Just Venting

[Mike Jackson]

So I am looking at all the information and analysis of UNT's recruiting class and I can't help but think about what could have been.  Yes Darrell Dickey's last 2 seasons were bad but, 4 consecutive conference titles and: 

• Phil Armour center, Indianapolis Colts (2000)
• Adrian Awasom defensive end, New York Giants (2005–2007), Minnesota Vikings (2011)
• John Baker punter, St. Louis Rams (2000–2001): Punted for the Rams during their Super Bowl XXXVI season.
• Patrick Cobbs running back, Miami Dolphins (2006–2010)
• Brad Kassell linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2002–2005), New York Jets (2006–2007)
• Cody Spencer linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2004–2005), New York Jets (2006–2008)
• Brian Waters guard, Dallas Cowboys (1999, 2013) Kansas City Chiefs (2000–2010), New England Patriots (2011): Pro Bowl (2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2010), First Team All-Pro (2004, 2005), NFL Walter Payton Man of the Year Award winner (2009)

Just saying he did a lot of things right and should have been given more resources to work with.  I can't help but think we ruined our chances to be good now being short sighted then.  Maybe if we had hired a "John Mac" type back then with college coaching experience and a staff with coaching connections in Texas high schools UNT would be a solid G5 program on par with Houston.

The moral of this story is patience and try to see the big picture.  UNT hired a first time FBS head coach so they need to give him at least 3 years get this program right.  And for God's sake if Seth is fired 2 years from now, UNT needs to put on big boy pants.   That mean going to get a big name coach who can recruit to "His" brand not UNT's.   I am talking somebody Chip Kelly like otherwise like someone said in another post "continue to be like the Cleveland Browns"

 

[Marty]

Weren't Armour, Waters, and Baker Matt Simon recruits?

[meanrob]

17 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

So I am looking at all the information and analysis of UNT's recruiting class and I can't help but think about what could have been.  Yes Darrell Dickey's last 2 seasons were bad but, 4 consecutive conference titles and: 

• Phil Armour center, Indianapolis Colts (2000)
• Adrian Awasom defensive end, New York Giants (2005–2007), Minnesota Vikings (2011)
• John Baker punter, St. Louis Rams (2000–2001): Punted for the Rams during their Super Bowl XXXVI season.
• Patrick Cobbs running back, Miami Dolphins (2006–2010)
• Brad Kassell linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2002–2005), New York Jets (2006–2007)
• Cody Spencer linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2004–2005), New York Jets (2006–2008)
• Brian Waters guard, Dallas Cowboys (1999, 2013) Kansas City Chiefs (2000–2010), New England Patriots (2011): Pro Bowl (2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2010), First Team All-Pro (2004, 2005), NFL Walter Payton Man of the Year Award winner (2009)

Just saying he did a lot of things right and should have been given more resources to work with.  I can't help but think we ruined our chances to be good now being short sighted then.  Maybe if we had hired a "John Mac" type back then with college coaching experience and a staff with coaching connections in Texas high schools UNT would be a solid G5 program on par with Houston.

The moral of this story is patience and try to see the big picture.  UNT hired a first time FBS head coach so they need to give him at least 3 years get this program right.  And for God's sake if Seth is fired 2 years from now, UNT needs to put on big boy pants.   That mean going to get a big name coach who can recruit to "His" brand not UNT's.   I am talking somebody Chip Kelly like otherwise like someone said in another post "continue to be like the Cleveland Browns"

 

I believe Armour and Waters were recruited by Simon and were long gone by the time most of the players you list were on the two deep. 

Still don't understand how Baker didn't stick around longer in the NFL. He had a cannon for a leg. 

Also, I don't judge those teams by who played in the NFL. We had some ballers who didn't get a whiff from the league. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by meanrob

[Mike Jackson]

3 minutes ago, Marty said:

Weren't Armour, Waters, and Baker Matt Simon recruits?

Yes but you still have to coach them up.   Also, did anyone think Matt Simon was a great recruiter?

[BTG_Fan1]

25 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

So I am looking at all the information and analysis of UNT's recruiting class and I can't help but think about what could have been.  Yes Darrell Dickey's last 2 seasons were bad but, 4 consecutive conference titles and: 

• Phil Armour center, Indianapolis Colts (2000)
• Adrian Awasom defensive end, New York Giants (2005–2007), Minnesota Vikings (2011)
• John Baker punter, St. Louis Rams (2000–2001): Punted for the Rams during their Super Bowl XXXVI season.
• Patrick Cobbs running back, Miami Dolphins (2006–2010)
• Brad Kassell linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2002–2005), New York Jets (2006–2007)
• Cody Spencer linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2004–2005), New York Jets (2006–2008)
• Brian Waters guard, Dallas Cowboys (1999, 2013) Kansas City Chiefs (2000–2010), New England Patriots (2011): Pro Bowl (2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2010), First Team All-Pro (2004, 2005), NFL Walter Payton Man of the Year Award winner (2009)

Just saying he did a lot of things right and should have been given more resources to work with.  I can't help but think we ruined our chances to be good now being short sighted then.  Maybe if we had hired a "John Mac" type back then with college coaching experience and a staff with coaching connections in Texas high schools UNT would be a solid G5 program on par with Houston.

The moral of this story is patience and try to see the big picture.  UNT hired a first time FBS head coach so they need to give him at least 3 years get this program right.  And for God's sake if Seth is fired 2 years from now, UNT needs to put on big boy pants.   That mean going to get a big name coach who can recruit to "His" brand not UNT's.   I am talking somebody Chip Kelly like otherwise like someone said in another post "continue to be like the Cleveland Browns"

 

I do agree that this wasn't the class that will blow people away and that SL do need more time... Most of this staff I'm not even sure had connections to many/any Texas schools. Yes, the history hurts UNT a lot, but it is something that can be fixed somewhat quickly if you can win/keep winning 3/4/5years in a row. Also, I think you will see if it doesn't work out with SL, that they will try to find someone that is a great recruiter/ and young with a lot of energy.

[meanrob]

4 minutes ago, Mike Jackson said:

Yes but you still have to coach them up.   Also, did anyone think Matt Simon was a great recruiter?

Simon wasn't great at anything. Truly the weirdest coaching stint at UNT. Picking a fight with Army. Stolen towels and VCRs. The Safeway quote. He once yelled at me on Eagle Point when I told him it was cool to take a mulligan. Heard way too many crazy behind the scenes story.  

Then again he beat Tech and gave A$M one hell of a half. And promptly got fired. 

[TheTastyGreek]

[Rudy]

9 minutes ago, meanrob said:

Simon wasn't great at anything. Truly the weirdest coaching stint at UNT. Picking a fight with Army. Stolen towels and VCRs. The Safeway quote. He once yelled at me on Eagle Point when I told him it was cool to take a mulligan. Heard way too many crazy behind the scenes story.  

Then again he beat Tech and gave A$M one hell of a half. And promptly got fired. 

Yeah, but did he ever try to charge and fight a fan in the stands?

[Boca_Nasty_96]

Waters Was beast I`ve seen film of him owning Ray Lewis

[Cr1028]

On 2/1/2017 at 7:42 PM, Mike Jackson said:

So I am looking at all the information and analysis of UNT's recruiting class and I can't help but think about what could have been.  Yes Darrell Dickey's last 2 seasons were bad but, 4 consecutive conference titles and: 

• Adrian Awasom defensive end, New York Giants (2005–2007), Minnesota Vikings (2011)
• Patrick Cobbs running back, Miami Dolphins (2006–2010)
• Brad Kassell linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2002–2005), New York Jets (2006–2007)
• Cody Spencer linebacker, Tennessee Titans (2004–2005), New York Jets (2006–2008)
• Craig Robertson linebacker Cleveland Browns, New Orleans Saints

Just saying he did a lot of things right and should have been given more resources to work with.  I can't help but think we ruined our chances to be good now being short sighted then.  Maybe if we had hired a "John Mac" type back then with college coaching experience and a staff with coaching connections in Texas high schools UNT would be a solid G5 program on par with Houston.

The moral of this story is patience and try to see the big picture.  UNT hired a first time FBS head coach so they need to give him at least 3 years get this program right.  And for God's sake if Seth is fired 2 years from now, UNT needs to put on big boy pants.   That mean going to get a big name coach who can recruit to "His" brand not UNT's.   I am talking somebody Chip Kelly like otherwise like someone said in another post "continue to be like the Cleveland Browns"

His first 3 seasons were equally bad. If the Big West continues in 2001 as it did in 2000, Dickey is fired at season's end and it is all a moot point.

Also, please do not forget how painful it was to watch a game in 2006. RV HAD to fire Dickey, there was too much bad blood between his staff and the fanbase by that point. The offense had become one of the worst in D1. We had to endure a 7-OT game with a terrible FIU team (who would end up 0-12 that season) because nobody could freaking score in OT. The score was 16-16 through regulation and 9-6 through 7 overtimes. Do you realize how pathetic a team has to be to get only 9 points in 7 overtime periods?? I would fire Dickey again everyday of the week and twice on Saturdays. He had a good run but had more than worn out his welcome by the time he was shown the door. 

Dodge was a mistake, an overswing of the pendulum if you will. He was the anti-Dickey to the point that we became the best high school team in America. The only problem was, we were playing college football and got smashed every week. He was great at rah, rah, schmoozing donors, and connecting with HS coaches, but he just wasn't ready to run a real college program at that time.

Edited February 3, 2017 by Cr1028

[Mike Jackson]

17 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

Also, please do not forget how painful it was to watch a game in 2006. RV HAD to fire Dickey, there was too much bad blood between his staff and the fanbase by that point. The offense had become one of the worst in D1. We had to endure a 7-OT game with a terrible FIU team (who would end up 0-12 that season) because nobody could freaking score in OT. The score was 16-16 through regulation and 9-6 through 7 overtimes. Do you realize how pathetic a team has to be to get only 9 points in 7 overtime periods?? I would fire Dickey again everyday of the week and twice on Saturdays. He had a good run but had more than worn out his welcome by the time he was shown the door. 

 

UNT’s bowl teams the early 2000s were build on the backs of a terrific class that was loaded with talent and the overall recruiting prowess of Darrell Dickey and his right-hand man Kenny Evans. There are some stubborn old timers who hate to admit it, but Dickey brought in more highly rated and regarded talent than any coach UNT has had since returning to the FBS level and he had less to work with than anyone. He also enjoyed more success.

-Bret Vitto 

I would have been pissed too in Darell Dickey's shoes.  How pathetic has this program been for 90% of the time since Dickey has been dismissed

 

[southsideguy]

I almost think it is bad to bring in coaches from big programs where they have choice of recruits and just need to coach a little.  Where as the not so big programs have to work their ass off to get the players to hire level.

[HoustonEagle]

DD recruited better than those that came after him but lets not act like he was a good recruiter.  He just sucked the least.  

[Got5onIt]

42 minutes ago, HoustonEagle said:

DD recruited better than those that came after him but lets not act like he was a good recruiter.  He just sucked the least.  

LOL!! That's probably pretty accurate. 

[GreenGonzo]

We still hardly won any non-conference games during those New Orleans Bowl years.

[KRAM1]

38 minutes ago, GreenGonzo said:

We still hardly won any non-conference games during those New Orleans Bowl years.

People do seem to forget that.  Didn't we win the SBC with five wins once during that period?  While that was a great era and while we certainly could use some of those great players back, UNT was pretty much the best in a VERY weak conference....as, unfortunately our out of conference record shows.  New Orleans Bowl years were super fun, however, anyway you want to slice it, but, for me, no more fun than our recent two HOD Bowl appearances.  Again, sure fun during conference games during those NOB seasons for sure! 

[Hunter Green]

Wasn't it 2003 that we beat the crap out of Baylor after losing a tough opening game in Oklahoma?

[emmitt01]

"North Texas...where most seasons are shitty, and we personally shit on the seasons that aren't"

[Cerebus]

33 minutes ago, emmitt01 said:

"North Texas...where most seasons are shitty, and we personally shit on the seasons that aren't"

I'm going to ask @Harry if we can go ahead and change the top of the board to this.

[Cr1028]

On 2/4/2017 at 9:08 AM, Mike Jackson said:

UNT’s bowl teams the early 2000s were build on the backs of a terrific class that was loaded with talent and the overall recruiting prowess of Darrell Dickey and his right-hand man Kenny Evans. There are some stubborn old timers who hate to admit it, but Dickey brought in more highly rated and regarded talent than any coach UNT has had since returning to the FBS level and he had less to work with than anyone. He also enjoyed more success.

-Bret Vitto 

I would have been pissed too in Darell Dickey's shoes.  How pathetic has this program been for 90% of the time since Dickey has been dismissed

I guess it is too bad that we can't pull up the rankings for that one terrific class but every other class Dickey had was not as good as Dodge's 2008 class. I don't recall there being better facilities in'08, just a promise that we might have a stadium before they'd graduate.

What measure do you use to determine that Dickey brought in more highly rated and regarded talent than any other? I don't recall talk of Dickey bringing in 15 3-stars in one class or a class ranked 57th in the nation, but I do remember constant complaints on here about "stealth recruiting". You may have slept through the seasons before and after the Sun Belt came and saved Dickey's job but I sure didn't. I remember being Baylor's only win in an empty Floyd Casey in 1999. I remember 50-2 at home against Tulsa in 2005 and 35-0 at home to the MUTS. I remember only getting 3 field goals out of seven overtime drives from the 25 against the worst team in college football.

You may believe that Dickey would've found a way to win again after the rest of the Sun Belt finally got FBS-level talent but I sure don't. He was piloting a ship that was sinking faster than the Titanic and I know for damn sure Apogee doesn't get opened in 2011 if he stays the coach after 2006. He had us pointed straight to D1 purgatory, Dodge screwed up his staff big time for sure, but he also, by class ranking, was the best recruiter we've had. He was also the best hand shaker/baby kisser we've had too, which contributed a lot to butts in the seats, student interest, and ultimately Apogee. 

Dickey, much like Mac was blessed with a class of leaders that would carry the program, but once those leaders graduated they couldn't lead their own programs and everything fell apart.

I will never believe Dickey was one of the "greats" to coach at North Texas because it took a conference change for him to start winning. I'd compare it to NT being dropped into the Southland Conference in 2010 and Dodge ends up winning conference with a losing record.

Dickey is held in high regard by some around here for 4 straight conference championships and 26 straight conference wins but they always seem to ignore the fact that during his "miraculous" bowl run his record was 29-21. Of those 29 victories, a whopping 4 were against teams that didn't have a losing record. That's right, Dickey averaged 1 win per year against bowl eligible teams over that incredible four year span. Don't build that statue just yet. The Sun Belt suck saved Dickey's ass whether you want to admit it or not. When their talent levels caught up to ours, he was toast.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Cr1028
Terrible grammar, wow!

[PlummMeanGreen]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 4:04 PM, Cr1028 said:

His first 3 seasons were equally bad. If the Big West continues in 2001 as it did in 2000, Dickey is fired at season's end and it is all a moot point.

Also, please do not forget how painful it was to watch a game in 2006. RV HAD to fire Dickey, there was too much bad blood between his staff and the fanbase by that point. The offense had become one of the worst in D1. We had to endure a 7-OT game with a terrible FIU team (who would end up 0-12 that season) because nobody could freaking score in OT. The score was 16-16 through regulation and 9-6 through 7 overtimes. Do you realize how pathetic a team has to be to get only 9 points in 7 overtime periods?? I would fire Dickey again everyday of the week and twice on Saturdays. He had a good run but had more than worn out his welcome by the time he was shown the door. 

Dodge was a mistake, an overswing of the pendulum if you will. He was the anti-Dickey to the point that we became the best high school team in America. The only problem was, we were playing college football and got smashed every week. He was great at rah, rah, schmoozing donors, and connecting with HS coaches, but he just wasn't ready to run a real college program at that time.

 

Also, when the Sun Belt began football operations, North Texas had already been back in NCAA D1-A for 5 years with some scholarship numbers advantages I think that gave us as I recall   Yet...other newbie SBC schools were just up from NCAA D1-AA & had (I think) fewer scholarships at that level (although I stand to be corrected with that).  

By the time the other SBC schools caught us after our 4 bowl appearance it was katy bar the door for us as they took off & our losing streak began.  After all that happened, it seems emerging SBC football program Troy received some Top 25 votes which I'm not sure we ever were fortunate to get in our 4 years in a row bowl run. 

Note:  Not intending to take anything away from those 4 bowl appearances as we did win 1 of them and also receive some very nice publicity from those with national TV appearances with each of those games.  It was also an era when some bowl officials apparently started recognizing that North Texas would travel some impressive numbers of fans for a week night bowl game, too.

Going Forward:  I hope when we begin our championship run that it won't be because all the other CUSA schools are having down years or look like a MASH unit when we play them and I also hope we will shed this "we po' but proud"  image we created for ourselves the last 35 years and shoot for Top 25 ranked championship teams. If we aren't shooting for Top 25 then at this level just what the hell are we shooting for?

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

[Aldo]

Whose North Texas is it, Anyway?

Where the past is made up and the wins don't matter

[Cr1028]

4 hours ago, Hunter Green said:

Wasn't it 2003 that we beat the crap out of Baylor after losing a tough opening game in Oklahoma?

This is true, we did beat the crap out of a 3-9 Baylor team in Denton that year. UAB was fortunate enough to beat them too.

[UNTLifer]

DD also didn't have to recruit against as many FCS schools in Texas.  He was a good Sun Belt coach, but played not to win in OOC games and his record shows that.

[Rudy]

14 hours ago, HoustonEagle said:

DD recruited better than those that came after him but lets not act like he was a good recruiter.  He just sucked the least.  

And eventually the rest of the SBC caught up.