Facilities tour by Leadership

Eagle-96 · February 22, 2017

5 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Thank you.

Also, once it's built, it changes nothing competitively - otherwise, every school that already had one would be winning more. There is no evidence of that anywhere. Kansas State owning the Longhorns is a great example.

At the end of the day, the nine to 11 guys on the offensive and defensive line have to stick their hands on the ground and get the play rolling, every play. No amount of practicing indoors changes that. Never has, never will.

There are plenty of airplane hangers - along with indoor facilities already within two hours drive of the UNT campus. They didn't need to fly up to Liberty to look at their version of airplane hanger football field.

We're scraping the bottom of the barrel for football coaches, yet people are getting wood about an indoor football field in a city where inclement weather effect the football team about zero to two times per year!

It will be an IPF for ALL sports not just football. This is not just about the football team practicing. It's about practicing out of the elements for:

softball

golf

soccer

track and field

cross country

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 22, 2017

5 minutes ago, Eagle-96 said:

It will be an IPF for ALL sports not just football. This is not just about the football team practicing. It's about practicing out of the elements for:

softball

golf

soccer

track and field

cross country

I've already responded to your list.

(1) There is not a history at UNT - or anywhere else - of an epidemic of athletes having heat strokes, nor was there ever, and
(2) Facilities can be built for all of those sports without having an airplane hanger football field attached to them, and
(3) The actual need to practice indoors because of the weather in Denton is practically none.

Edited February 22, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

Eagle-96 · February 22, 2017

11 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

You answer your own question: because they haven't been any, it looks as thought the strength staffs, the training staffs, and coaching staffs understand how to keep the players properly hydrated.

Also, it isn't happening "all over the U.S.," nor has it ever happened "all over the U.S." It rarely happens anywhere in U.S., even in the hottest areas of the U.S.

Football players also die and/or are paralyzed actually playing in football games each season. So, do we switch the game to flag?

And, again, any and all of those facilities for coaches and teams can be built without an airplane hanger football field attached to them.

Football is played with helmets and outside; so, your helmet argument makes no sense. Your - and, other posters' - argument is that there is somehow an epidemic of strokes and deaths from athletes practicing outdoors. There isn't. Nor has there ever been.

It is what it is: "We have one, too!" Big deal.

If everyone has one, you are still simply back to where you began: coaches and players.

Hell, lets scrap concussion protocol while were at it. Let's stop doing physicals and any other medical tests for football players. If they die from cardiomyopathy then that's too bad. This ain't ballet you know. Spinal stenosis? Eff 'em. This 'aint tiddly winks.

A study by Andrew J. Grundstein, an associate professor in the department of geography at the University of Georgia, reported that 123 high school football players died of heat-related illnesses between 1960 and 2009.

In fact, from 2005 to 2009, the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research (NCCSIR) in University of North Carolina reported 18 cases in which high school and college athletes suffered fatal exertional heat stroke (EHS).

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) published a study in 2010 that stated heat illness is the leading cause of death and disability among high school athletes. The CDC estimated that it's responsible for an average of more than 9,000 heat illnesses among high school athletes annually.

97and03 · February 22, 2017

Why do you people respond to TFLF? Won't you ever learn?

TreeFiddy · February 22, 2017

11 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Thank you.

Also, once it's built, it changes nothing competitively - otherwise, every school that already had one would be winning more. There is no evidence of that anywhere. Kansas State owning the Longhorns is a great example.

At the end of the day, the nine to 11 guys on the offensive and defensive line have to stick their hands on the ground and get the play rolling, every play. No amount of practicing indoors changes that. Never has, never will.

There are plenty of airplane hangers - along with indoor facilities already within two hours drive of the UNT campus. They didn't need to fly up to Liberty to look at their version of airplane hanger football field.

We're scraping the bottom of the barrel for football coaches, yet people are getting wood about an indoor football field in a city where inclement weather effect the football team about zero to two times per year!

Pretty sure you are just confirming the argument that having inferior facilities cause your program to fall behind.

Note that Texas and TTech have a practice bubble and both of their teams suck: http://newsok.com/article/3579231. Poor TTech doesn't even have a full field, no wonder they can't compete.

Our hands are tied, we must build an IPF.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 22, 2017

UAB, where "indoor" practice field pragmatism meets reality:
http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/uab-is-building-a-unique-indoor-football-practice-facility-without-walls/

"If it's raining, the field is dry. If it's hot, you're under shade," Ingram said. "So what do we need the walls for? At the end of the day, what are we talking about? It doesn't get cold here.

---

UAB will pay $4.7 million for the pavilion instead of about $15 million for a regular indoor facility...

---

Ingram used to be senior associate athletic director at Temple, which has an indoor field that's entirely enclosed. He recalled seeing Owls players often running outside during Philadelphia winters.

---

"It doesn't get that cold in the winter here (in Birmingham)," Ingram said. "If we need to, can we put on a long-sleeve T-shirt? Is it really that hard?"

Eagle-96 · February 22, 2017

6 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I've already responded to your list.

(1) There is not a history at UNT - or anywhere else - of an epidemic of athletes having heat strokes, nor was there ever, and
(2) Facilities can be built for all of those sports without having an airplane hanger football field attached to them, and
(3) The actual need to practice indoors because of the weather in Denton is practically none.

1) ONE is too many.

2) So let's add up the cost of all the facilities for each Olympic sport new, weight rooms, new offices, new academic areas to get them up to par with most high schools in the area and then compare that to the cost of an all-encompassing IPF.

3) Denton averages 77 rainy days per year. That's 77 opportunities for practices to be cancelled or altered. With the IPF you have ZERO. Just so you know, zero is less than 77.

BTG_Fan1 · February 22, 2017

33 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

And, if this really were such an epidemic - it's not - why aren't all football stadiums domed and air conditioned?

Because of the cost... that is why college teams don't do it...

You can make the same argument for why does MLB have domed stadiums and the minors don't...

College Football is about the bells and whistles that you can offer prospects.

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

UAB, where "indoor" practice field pragmatism meets reality:
http://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/uab-is-building-a-unique-indoor-football-practice-facility-without-walls/

"If it's raining, the field is dry. If it's hot, you're under shade," Ingram said. "So what do we need the walls for? At the end of the day, what are we talking about? It doesn't get cold here.

---

UAB will pay $4.7 million for the pavilion instead of about $15 million for a regular indoor facility...

---

Ingram used to be senior associate athletic director at Temple, which has an indoor field that's entirely enclosed. He recalled seeing Owls players often running outside during Philadelphia winters.

---

"It doesn't get that cold in the winter here (in Birmingham)," Ingram said. "If we need to, can we put on a long-sleeve T-shirt? Is it really that hard?"

So you would be okay paying for a pavilion, instead of an IPF that has offices, weight rooms, offices for other sports as well? If you want a pavilion, then you can't complain when we keep bringing in 2* players. UTSA is selling the hell out of them playing in a dome, because of the benefits it has on the players in terms of the physical stress it puts on the body. Yes they will still practice outside in the heat, because we play in the heat, but having an IPF allows them to practice inside when its unbearable. Also, it will save them from using and practicing on Apogee as well, keeping the costs of field repairs and needing to move equipment all the time as well. On top of it being used by other sports as well.

Harry · February 22, 2017

I wonder if they consider using the bubble concept for the indoor facility they use at Texas. Seems like it can keep the costs down but still provide a quality facility. I want to say UT paid about 4-5 million for it but that was a long time ago.

BTG_Fan1 · February 22, 2017

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

I wonder if they consider using the bubble concept for the indoor facility they use at Texas. Seems like it can keep the costs down but still provide a quality facility. I want to say UT paid about 4-5 million for it but that was a long time ago.

It would be great to save, but that is just a temp answer. We save that money now, but down the road we are still going to end up building one most likely. This IPF and offices, will show that we are serious about committing to Athletics. Also, it should lead to another added bonus/ recruiting point for coaches to sale to recruits.

The question is the savings what would you do with the savings? The savings won't be enough to build a new SuperPit(most likely). We could give a big boost to recruiting and coaching budgets, but again we could pay the same as a P5 or more, but coaches will still wanna compete/ coach vs the best because of the doors it opens. EK took the same spot going from UNT to UNC.

We look at Marshall, Miami(OH), Memphis, just to name a few. These are schools that invested and have had successful coaches. SL has been successful in turning us around. Yes, it wasn't a great success because we finished under 500 but we got a bowl game. after being blown out by a D2 school and coming off a 1-11 season with 65 scholarship players. We have to invest into the sports programs if you want to truly become and stay successful.

While keeping the coaching budget filled is nice, a coach can get up and go if they get a better job, the IPF won't get up and leave like coaches. SL seems to have an eye for coaching talent and we saw that this year with 3 P5 jobs and a Perry leaving(mutally) still getting a quality G5 job as well. Keeping SL around will be critical and giving him the resources needed will make it harder for him to leave.

meanrob · February 22, 2017

12 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

It would be great to save, but that is just a temp answer. We save that money now, but down the road we are still going to end up building one most likely. This IPF and offices, will show that we are serious about committing to Athletics. Also, it should lead to another added bonus/ recruiting point for coaches to sale to recruits.

The question is the savings what would you do with the savings? The savings won't be enough to build a new SuperPit(most likely). We could give a big boost to recruiting and coaching budgets, but again we could pay the same as a P5 or more, but coaches will still wanna compete/ coach vs the best because of the doors it opens. EK took the same spot going from UNT to UNC.

We look at Marshall, Miami(OH), Memphis, just to name a few. These are schools that invested and have had successful coaches. SL has been successful in turning us around. Yes, it wasn't a great success because we finished under 500 but we got a bowl game. after being blown out by a D2 school and coming off a 1-11 season with 65 scholarship players. We have to invest into the sports programs if you want to truly become and stay successful.

While keeping the coaching budget filled is nice, a coach can get up and go if they get a better job, the IPF won't get up and leave like coaches. SL seems to have an eye for coaching talent and we saw that this year with 3 P5 jobs and a Perry leaving(mutally) still getting a quality G5 job as well. Keeping SL around will be critical and giving him the resources needed will make it harder for him to leave.

There are so many errors in this I don't know where to start.

You do realize Miami OH has been absolutely horrible at football until their 6-7 record this year. They won 5 games in the previous three years. Haywood had one good year other than that their coaches have been abysmal.

Memphis didn't get better because of facilities, they got better because of Justin Fuente. In the three years before Fuente they won five games and fired two coaches.

Marshall has an IPF. Built in 2015. Finished 3-9 this year. Before they built it they were doing just fine. I'm sure it makes it easier to practice but their great quarterback made it easier to win.

Northern Illinois went 46-10 from 2010-2013. In late 2013 they opened their IPF. The last two years they went 13-13. Maybe it was more that they had a run of great head coaches and quarterbacks than any facility.

And finally, La Tech continues to succeed and beat our brains out in every high profile sport and we have better facilities.

I could care less if we build a gazillion dollar IPF palace but the idea that these facilities produce any kind of cause and effect is utter nonsense. If it did, we'd have a better record than everybody with a worse stadium than Apogee. How's that worked out for us? So please tell me how Texas State out-recruited us. Troy too. As far as I can tell neither have an indoor facility and both have worse stadiums than us and are in a lower conference. Hell ULM was 20 spots higher than us in the recruiting rankings. As far as record and recruiting-wise since Apogee opened we're one of the worst programs in the country. Where's the effect?

SL has been successful in turning us around- You do know he had the same first year record as Mac. I hope to the football gods SL is a great coach but turned us around? Hardly. He's still got a lot to prove. And I would rather do everything financially I could to keep and attract coaches rather than just say "well, they're going to go anyway' and use that money somewhere else.

Coaches win. Coaches recruit. It's a people business, period.

Finally, Portland State is FCS (I-AA)

Cr1028 · February 22, 2017

This is where I, and Jordan Murray, went to high school. I was long graduated before this was ever built but this is what they are practicing in. The Cowboys, Bama, etc, have used these facilities for practice. This is similar to the old Fouts argument, you will have a hell of a time selling a kid on your program when the facilities are worse than where they went to high school. Also, I get being tough and all for two-a-days and thew first day or two of weekly practice but there is no reason to do walk-throughs and shell days in the heat. Have your kids at peak stamina/hydration levels for gameday.

Another thing, peering eyes can see through IPF walls.

MeanGreenDan · February 22, 2017

3 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

List the number of UNT football players - or, players from any other outside sport such as softball, soccer, tennis, or track and field - who have died from heat stroke, either in practice or competition. It's a completely false argument.

What's your magic number for how many deaths we need before it IS justified?

Cr1028 · February 22, 2017

27 minutes ago, meanrob said:

Memphis didn't get better because of facilities, they got better because of Justin Fuente. In the three years before Fuente they won five games and fired two coaches.

Or Paxton Lynch, a 2 star with only offers from Memphis and Florida A&M. Many of you would've lost your mind with the signing of a recruit with such a poor offer list.

27 minutes ago, meanrob said:

SL has been successful in turning us around- You do know he had the same first year record as Mac. I hope to the football gods SL is a great coach but turned us around? Hardly. He's still got a lot to prove. And I would rather do everything financially I could to keep and attract coaches rather than just say "well, they're going to go anyway' and use that money somewhere else.

Coaches win. Coaches recruit. It's a people business, period.

Except that Dodge's team played Clemson 35-10 in his final season which was the biggest point differential of that year. Mac inherited that team.

Littrell inherited a team that was blown out 62-16 against Iowa and then 66-7 at home on homecoming to a FCS school, a level Dodge never played against. The 2015 team eclipsed the 25-point deficit bar 6 times. The 2010 met that 25 point differential mark once but never surpassed it, let alone 6 times.

Also, don't forget, this is not athletic money just laying around. There is a donor that wants to put up a large contribution to build this. If the donor wants to build you something, you listen. You don't say, yea, "No thanks, we'd rather try to build up a large war chest for when we have to fire our 2nd year head coach."

27 minutes ago, meanrob said:

Finally, Portland State is FCS (I-AA)

Which we should NEVER lose to, especially in such a record-breaking way.

meanrob · February 22, 2017

12 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Or Paxton Lynch, a 2 star with only offers from Memphis and Florida A&M. Many of you would've lost your mind with the signing of a recruit with such a poor offer list.

You're making my point. Facilities didn't bring in a 4 star recruit that made a difference. A good coach brought in a diamond in the rough and coached him up.

I'm not saying don't build an IPF. But I am saying while I'm wooing a donor to make a donation to the school I'd remind him that paying coaches makes more of a difference than a fancy locker room. And if that donor wants to contribute to both, even better.

If you want to use the Boise comparison, they went through two successful head coaches who left before they got to Peterson. And they stepped up and paid him and his staff extremely well. If we follow that model, there might be a day when we can keep a coach like that around for a few extra years if we can pay him above and beyond.

Just once before I pass on I want to see us have our Paxton Lynch carving up an SEC defense. How do we make that happen?

You sure it was Florida A&M? He wouldn't be the first "White Tiger" but now I'm curious if that's the case.

Edited February 22, 2017 by meanrob

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 22, 2017

3 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

Because of the cost... that is why college teams don't do it...

You can make the same argument for why does MLB have domed stadiums and the minors don't...

College Football is about the bells and whistles that you can offer prospects.

So you would be okay paying for a pavilion, instead of an IPF that has offices, weight rooms, offices for other sports as well? If you want a pavilion, then you can't complain when we keep bringing in 2* players. UTSA is selling the hell out of them playing in a dome, because of the benefits it has on the players in terms of the physical stress it puts on the body. Yes they will still practice outside in the heat, because we play in the heat, but having an IPF allows them to practice inside when its unbearable. Also, it will save them from using and practicing on Apogee as well, keeping the costs of field repairs and needing to move equipment all the time as well. On top of it being used by other sports as well.

You didn't look at the whole UAB project. The building with the offices, class rooms and weight room is the building right next to pavilion. Which, again, makes sense because you can build athletic offices, weight rooms, and what have you without having to erect an airplane hanger with a football field inside of it.

I'm not advocating for either. I'm just saying that at the very least, UAB looked at its budget, looked at its geographic location, and made a decision that might make more sense.

As far as baseball, it's just another proving of my point that heat strokes are not epidemic; they are not even common. The majority of baseball games occur in the summer months. And, even in the hottest of major and minor league locales, you do not have strokes and deaths.

It's good enough to just say, "Look, we want one because everyone else has one" without trying to sell it with a bunch of falsehoods - strokes, recruiting advantage, office space, weight rooms, etc.

The point many of us tried to make has been, it wasn't necessary to go to most of the places they went because there are plenty of examples within driving distance. How difficult is a road trip to Waco, Fort Worth, Frisco, or Norman?

Edited February 22, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

Cr1028 · February 22, 2017

31 minutes ago, meanrob said:

You sure it was Florida A&M? He wouldn't be the first "White Tiger" but now I'm curious if that's the case.

According to 247 and Rivals, Florida A&M and Memphis. Scout lists only offer as Memphis.

6 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm not advocating for either. I'm just saying that at the very least, UAB looked at its budget, looked at its geographic location, and made a decision that might make more sense.

What UAB is doing screams small time which is exactly the way RV would have approached it. I'm for going in a different direction.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 22, 2017

12 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

According to 247 and Rivals, Florida A&M and Memphis. Scout lists only offer as Memphis.

What UAB is doing screams small time which is exactly the way RV would have approached it. I'm for going in a different direction.

It's small time to recognize that it doesn't snow a whole hell of a lot in Birmingham?

Mean Green 93-98 · February 22, 2017

16 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

It's good enough to just say, "Look, we want one because everyone else has one" without trying to sell it with a bunch of falsehoods - strokes, recruiting advantage, office space, weight rooms, etc.

That's pretty much all I see it as. In principle, I despise them, along with million (or multi-million) dollar coaching salaries, stipends for players, and television timeouts. But if you refuse to move in that direction, you leave your program playing at a disadvantage.

And somebody else was saying something about wanting a commitment from higher ups--well, a university president, B.O.R., and A.D. who sign on to this project and raise the money for it have undoubtedly made a statement--"We are committed."

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 22, 2017

48 minutes ago, meanrob said:

You're making my point. Facilities didn't bring in a 4 star recruit that made a difference. A good coach brought in a diamond in the rough and coached him up.

I'm not saying don't build an IPF. But I am saying while I'm wooing a donor to make a donation to the school I'd remind him that paying coaches makes more of a difference than a fancy locker room. And if that donor wants to contribute to both, even better.

If you want to use the Boise comparison, they went through two successful head coaches who left before they got to Peterson. And they stepped up and paid him and his staff extremely well. If we follow that model, there might be a day when we can keep a coach like that around for a few extra years if we can pay him above and beyond.

Just once before I pass on I want to see us have our Paxton Lynch carving up an SEC defense. How do we make that happen?

You sure it was Florida A&M? He wouldn't be the first "White Tiger" but now I'm curious if that's the case.

This. Yes. Flying to f'ing Liberty. Sheesh.

Freaking FIU and FAU just got Butch Davis and Lane Kiffin. Does anyone really think Davis took the FIU job because of their facilities? They gave him a $900,000 base salary to coach a downtrodden school in the C-USA, in a stadium that is horrific.

Facilities and coaches. Come on, man.

4 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

That's pretty much all I see it as. In principle, I despise them, along with million (or multi-million) dollar coaching salaries, stipends for players, and television timeouts. But if you refuse to move in that direction, you leave your program playing at a disadvantage.

And somebody else was saying something about wanting a commitment from higher ups--well, a university president, B.O.R., and A.D. who sign on to this project and raise the money for it have undoubtedly made a statement--"We are committed."

Exactly, and I plus thee 1. But, RV committed to getting us out of Fouts and into a modern stadium. So, even completing a project you've committed to - and, I'd say that a new stadium is much more a necessity than an indoor facility - doesn't mean you are more competitive...as we've, unfortunately, seen.

The cure all for everything is always winning consistently, not we've got this new building or that new building.

Wag Tag · February 22, 2017

3 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I've already responded to your list.

(1) There is not a history at UNT - or anywhere else - of an epidemic of athletes having heat strokes, nor was there ever, and
(2) Facilities can be built for all of those sports without having an airplane hanger football field attached to them, and
(3) The actual need to practice indoors because of the weather in Denton is practically none.

This generation of millennial athletes can't perspire! That is why they have to have a IPF, breathable uniforms and if they do sweat they have uniforms that wick away because god forbid it touches their body! Back in the day we would play the whole game (now the sub every other play) and on special teams ( now they have specialist for special teams) We didn't have all these special items, because we were told over and over by coach we weren't special. How did we survive? Salt tablets! As some of you younger guys may not know sweat taste like salt, so it only makes sense that you would take salt tablets to replace the salt. UNT could save a fortune by bringing salt tablets back! In fact together we could make salt tablets "Great Again"

(it is your responsibility to google for all side effects) But don't sweat it! GMG

forevereagle · February 22, 2017

7 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

This generation of millennial athletes can't perspire! That is why they have to have a IPF, breathable uniforms and if they do sweat they have uniforms that wick away because god forbid it touches their body! Back in the day we would play the whole game (now the sub every other play) and on special teams ( now they have specialist for special teams) We didn't have all these special items, because we were told over and over by coach we weren't special. How did we survive? Salt tablets! As some of you younger guys may not know sweat taste like salt, so it only makes sense that you would take salt tablets to replace the salt. UNT could save a fortune by bringing salt tablets back! In fact together we could make salt tablets "Great Again"

(it is your responsibility to google for all side effects) But don't sweat it! GMG

Can we just stop with "millennial" thing?

Army of Dad · February 22, 2017

Lots of extremes and hyperbole from both sides in this thread.

I'd say the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but it's the off-season and we aren't talking about uniforms so there's that.

UNT Mean Green · February 22, 2017

7 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Right now, Littrell's very nice office overlooks Apogee Stadium. Why would he want to move?

It's really not impressive compared to the majority of HFC offices in FBS

meanrob · February 22, 2017

3 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

Lots of extremes and hyperbole from both sides in this thread.

I'd say the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but it's the off-season and we aren't talking about uniforms so there's that.

Well, chime in and join the hyperbole party.