Will there be consequences?

PlummMeanGreen · February 2, 2017

Wren Baker & Seth Littrell have inherited more than a few decades of impacted crap that will not be shit out the shute in their first 2 years. Prior bad hires or temporarily good hires that ended bad (and under .500) is our game at UNT. You can't blame them for our prior culture. It's like your dad died & only left you his unpaid bills as your inheritance. Baker & Littrell inherited nothing but the "P" word in Denton.

No, we were not a shiny new start up toy but rather a ship with over 100 plus years of barnacles hanging on our exterior. We as fans & alums are part of that barnacle build up as much as we'd hate to admit it. Finger pointing is one of our best traits--problem solving is not.

When Rod Rust ran out of the Joe Greene era talent & then his last season finished with 0 (or was it 1) win. SMU fired Fry--North Texas hired Fry. He came in & won 5 games his 1'st season & then in year 2 he had a 2 win season. This school came close to dropping football right before Fry arrived after Rod Rust last season so yet another dark cloud created by our (then) tenured activists on campus. If there is ever a time for endless bad cycles to end it's now.

No matter how we won or who the opponent, we still had coaches who got 5 wins out of a 1 win team when most thought there was no talent left behind to do even that.

Honestly, how many 3 star linemen has UNT ever recruited? Seems we recruited more skill position speed along with what could be a group of coachable (& grow'able in the weight room) linemen. Possibly among this group the kind that can be "coached up" to 3 or more stars at the college level. Now if we had coaches who could not "coach up" talent we'd really be in trouble. I don't think we have that problem at North Texas.

"Flagelations will cease when morale improves."

Edited February 2, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

Army of Dad · February 2, 2017

7 hours ago, NorthTexan95 said:

That's doesn't really apply to this topic unless you think he was fired because he couldn't recruit.

You said " You don't throw people out after one year - that's how bad programs are run."

Tommy Perry was let go after one year in #newdenton. So you either think SL is running a bad program or you misstated your position.

NorthTexan95 · February 2, 2017

1 hour ago, Army of Dad said:

You said " You don't throw people out after one year - that's how bad programs are run."

Tommy Perry was let go after one year in #newdenton. So you either think SL is running a bad program or you misstated your position.

Letting an assistant coach go ... who had been here for several years .. is not the same as letting go an AD or assistant AD or head coach or offensive coordinator or defensive coordinator or recruiting coordinator ... who are leading and setting the direction of their respective areas. These are completely different situations.

Besides, y'all are begging for someone to be held accountable. Perhaps this is Perry being held accountable for the meh special teams this past season. I really don't believe that, though. I do think Littrell wanted a better special teams coach or perhaps someone with a different philosophy on special teams play while also knowing he didn't really need a dedicated running backs coach. Add in the fact that Perry was kept on as the one coach who knew the history of the players and that he's never coached in this offense before (I'm pretty sure about that) and it's no surprise at all that he's gone. Perry's situation is completely different from the topic of this thread.

AustinFromUNT · February 2, 2017

1 hour ago, Army of Dad said:

You said " You don't throw people out after one year - that's how bad programs are run."

Tommy Perry was let go after one year in #newdenton. So you either think SL is running a bad program or you misstated your position.

Almost no details were released about the parting of ways. SL and co could have made an agreement with him that he could stick around for a year to help acclimate the new staff. Another situation is Perry said he would help them for a year and then he wanted to leave after that. We'll likely never know.

Eagle-96 · February 2, 2017

This staff has a long way to go to change the minds of high school players and coaches. UNT has been associated with losing for a long long long time. One of the only things we have to offer right now is a legitimate chance of playing time as a freshman. That is simply not enough for most high school kids. We have lost A LOT over the years. We have NEVER sniffed selling out the stadium. We have a hard time getting on regional TV let alone national TV. UNT has been the butt of college football jokes for years and a fallback for players. Seth and Co are going to have to win with the players they can get and win consistently. Only then will players and coaches take notice that we are serious about football. It's a crappy situation but it's the one we are in. I know I am preaching to the choir but UNT is not thought of very highly from an athletic standpoint. We are known as a school that has great Music and EM programs that HAPPENS to play sports. It is going to take WINNING to change the minds of high school players and coaches. The worst decision the UNT Admin ever made was dropping to 1AA in the 80's. It's sad to think where we could be as a university had we not made this colossal error in judgement. That being said, It is a catch 22 that we are in as a program because we need to win consistently to change perceptions. To win consistently we need great recruiting classes. Seth is going to have to win with what we have. Ask BillySee, RealJayD, GMG24 and some of the others that are plugged in to recruiting what the perception is and I assure you it will be sobering.

AustinFromUNT · February 2, 2017

Plus let's be real here. You don't think WB is going to talk to Seth in private and say "hey I know it was your first year and it was rough, but you really need to pull in a better class next year". It's all AD politics. WB and SL both seem like guys who want to get stuff done and do it right. SL will look at this year as a learning experience for what to do differently next year and he has started building bridges now. Maybe it's because I'm a millennial, maybe it's because I just have more patience, maybe I haven't heard what seems to some like the same thing for 10+ years, but I truly believe SL and WB can get us turned around. Will it happen in only 1-2 years of them being here? Can you lose 40 pounds in 1-2 months? No it takes time just like getting a good perception takes time. Most of SL's offenses have taken off in his second year coaching there, so let's see what he does this year before some go off the deep end. Does anyone really doubt that WB is going to fire TB, like, at all? It's so certain that it is going to happen that at this point it's just a formality. It would seem that WB is going the Teddy Roosevelt route and "speaking quietly, while carrying a big stick". In the words of Aaron Rodgers "R-E-L-A-X".

Cerebus · February 2, 2017

8 minutes ago, AustinFromUNT said:

maybe I haven't heard what seems to some like the same thing for 10+ years

It's that.

WARNING: Once you been here for 20+ years and seen 5 winning seasons you'll be just as bitter and decrepit as the rest of us.

El Paso Eagle · February 2, 2017

So we have a coach who gave us hope when we did not expect it last season and many are already ready to tell him how to do his job.

MeanGreenTexan · February 2, 2017

This thread is asking for "consequences" based on a recruiting class rank from a website. Are you out of your mind?

WE JUST WENT FROM 1-11 TO 5-7!

Got5onIt · February 2, 2017

1 minute ago, El Paso Eagle said:

So we have a coach who gave us hope when we did not expect it last season and many are already ready to tell him how to do his job.

Damn right. It's called a sports message forum where nothing less is expected to happen. We're all arm chair QB's and the best damn GM/AD this side of the Mississippi. We pay good money and waist countless hours for this program which we all feel gives us every right to bitch & moan. I'm 1st in line every time....

El Paso Eagle · February 2, 2017

3 minutes ago, Got5onIt said:

Damn right. It's called a sports message forum where nothing less is expected to happen. We're all arm chair QB's and the best damn GM/AD this side of the Mississippi. We pay good money and waist countless hours for this program which we all feel gives us every right to bitch & moan. I'm 1st in line every time....

Sorry, I missed where you were forced to support the program :)

Eagle-96 · February 2, 2017

12 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

It's that.

WARNING: Once you been here for 20+ years and seen 5 winning seasons you'll be just as bitter and decrepit as the rest of us.

200.gif#4

Got5onIt · February 2, 2017

3 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Sorry, I missed where you were forced to support the program :)

Hey, Mean Green fans are masochists. You should know that by now.

Cerebus · February 2, 2017

16 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

So we have a coach who gave us hope when we did not expect it last season and many are already ready to tell him how to do his job.

Let me use the same analogy I used for the last AD:

On 11/16/2014 at 10:13 AM, Cerebus said:

I am really tired of this argument. Let me explain once again. We are customers, the coaches are contractors we have hired. Now I hire contractors because they have skills I don't have. I don't know how to do major plumbing, but if the plumber I hire does some work that causes the toilet to flush directly out of the shower head, despite the fact I am not a plumber I have every right to complain about the work and fire the contractor.

I don't know how to coach college football, I am helping to pay paying for a contractor to come in to do that. I am very unhappy with the work the contractor has delivered so far.

The sub contractor (MAC) had better figure out how to fix his crew (other coaches/recruiters) or I am going to lose faith in that subcontractor, and start to wonder why the general contractor (RV) doesn't get more blame for hiring so many subpar sub contractors (Dodge, Benford, etc).

Let me be clear: I do not think that The Wren™ or SL need to go. In fact, on balance I am pretty happy with everything they have done. But recruiting was awful and it has to be improved. If they need more staff, lets get them. If they need outside help with content, let's get that. If they need coaching staff changes, they need to face reality and do that.

Finishing 12th in the conference isn't good enough. Withers and Wilson got hired at the same time, at places with no winning history, with worse facilities than us in every way... and they both killed us in recruiting. Withers was 1st in his conference, and Wilson was nudged out of 1st on NSD.

GOMG2013 · February 2, 2017

IMO Littrel put UNT and himself in a must win situation next year with this class. A good class and people would be willing to wait for the results. The only thing he will be able to sell to recruits is back to back bowls. A non bowl season next year means a similar class to this year and it also means the "tee it high and let it fly" offense was a failure and won't attract players like we thought it would.

UNT needs a gimmick, and needs one fast. I know some are saying winning will solve the problem. Well we went 9-4 and won a bowl game in the middle of Dallas and didn't see a big difference. And Litrell isn't going to win 9 games in the near future. Well that was only one winning season...we need multiple winning seasons... Why does UNT have to have multiple winning seasons while other teams are having recruiting success without it? The Texas State success is the writing on the wall cause they are just as bad as UNT.

Is it just as simple as who was hired at Texas State and UTSA? I'm sorry. The question has to be asked...Especially for schools who need a recruiting advantage and gimmick to compete with schools who have more...Are these coaches having recruiting success cause they are black/AA? The last two UNT coaching staffs had little diversity with the head coaches and coordinators. And this is a totally different era, so anything past 10 years is totally irrelevant.

I'm hoping Litrell can win and give us 2 back to back bowl seasons, but something tells me even that won't be enough.

Edited February 2, 2017 by GOMG2013

GTWT · February 2, 2017

14 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Its the reason UNT has sucked at everything for an awful long time.

Over-generalize much?

Eagle-96 · February 2, 2017

13 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Over-generalize much?

I may not agree with grabbing the picthforks and torches and heading to the AC just yet but other than soccer this is not an over generalization.

GTWT · February 2, 2017

Just now, Eagle-96 said:

I may not agree with grabbing the picthforks and torches and heading to the AC just yet but other than soccer this is not an over generalization.

Do you really believe that UNT has sucked at everything? Or just athletics? Or just football & basketball?

My university has a proud history in music, business, education, biological sciences, and many others. Careful how you generalize.

Eagle-96 · February 2, 2017

10 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Do you really believe that UNT has sucked at everything? Or just athletics? Or just football & basketball?

My university has a proud history in music, business, education, biological sciences, and many others. Careful how you generalize.

I believe the suckosity falls on athletics(as this is an athletics board for the most part) and that is what we are talking about here. I am VERY proud of the university as a whole. But the Athletic Department has been dysfunctional fr a VERY VERY VERY long time. I believe WB can, and will, change that.

TheColonyEagle · February 2, 2017

5 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Finishing 12th in the conference isn't good enough. Withers and Wilson got hired at the same time, at places with no winning history, with worse facilities than us in every way... and they both killed us in recruiting. Withers was 1st in his conference, and Wilson was nudged out of 1st on NSD.

I'm going to re-emphasize Cerebus's post and let this sink in because his point is 100% right on:

Withers and Wilson got hired at the same time, at places with no winning history, with worse facilities than us in every way... and they both killed us in recruiting.

That is simply indefensible any way you look at it.

Edited February 2, 2017 by TheColonyEagle

MeanGreenTexan · February 2, 2017

2 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I'm going to re-emphasize Cerebus's post and let this sink in because his point is 100% right on:

Withers and Wilson got hired at the same time, at places with no winning history, with worse facilities than us in every way... and they both killed us in recruiting.

That is simply indefensible any way you look at it.

OK. Great!

Since you posted this in a thread titled: "Will there be consequences?", I assume you also desire "consequences" for this indefensible atrocity? If so, what should they be?

TheColonyEagle · February 2, 2017

Just now, MeanGreenTexan said:

OK. Great!

Since you posted this in a thread titled: "Will there be consequences?", I assume you also desire "consequences" for this indefensible atrocity? If so, what should they be?

I guess I didn't pay attention to the title of the thread. But I agreed with Cerebus's point.

As for consequences, (since that's the title of the thread) No one needs to get fired.....

But I would imagine the new AD would want to ask his HC if he plans on getting his ass handed to him in recruiting by 2 new D1 schools every year and if he does....then he's not going to be there long.

You know...something like that.

MeanGreenTexan · February 2, 2017

2 minutes ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I guess I didn't pay attention to the title of the thread. But I agreed with Cerebus's point.

As for consequences, (since that's the title of the thread) No one needs to get fired.....

But I would imagine the new AD would want to ask his HC if he plans on getting his ass handed to him in recruiting by 2 new D1 schools every year and if he does....then he's not going to be there long.

You know...something like that.

To which, I would expect Littrell to tell WB to "turn on the tape", "we got the guys we wanted", etc... His off-brand ingredients might just be good. The proof will be in the pudding.

GangGreen · February 2, 2017

6 hours ago, Cerebus said:

It's that.

WARNING: Once you been here for 20+ years and seen 5 winning seasons you'll be just as bitter and decrepit as the rest of us.

Wait a minute....

5?????

Did I miss one? God, please don't say I actually missed a winning season. The last twenty years have been hell.

TheColonyEagle · February 2, 2017

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

To which, I would expect Littrell to tell WB to "turn on the tape", "we got the guys we wanted", etc... His off-brand ingredients might just be good. The proof will be in the pudding.

I obviously hope you're right.

But I don't think recruiting classes in the bottom of the conference is sustainable....regardless of the diamonds he may find.

Edited February 2, 2017 by TheColonyEagle