see it, and sometimes when they did they didn't change protection correctly.

All stuff that can be worked on with more reps. But as of right now I think the O is a good bit behind where the D is.

Yep, part of the reason Littrell wanted to go to this defense. You can bring pressure from dang near any part of the field and still have good coverages behind it. It is very tough especially at the college level because you can never tell where that pressure is coming from. I think we will see some very solid defensive games next season, just need to be able to run the ball for 150 a game and our passing game should be just Fine.

MeanGreen_MBA · April 9, 2017

16 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Yep, part of the reason Littrell wanted to go to this defense. You can bring pressure from dang near any part of the field and still have good coverages behind it. It is very tough especially at the college level because you can never tell where that pressure is coming from. I think we will see some very solid defensive games next season, just need to be able to run the ball for 150 a game and our passing game should be just Fine.

I sa what you just did. Will be "Fine"

UNTLifer · April 9, 2017

18 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

Quinn did improve, but the only worry with him is that he is a 1 and done player. Fine, Izzy, and Pearson are here for multiple years.

This is a legit and important question for the staff...

Shanbour has two years left. What has happened to O'Hara? Pearson should be given an RS. This would benefit him the most in the long term. Kid is the QB of the future. I am a big Fine fan but am unsure of how much more upside he has.

Wag Tag · April 9, 2017

If Fine starts has Shan worked himself n as a situational QB? He has some wheels!

Edited April 9, 2017 by Wag Tag

FirefightnRick · April 10, 2017

23 hours ago, Cerebus said:

.....the O is a good bit behind where the D is.

As it ALWAYS should be.

Rick

Ben Gooding · April 10, 2017

On 4/9/2017 at 9:35 AM, Cerebus said:

Guys slow up when they get close to the red shirt. Most of the touches would have been hard hits at full speed.

As far as "is the DL that good, or the OL that bad?" Well you can't tell. One of the limits of scrimmages and camps. You are just playing against yourself. We'll know when we player other people. However the defense did seem to change pressure at the line, and the offense didn't always see it, and sometimes when they did they didn't change protection correctly.

All stuff that can be worked on with more reps. But as of right now I think the O is a good bit behind where the D is.

I'm assuming he was referring to those blow by hand taps with an OL pushing them by 4 or 5 more yards. There were a couple of those that were called sacks that would never be sacks. But I guess our "starting" QB is 170 pounds, so they could actually be sacks against us.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · April 10, 2017

Once Littrell and Harrell pull their heads out of their asses, Pearson will be QB and Fine will be moved to a position better suited for a little guy at the FBS level - slot WR or scatback or something.

I do find it funny that Vito has fallen in love with Fine and basically ignored/avoided reporting about Pearson. But, when the spring game arrived, there was only so long that the truth could be hidden.

Shanbour is as fraudulent as ever as well.

Edited April 10, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

Ben Gooding · April 10, 2017

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Once Littrell and Harrell pull their heads out of their asses, Pearson will be QB and Fine will be moved to a position better suited for a little guy at the FBS level - slot WR or scatback or something.

I do find it funny that Vito has fallen in love with Fine and basically ignored/avoided reporting about Pearson. But, when the spring game arrived, there was only so long that the truth could be hidden.

Shanbour is as fraudulent as ever as well.

I agree with you almost 100%. I don't think Shanbour is a complete fraud. I do think that he is the smartest QB on the roster as far as his football IQ goes. A lot of times coaching staffs naming a starting QB do it in the name of comfort and I assume that is what is going to happen come Fall. To be frank, if I'm Littrell I don't try to RS anyone unless there is absolutely no need for them in the season. He's not at a blue blood program that can stack chips for a rainy day. He needs to put all of his cards on the table and play the one's that are going to help this team win. He kind of did just that with Fine last year, but I think he even knew/knows that Fine really isn't "the" guy. So, it was no sweat off his back to burn that RS. Cade has an opportunity to be the guy so they might be more hesitant to pull that RS, but to me that doesn't make sense. Best case scenario is for Isladore to come in and knock the socks off the staff in the Fall and win the starting job, Fine moved to QB2, and RS Pearson. That is the only legitimate way I see Pearson being a RS candidate. If Isladore doesn't do well in the Fall, Pearson's RS should be ready to come of at any moment.

Cerebus · April 10, 2017

22 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Once Littrell and Harrell pull their heads out of their asses, Pearson will be QB

I am not sure he played against the 1 defense the entire scrimmage. Pearson looked good but it might be little different when English is skating a lineman toward him.

23 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Shanbour is as fraudulent as ever as well.

He looked not good the first half, but he was the best qb the second half. And he played against the 1s most of the time.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · April 10, 2017

1 minute ago, Ben Gooding said:

I agree with you almost 100%. I don't think Shanbour is a complete fraud. I do think that he is the smartest QB on the roster as far as his football IQ goes. A lot of times coaching staffs naming a starting QB do it in the name of comfort and I assume that is what is going to happen come Fall. To be frank, if I'm Littrell I don't try to RS anyone unless there is absolutely no need for them in the season. He's not at a blue blood program that can stack chips for a rainy day. He needs to put all of his cards on the table and play the one's that are going to help this team win. He kind of did just that with Fine last year, but I think he even knew/knows that Fine really isn't "the" guy. So, it was no sweat off his back to burn that RS. Cade has an opportunity to be the guy so they might be more hesitant to pull that RS, but to me that doesn't make sense. Best case scenario is for Isladore to come in and knock the socks off the staff in the Fall and win the starting job, Fine moved to QB2, and RS Pearson. That is the only legitimate way I see Pearson being a RS candidate. If Isladore doesn't do well in the Fall, Pearson's RS should be ready to come of at any moment.

Exactly. If there was no reason to redshirt Fine in 2016, there is no reason to redshirt Pearson in 2017.

We need to win and do so consistently as soon as possible. We don't have the luxury of having guys wait around redshirting if the people in the front of them can't do the job - at all positions.

edcollopy · April 10, 2017

shanbour has the quickest release and a very strong arm. I think he may lack the accuracy that you need to consistently move the chains...especially on crossing routes that require touch. I really like Fine's elusiveness and his deep ball, but he scares the hell out of me on out routes and stop routes. He waits too long and aims the ball into spots that are too dangerous. I really liked Peason's accuracy...looks like he can run a little but nearly as fast as the other 2, but I just haven't seen enough to even make a smart comment on him. The running game will be improved if the QB is a threat to pull it back and run...it was Fine's best attribute last year.

BTG_Fan1 · April 10, 2017

7 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

I agree with you almost 100%. I don't think Shanbour is a complete fraud. I do think that he is the smartest QB on the roster as far as his football IQ goes. A lot of times coaching staffs naming a starting QB do it in the name of comfort and I assume that is what is going to happen come Fall. To be frank, if I'm Littrell I don't try to RS anyone unless there is absolutely no need for them in the season. He's not at a blue blood program that can stack chips for a rainy day. He needs to put all of his cards on the table and play the one's that are going to help this team win. He kind of did just that with Fine last year, but I think he even knew/knows that Fine really isn't "the" guy. So, it was no sweat off his back to burn that RS. Cade has an opportunity to be the guy so they might be more hesitant to pull that RS, but to me that doesn't make sense. Best case scenario is for Isladore to come in and knock the socks off the staff in the Fall and win the starting job, Fine moved to QB2, and RS Pearson. That is the only legitimate way I see Pearson being a RS candidate. If Isladore doesn't do well in the Fall, Pearson's RS should be ready to come of at any moment.

This +1.

Also, I'm hoping that Izzy can come in and be the starter Day 1, the staff not pull him like they did Morris. Give the guy a bit of time to get into the flow of it. The good thing is that we start off with Lamar, and it should be a good way to start off the year in terms of shaking off the rust and building confidence. Fine is a great kid, and we all want to see him have success, but he just hasn't developed. Fine was someone who is a great kid to have on the team, because he will challenge whoever is in front of him. Fine, I think in 1 or 2 years could be the 2nd coming of Quinn.

I'm hoping that this time next year, Izzy has locked up the QB1 spot, but Pearson is pushing him hard for it.

6 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Exactly. If there was no reason to redshirt Fine in 2016, there is no reason to redshirt Pearson in 2017.

We need to win and do so consistently as soon as possible. We don't have the luxury of having guys wait around redshirting if the people in the front of them can't do the job - at all positions.

I think there is a difference between Fine 2016 and Pearson 2017... At this time last year we didn't have any QBs who had any meaningful reps in an NCAA game.

Last year they brought in Morris, Fine, Carson and O'hara, with that being said Morris graduated, and O'hara is still injured.. This year they just brought in Izzy and Pearson. Honestly the combo of Izzy and Pearson is alot more attractive than the 4 from last year.

With that being said, the QB depth char should come down to Fine/Pearson/Izzy. Ideally, I think SL and the staff ideally want to RS Pearson, but he had a solid showing for a Freshman even if it was against the 2nd team defense. The kid has 14 or 15 practices before the spring game, and he came away impressing a lot of people.This offense last year was hindered by incompletions and drops that killed drives and lead to us having to rely on Wilson to much at times, and we saw Quinn and Fine both have completion % around 55, while Pearson was over 70%.

If I'm SL, Its down to Izzy or Pearson starting with Quinn and Fine battling it out for the 2nd QB. Izzy and Pearson both have the size and arm strength. Pearson has shown the accuracy as well. I don't think Izzy can be RS either, so they may hurt Pearson as well.

GMG24 · April 11, 2017

11 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Once Littrell and Harrell pull their heads out of their asses, Pearson will be QB and Fine will be moved to a position better suited for a little guy at the FBS level - slot WR or scatback or something.

I do find it funny that Vito has fallen in love with Fine and basically ignored/avoided reporting about Pearson. But, when the spring game arrived, there was only so long that the truth could be hidden.

Shanbour is as fraudulent as ever as well.

Dumb

10 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

I agree with you almost 100%. I don't think Shanbour is a complete fraud. I do think that he is the smartest QB on the roster as far as his football IQ goes. A lot of times coaching staffs naming a starting QB do it in the name of comfort and I assume that is what is going to happen come Fall. To be frank, if I'm Littrell I don't try to RS anyone unless there is absolutely no need for them in the season. He's not at a blue blood program that can stack chips for a rainy day. He needs to put all of his cards on the table and play the one's that are going to help this team win. He kind of did just that with Fine last year, but I think he even knew/knows that Fine really isn't "the" guy. So, it was no sweat off his back to burn that RS. Cade has an opportunity to be the guy so they might be more hesitant to pull that RS, but to me that doesn't make sense. Best case scenario is for Isladore to come in and knock the socks off the staff in the Fall and win the starting job, Fine moved to QB2, and RS Pearson. That is the only legitimate way I see Pearson being a RS candidate. If Isladore doesn't do well in the Fall, Pearson's RS should be ready to come of at any moment.

And Dumber

TreeFiddy · April 11, 2017

I don't really care who starts, but we need to improve on last year's numbers if we want to have success.

2016 Combined Passing Numbers:
Completions: 261
Attempts: 449
Yards: 2708
Yds/Game: 208.3
Comp %: 58.1
Yds/Att: 6.03
TDs: 15
INTs: 13
Rat: 114.0

Based on the Spring game it did not seem like there was noticeable improvement over last year at this same time.

Ben Gooding · April 11, 2017

1 hour ago, GMG24 said:

Dumb

And Dumber

Well, that's just like, your opinion...man.

Fine didn't just not "light it up", he looked like a bad quarterback. All the negative attributes in a QB that you don't look for in a QB he displayed early and often on Saturday such as happy feet, indecisiveness, inaccurate, nervous, body language of disappointment, standing on the sideline like a statue (particularly after bad plays) etc. etc. etc. His lone wolf little touchdown was a "oh shit" throw off of his back foot that the WR stopped and came back for, and it was wobbling duck of a whole 10 yards (and yes, I am aware of the wind. News flash: All 4 QB's were throwing in the same conditions). I know you're all gungho up on this staff because they gave you a cool experience in their little coaching clinic last summer. That's all fine and dandy, but people are entitled to their opinion and the underlying theme of Saturday is that Fine looked borderline pitiful, and it wasn't as if he was going against a bunch of All Conference studs in our D. And to be completely frank, Fine wasn't any good last year. His development has been unnoticeable, and that to me is the most concerning part of all of this. He will not put this team in a position to win the West, and probably not even compete for it. And if he somehow does, it will be on the back of Jeff Wilson and a hopeful decent defense. But, please, say what you will.

GMG24 · April 11, 2017

8 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Well, that's just like, your opinion...man.

Fine didn't just not "light it up", he looked like a bad quarterback. All the negative attributes in a QB that you don't look for in a QB he displayed early and often on Saturday such as happy feet, indecisiveness, inaccurate, nervous, body language of disappointment, standing on the sideline like a statue (particularly after bad plays) etc. etc. etc. His lone wolf little touchdown was a "oh shit" throw off of his back foot that the WR stopped and came back for, and it was wobbling duck of a whole 10 yards (and yes, I am aware of the wind. News flash: All 4 QB's were throwing in the same conditions). I know you're all gungho up on this staff because they gave you a cool experience in their little coaching clinic last summer. That's all fine and dandy, but people are entitled to their opinion and the underlying theme of Saturday is that Fine looked borderline pitiful, and it wasn't as if he was going against a bunch of All Conference studs in our D. And to be completely frank, Fine wasn't any good last year. His development has been unnoticeable, and that to me is the most concerning part of all of this. He will not put this team in a position to win the West, and probably not even compete for it. And if he somehow does, it will be on the back of Jeff Wilson and a hopeful decent defense. But, please, say what you will.

Has nothing to do with any coaching clinic, has everything to do with what I see with my eyes. I think Pearson will eventually be the best QB on the roster, he isn't better than Fine right now, and there is no way in hell I'd let Shanbour be a qb vs D1 competition. IMO It's 1.Fine 1a. Pearson. I am sure you are aware of this but one scrimmage doesn't dictate how much or how little improvement one has made. Mason needs to work on getting the ball out of his hands quicker, and understanding what the coverages are giving him. You are right everyone is entitled to their opinions even if they are awful ones.

P.S. You can list off all sorts of buzzwords you have heard before and make it seem like you know what you're talking about, but it doesn't change the fact you have no idea what you are seeing or talking about. The OL is atrocious all around, from where I was sitting Fine was pressured and blitzed almost double Shanbour and Pearson. Which for obvious reasons is smart, don't give your true freshman (Early grad) kid too much to take in at once. He had success facing a vanilla stack defense. Mason was forced to make quick decisions and read blitzes, he made some really good decisions as well as several really bad. Yes we have a long way to go, but you may want to take a step back and remember one thing, Mason Fine is 1 year removed from playing 2a high school football. Shanbour was a walk on, and Pearson just early graduated. Do I think any of these guys are the next coming of UNT's version of the QB Savior? No, but I know Mason is the best option right now, and Pearson (Who needs to RS) will challenge him next season.

Oh, when you can't run the ball it also makes throwing it that much harder just FYI.

Edited April 11, 2017 by GMG24

El Paso Eagle · April 11, 2017

15 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Mason was forced to make quick decisions and read blitzes, he made some really good decisions as well as several really bad.

This is my biggest concern with Mason. On one play he will do something that makes you sit back and say "wow", and then a couple of plays do something that makes you say "what the hell"!

So I wonder if he can make enough "positive" plays to offset the "negative" plays?

MeanGreenTexan · April 11, 2017

I don't know what many of you were/are expecting of Mason Fine, but he's still a True Freshman. He needs to improve, no doubt, but I bet he will. I think most of you agree... however, in reading many of your comments, it's sounding like you're expecting the improvement to be a jump from true freshman to all-conference over the span of 4 months. That's not feasible.

Pearson not ready. Needs a redshirt.
Shanbour has never been ready.
We have no idea what we have in Izzy, and OHara is starting to look like another JUCO bust.

Time to get back behind Fine. And if he loses the starting job during the Fall, then so be it.

GMG24 · April 11, 2017

8 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

This is my biggest concern with Mason. On one play he will do something that makes you sit back and say "wow", and then a couple of plays do something that makes you say "what the hell"!

So I wonder if he can make enough "positive" plays to offset the "negative" plays?

I think so, but time will tell. Remember he should be coming off his RS Freshman season where he had time to learn and take things slowly. He didn't have that luxury and is still learning the college game.

Also if you noticed when Fine was at QB, the defense was giving him a 5 man box, which should be a change to run at the LOS. He did just that several times, and they couldn't even get a yard. If you can't run the ball vs a 5 man box you are more or less SOL.

Edited April 11, 2017 by GMG24

UNTLifer · April 11, 2017

1 hour ago, El Paso Eagle said:

This is my biggest concern with Mason. On one play he will do something that makes you sit back and say "wow", and then a couple of plays do something that makes you say "what the hell"!

So I wonder if he can make enough "positive" plays to offset the "negative" plays?

I agree, but IMHO, that is part of being a true soph. basically a year removed from 2A Oklahoma football.

Many of us "older" alums remember the first game Scott Hall stepped on the field against Baylor at Fouts. He's athleticism was obvious, but he made some young mistakes trying to make something happen. I remember thinking the same thing when Fine entered the game against SMU and promptly drove us down the field for a touchdown. The team responded to his energy, but like any youngster, he is also going to make some crazy mistakes that he will hopefully grown out of as he matures.

This article, with comments on each QB from Harrell, is a great review of where each QB stands coming out of the spring.

http://www.meangreensports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/040717aag.html

Fine: “As far as talent goes, his talent levels are very high. He’s a good athlete with an unbelievable arm, has lots of pop and is an accurate passer. Throwing ability is not the issue, we just have to continue to speed up the mental side of it for Mason and he’s gotten quicker, but we can still work on that.”

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · April 11, 2017

Here's the problem with Fine at QB:

-We ran an "Air Raid" offense last year, but had the same amount of TD passes thrown during the regular season as the season before with McCarney and his cavalcade of quarterbacks who did not run an "Air Raid" offense.
-The QB not named Fine in 2016 threw multiple TDs in every game he started, leaving many to wonder what might have been had Littrell/Harrell not panicked after one game.

I think the same of Fine as I did with Dodge's kid: good athlete, not big enough to play QB at this level. And, because of that, what should have been a surprise to no one, Fine - like Dodge's kid - ended up injured by season's end.

I'll say the same thing about Fine as I did about Riley Dodge back then, it's perfectly fine and acceptable to be Wes Welker or Julian Edelman. Riley had the talent to do it, but his dad and him were hell bent of having him play QB.

If Littrell/Harrell are as hell bent on Fine staying at QB, they are making the same mistake.

Fine is a good athlete and will adapt well to slot receiver and returning punts and kickoffs, same as Welker and Edelman. Otherwise, he'll end up like Riley - damaged goods long before his career is over.

In short, they should put Fine in a position to use his open field elusiveness, not be the target of linemen who outweigh him by at least double down after down. Doing so would free Littrell/Harrell up to start a QB with a stronger arm, and probably a more accurate one. It will be a win-win if they do it sooner rather than later.

Everything else is just akin to arguing about the ingredients of corn chips.

12 hours ago, GMG24 said:

Dumb

And Dumber

Hmmm. Gee, I don't know what's more dumb: looking at an "Air Raid" offense that doesn't produce more TD passes in the regular season than McCarney's offense and being in denial about it or admitting that it's a problem and saying so.