MGB: Looking back on national signing day (concerns are justified)

untjim1995 · February 3, 2017

17 minutes ago, wardly said:

I am sure their are examples of individual recruits breaking the mold. However, this class basically looks like all the ones we have had since Dickey struck gold about 15 years ago. And, one again, we have a coach who says rankings don't matter. How has that worked out for us since Darrell left? Its my take that a coach who discounts ranking is one that got badly out recruited. While I respect Brett Vito, how in the world you give a "C" rating to a staff that is 12th in the conference and 116th in the nation is beyond me. However, on further examination Brett is right. This class is about average for North Texas, and that's why we have a horse shit football program.I expect more.

You've been a fan here for 50+ years. Why on earth would you expect more after all of these decades of seeing how things have been done here? I'm the exact opposite. I've learned to want more, dream more, and wish more for us, but I've learned to expect the worst around here. Anything above that is just gravy at this point.

MeanGreenTexan · February 3, 2017

16 minutes ago, wardly said:

I am sure their are examples of individual recruits breaking the mold. However, this class basically looks like all the ones we have had since Dickey struck gold about 15 years ago. And, one again, we have a coach who says rankings don't matter. How has that worked out for us since Darrell left? Its my take that a coach who discounts ranking is one that got badly out recruited. While I respect Brett Vito, how in the world you give a "C" rating to a staff that is 12th in the conference and 116th in the nation is beyond me. However, on further examination Brett is right. This class is about average for North Texas, and that's why we have a horse shit football program.I expect more.

This is what I'm talking about... It's almost as if several of you are not even taking into account what happened on the field last year.

If we're talking about ranking the staff SOLELY BASED ON THE 2017 RECRUITING CLASS... you're absolutely correct Mr. Wardly.

Harry · February 3, 2017

8 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

You've been a fan here for 50+ years. Why on earth would you expect more after all of these decades of seeing how things have been done here? I'm the exact opposite. I've learned to want more, dream more, and wish more for us, but I've learned to expect the worst around here. Anything above that is just gravy at this point.

Well stated Jim. Yet, if we aren't honest with ourselves, how can we ever expect to improve our lot? Surely there are areas where we can improve in recruiting. The budget is a good starting point. We know having a top notch hotel will help on visits. Minor items but added together they could make a difference. I just want to know that we are working on identifying and addressing areas that need improvement. I want us to be able to tell a recruit we are at the top of the conference in academics, facilities etc. We should strive to be at the top in every area a recruit and their families judge. As far as high school coaches, I will defer to the great coaches we have on here to get their feedback. What I am hearing is that the high school coaches have a lot of influence and they often veto player and parent interest in UNT. This HAS to be addressed.

Brett Vito · February 3, 2017

18 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

you'd want to compare the previous 4 year's classes

That is essentially what the talent rankings measure, the players currently on the roster, measured by their recruiting rankings.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 3, 2017

17 hours ago, Harry said:

The remarkable thing about those Dickey classes was he did not have a pot to pi$$ in terms of facilities, conference, AD support, asst salaries...the list just goes on and on. How he and Kenny would have loved to have an Apogee Stadium, athletic center, practice fields, C-USA, higher asst pool. They would have thought they died and went to heaven.

Which makes their accomplishments all that more impressive in my mind.

The thing I think Brett missed on, although he does show the 247 rankings - is the frustration that UTSA and their success in the rankings brings to the fan base. Frank WIlson started at the same time as Littrell and does not have near the assets to bring to the table that we do. Yet he still managed to create a buzz around their class that paid dividends.

I used to sell and buy-into the stars don't matter argument until I lived through it in two consecutive coaching tenures (Dodge/Mac).

This is the bottom line, and you can ignore it but it has proven true time and time again...

Stars=Offers=Higher Percentage of Anticipated Success

If more schools want and offer the player the more stars he will have. More often than not higher offer players seem to excel.

So if you state we don't believe in stars you might as well be saying, "we don't want the players that other schools want."

I'm constantly amazed by the folk who know what we had back then and still pooh-pooh Dickey. Even if you take out the year we got in the New Orleans Bowl with a losing record, he had three seasons in a row after that of repeated conference titles and bowls.

When...when..had any other coach done that before on any level, I-A or I-AA? We didn't even go to the I-AA playoffs every year when Corky was leading us. Three consecutive years - never. Three consecutive bowl seasons? Never.

Dickey did it four times in a row, with Fouts and virtually no decent facilities or extras like different helmets/uniforms, etc. The guy was selling ice to eskimos in recruiting back then.

With Apogee, the current facilities, various uniform/helmet choices, and higher payroll to play with, there's no telling how high his ceiling could have been here. You look at Patterson over at TCU, and have to wonder whether Dickey might have been able to repeat that here. I think it was a possibility. Different mindset, though, at TCU re: facilities and athletics than we had at the administrative level...and, the alumni ponied up the money for the Frogs.

untjim1995 · February 3, 2017

10 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I'm constantly amazed by the folk who know what we had back then and still pooh-pooh Dickey. Even if you take out the year we got in the New Orleans Bowl with a losing record, he had three seasons in a row after that of repeated conference titles and bowls.

When...when..had any other coach done that before on any level, I-A or I-AA? We didn't even go to the I-AA playoffs every year when Corky was leading us. Three consecutive years - never. Three consecutive bowl seasons? Never.

Dickey did it four times in a row, with Fouts and virtually no decent facilities or extras like different helmets/uniforms, etc. The guy was selling ice to eskimos in recruiting back then.

With Apogee, the current facilities, various uniform/helmet choices, and higher payroll to play with, there's no telling how high his ceiling could have been here. You look at Patterson over at TCU, and have to wonder whether Dickey might have been able to repeat that here. I think it was a possibility. Different mindset, though, at TCU re: facilities and athletics than we had at the administrative level...and, the alumni ponied up the money for the Frogs.

Dickey didn't motivate the fanbase--he was boring, his offense was insanely boring, and his attitude was poor. Again, like it did with McCarney, maybe the culture here did that to him, making him become so pessimistic that this was all the permeated from his mouth. We weren't going to get anything more than what we got at Dickey's high point, and I doubt very seriously we would have duplicated the 2002-2004 records, as the SBC teams had finally caught up to us and began passing us by.

Dodge was the 'swing or miss" hire. His name was exciting, his offense was alluring, and he had monied fans down the road to follow us if we did anything right. His first few recruiting seasons showed that, especially with skilled positions. But a HS staff and a complete lack of attention for defense was the reason for the colossal miss. If he had a legitimate college coaching staff from the start, which was the fault of his ego, RV's lack of pressure on who brought over as assistants, and Gretchen Bataille for not letting him have extra funding for getting those coaches better salaries.

By the time we fixed the salary issue and hired a real college coach in Dan McCarney, his attitude was refreshing at first, and we saw thigns turning around with the kids that were here, but his offensive gameplan was just Dickey-esque and the reputation of the university was still one that garnered little interest from recruits. And once Mac's health and mind started to deteriorate, it ended up in crashing into the worst loss in modern college football history.

Littrell is lot more Dodge's offensive mind, but like Dickey in personality when he first got here. Exciting gameplan, very laid-back and quiet persona. With coaches like him, the ONLY way it increases interest here for fans, media, and especially recruits is to win. Otherwise, he's just the next guy in along line of people who couldn't duplicate anything close to what Hayden Fry did here in the 70s.

GTWT · February 3, 2017

Hypothesis:

Three star recruits with no red flags overwhelmingly get P5 offers. Those with red-flags (academic, attitude, et al.) end up at G5 schools. If so, this would make a high-ranked G5 class such as UTSA has highly questionable.

Edited February 3, 2017 by GTWT

Mean Green 93-98 · February 3, 2017

4 hours ago, Brett Vito said:

That is essentially what the talent rankings measure, the players currently on the roster, measured by their recruiting rankings.

Cool. I just looked it up; I had never seen it before. http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite?Conference=C-USA

In fairness, for some reason this only factors in 55 UNT players, while other schools have in the 70's. Based on players' average 247 rating, we had the 7th-best talent in C-USA.

Thanks for the info.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Mean Green 93-98

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · February 3, 2017

4 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

Dickey didn't motivate the fanbase--he was boring, his offense was insanely boring, and his attitude was poor. Again, like it did with McCarney, maybe the culture here did that to him, making him become so pessimistic that this was all the permeated from his mouth. We weren't going to get anything more than what we got at Dickey's high point, and I doubt very seriously we would have duplicated the 2002-2004 records, as the SBC teams had finally caught up to us and began passing us by.

Dodge was the 'swing or miss" hire. His name was exciting, his offense was alluring, and he had monied fans down the road to follow us if we did anything right. His first few recruiting seasons showed that, especially with skilled positions. But a HS staff and a complete lack of attention for defense was the reason for the colossal miss. If he had a legitimate college coaching staff from the start, which was the fault of his ego, RV's lack of pressure on who brought over as assistants, and Gretchen Bataille for not letting him have extra funding for getting those coaches better salaries.

By the time we fixed the salary issue and hired a real college coach in Dan McCarney, his attitude was refreshing at first, and we saw thigns turning around with the kids that were here, but his offensive gameplan was just Dickey-esque and the reputation of the university was still one that garnered little interest from recruits. And once Mac's health and mind started to deteriorate, it ended up in crashing into the worst loss in modern college football history.

Littrell is lot more Dodge's offensive mind, but like Dickey in personality when he first got here. Exciting gameplan, very laid-back and quiet persona. With coaches like him, the ONLY way it increases interest here for fans, media, and especially recruits is to win. Otherwise, he's just the next guy in along line of people who couldn't duplicate anything close to what Hayden Fry did here in the 70s.

I was excited to watch Johnny Quinn set North Texas receiving records under Dickey. I also was excited by the career of TE Andy Blount. No other TE since him has come close to as many career receptions as him for a TE since he and Dickey left: 53, 11 TDs.

I was also excited to watch Kevin Galbreath, Patrick Cobbs, and Jamario Thomas.

The closest we've had to Blount since then was Drew Miller, from the great 2013 squad who finished his TE career under McCarney/Canales with 42 receptions and 5 TDs. Andrew Power contributed 30 receptions and 2 TDs while he was here with McCarney/Canales.

Both Miler and Power were good, but neither were Andy Blount. Dickey simply new how to mix it up on offense. And, he used Quinn, Blount, Galbreath, Cobbs, and Thomas to pound enemies into submission. What an awesome display of offensive awesomeness we witness with Dickey's vast array of offensive weaponry and know-how back in the day:

Back-to-Back-to-Back-to-Back conference titles and bowl appearances.

What an offensive mind! What a recruiter! What a coach!

All Hail Coach Darrell Dickey!

Oh yes, offensive records were set under McCarney/Canales as well. But, only Dickey brought home the multiple conference titles and bowl games. We were lucky to have Dickey on our sidelines.

.

wardly · February 3, 2017

I would give our staff a B+ for performance last season, and a D- for recruiting. I guess you could make a "C" out of that, but what is acceptable at UNT is laughable at most other programs. While i have never met UNT 90, I am beginning to think he is right more often than he is wrong.I EXPECT MORE, not more of the same.

Harry · February 3, 2017

3 hours ago, GTWT said:

Hypothesis:

Three star recruits with no red flags overwhelmingly get P5 offers. Those with red-flags (academic, attitude, et al.) end up at G5 schools.

This is pretty accurate. Wren pretty much said as much on our podcast.

wardly · February 4, 2017

So we are better off with about 5 three star recruits that UTSA is with 17 because there are fewer potential red flags? I mean, who makes this stuff up?

ttunt1970 · February 4, 2017

Dickey was trying to get out of here as soon as he arrived and caught lightning with the one class with Booger, Hall ect .

Caw Caw · February 4, 2017

6 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Cool. I just looked it up; I had never seen it before. http://247sports.com/Season/2016-Football/CollegeTeamTalentComposite?Conference=C-USA

In fairness, for some reason this only factors in 55 UNT players, while other schools have in the 70's. Based on players' average 247 rating, we had the 7th-best talent in C-USA.

Thanks for the info.

This is an important point. I always go on the class average, not the class total score. Atleast until we're pulling the same number as everyone else.

Got5onIt · February 4, 2017

4 hours ago, wardly said:

So we are better off with about 5 three star recruits that UTSA is with 17 because there are fewer potential red flags? I mean, who makes this stuff up?

Who is the resident spin doctor?

PlummMeanGreen · February 4, 2017

Spin or no spin, Todd Dodge's first UNT class had 15 "3" star recruits & no winning season from that group.

Yes, we'd all like as many star'd recruits as possible, but that still does not always guarantee a winner.

Most of North Texas best thru the years were most likely 2 star recruits "coached up." They just didn't have enough surrounding them to give us decades of winning teams.

wardly · February 4, 2017

Well, if you have 15 three star recruits and a high school coach with a high school staff and high school offensive/defensive systems you get your ass handed to you, which is not the fault of the players.

Got5onIt · February 4, 2017

8 hours ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

Spin or no spin, Todd Dodge's first UNT class had 15 "3" star recruits & no winning season from that group.

Yes, we'd all like as many star'd recruits as possible, but that still does not always guarantee a winner.

Most of North Texas best thru the years were most likely 2 star recruits "coached up." They just didn't have enough surrounding them to give us decades of winning teams.

McCarney won with those guys. He posted the best season in a decade with Teflon Todd's recruits. Coincidence that was the best class to come through since?

Edited February 4, 2017 by Got5onIt

UNTLifer · February 6, 2017

On 2/4/2017 at 10:35 AM, Got5onIt said:

McCarney won with those guys. He posted the best season in a decade with Teflon Todd's recruits. Coincidence that was the best class to come through since?

The class(es) that led us to the HOD Bowl win against UNLV were basically 2009 and 2010. The only two players that stand out from the 09' class were D. Thompson and R. Boutwell, both two star players that were not heavily recruited. The 2010 class did not have one 3 star recruit but did have the likes of Z. Orr, B. Byrd, B. Chancellor, A. Johnson, M Y'Barbo, W. Wright, etc...

aztecskin · February 6, 2017

On 2/4/2017 at 10:14 AM, wardly said:

Well, if you have 15 three star recruits and a high school coach with a high school staff and high school offensive/defensive systems you get your ass handed to you, which is not the fault of the players.

Right. It has always been about the combination of talent and coaching. I think we have some solid coaching and some good talent. I really think that Mac's recruiting failures were a _bit_ overstated. He failed to recruit well at the most important positions (QB) and that was the cause of most of our problems. He didn't do _great_ and threw his hands up at the end to all of our frustration, but off the top of my head:

Jeff Wilson, Kishawn Mclain, WIlly Ivery (before he flunked out), Brandon Garner, Nate Brooks, Ashton Preston, Jareid Combs -- all of those dudes were big parts of last year's teams.

While there is a list of guys that flamed out, didn't play, or were problems I think the overall culture here helped speed that up. I mentioned on the podcast that Marshall had the number one recruit ranking in the league the last two years . . . and we kicked their ass. WKU had upper third . . . and won the conference back-to-back.

TL;DR: Take a step back, while rankings indicate talent quality, they are not perfect nor are they a perfect predictor of success (especially in CUSA).

ntsumck · February 6, 2017

I listened to Dana Holgorsen last week. He said he cares less about recruiting rankings. He recruits to his needs and who he thinks can help his team win. He made the comment that his 2012 recruiting ranked in the 50's, they reshuffled the rankings this year and that class was moved to the Top 10.

Everyone needs to tap the brakes on the negativity. 3 years ago, we would have never been in the running for some of the kids we lost, ie McNeal. At least we had a chance at him this time.

We all have to agree we needed WR's and OL. I think we did well in those areas.

Wag Tag · February 6, 2017

It would be nice if everybody would consider this class only has 18 and what kind of impact that has on rankings. This is the smallest class that I have seen.

It is also my understanding the blue shirts are not guaranteed a scolly so having them and the PWO for a season that will give us a lot of flexibility for next year.

I wish VITO would dig into the limited scolly issue and fill us in.

I like the class but not the rankings and now I know why! GMG

Brett Vito · February 6, 2017

5 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

The 2010 class did not have one 3 star recruit

Aaron Bellazin -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/64241

Zach Orr -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/24112

Forlando Johnson -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/146237

Ryan Downing -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/80436

Brad Graham -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/64244

Steven Ford -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/134097

Cerebus · February 6, 2017

48 minutes ago, Brett Vito said:

Aaron Bellazin -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/64241

Zach Orr -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/24112

Forlando Johnson -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/146237

Ryan Downing -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/80436

Brad Graham -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/64244

Steven Ford -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/134097

AustinFromUNT · February 7, 2017

2 hours ago, Brett Vito said:

Aaron Bellazin -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/64241

Zach Orr -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/24112

Forlando Johnson -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/146237

Ryan Downing -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/80436

Brad Graham -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/64244

Steven Ford -- https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/134097