Round 2 of Facilities Improvement Started

GreenMachine · February 17, 2017

3 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

As I've said many times our best averages have never been anywhere close to capacity. A crazy luxurious 5K arena is perfect.

Agree, bigger isn't always better. That's what she said anyway:)

drycreek · February 17, 2017

make it at least 8,000 cap. or for get it----we think like high school

GreenMachine · February 17, 2017

1 minute ago, drycreek said:

make it at least 8,000 cap. or for get it----we think like high school

I disagree. I would rather have a 5k stadium that is 95% sold out than an 8k stadium that is appropriately 68% sold out, any day of the week.

GrandGreen · February 17, 2017

NT could just rent one of the local Denton high school arenas and save all kinds of money. It's off season, so I guess we can debate the size of a stadium that may or may not be built.

One thing to remember though is if NT turns their program around and student support rises. It is going to be very difficult to limit student seating when in effect they are the ones footing the biggest share of the costs. 10% of the student body gets tickets and that won't leave many for anybody else. Back in the Snake Pit days, the gym had 4 to 5 thousand bleacher seating; the students were probably 80% of the audience, with a school size of about 15K.

Again, I don't understand the love of the plastic, bright, smaller arenas that many seem to think is the gold standard now. Nether do I believe that there is no way to remodel the SP and have a better facility than building a facility half the size at a significantly higher cost.

Building a new facility in the Metroplex that is below the standards of the other three major college basketball playing schools will send a horrible message.

Ryan Munthe · February 17, 2017

We averaged 3552 during 2011-12, and 2716 in 2010-11. So please keep telling me how incredible our attendance was with Johnny. The reality was that the crowd was engaged, and the students were in force. None of that happens anymore. A 5K-6K stadium is more than adequate.

All the way back to 2007...3700 was our high point for the season. Y'all live on another plane of reality sometimes. A smaller stadium would have an incredible atmosphere.

EDIT: how bout instead of downvoting, you just reply and refute my points? I'm genuinely curious as to why y'all think 10K needs to happen

Edited February 17, 2017 by Ryan Munthe

BTG_Fan1 · February 17, 2017

57 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

NT could just rent one of the local Denton high school arenas and save all kinds of money. It's off season, so I guess we can debate the size of a stadium that may or may not be built.

One thing to remember though is if NT turns their program around and student support rises. It is going to be very difficult to limit student seating when in effect they are the ones footing the biggest share of the costs. 10% of the student body gets tickets and that won't leave many for anybody else. Back in the Snake Pit days, the gym had 4 to 5 thousand bleacher seating; the students were probably 80% of the audience, with a school size of about 15K.

Again, I don't understand the love of the plastic, bright, smaller arenas that many seem to think is the gold standard now. Nether do I believe that there is no way to remodel the SP and have a better facility than building a facility half the size at a significantly higher cost.

Building a new facility in the Metroplex that is below the standards of the other three major college basketball playing schools will send a horrible message.

The cost of keeping the SuperPit is costly(even at the lowest of standards needed), and to make upgrades that will be needed in the future even more costly. Another thing to factor in is the amount of wasted energy(because its not very energy efficient) that they put into the Superpit, in terms of heating/cooling, etc as well on top of amount of time it's used for classes, offices, and teacher offices on top of practice and other uses as well.

I'm also sure that they will not build a stadium that is sub-par, nor below average.

GrandGreen · February 17, 2017

1 hour ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

The cost of keeping the SuperPit is costly(even at the lowest of standards needed), and to make upgrades that will be needed in the future even more costly. Another thing to factor in is the amount of wasted energy(because its not very energy efficient) that they put into the Superpit, in terms of heating/cooling, etc as well on top of amount of time it's used for classes, offices, and teacher offices on top of practice and other uses as well.

I'm also sure that they will not build a stadium that is sub-par, nor below average.

Do you have an analysis that supports your contentions? I assume one exists, or they wouldn't even be talking about a new facility.

Didn't state anything about sub-par or below average. What I did said is it will send a bad message if NT's arena is not up to the standards of UTA, TCU and SMU.

I am not against a new arena, I just don't think it is as critical as many think. Bad wiring, not in compliance with the ADA and not energy efficient are the current rationale presented to support a new facility. Add the SP is old and ugly. The truth is that the SP has been operating for decades with those deficiencies and I have heard of nothing that has changed that now makes operating under those conditions impossible.

UNTFan23 · February 17, 2017

9 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

We averaged 3552 during 2011-12, and 2716 in 2010-11. So please keep telling me how incredible our attendance was with Johnny. The reality was that the crowd was engaged, and the students were in force. None of that happens anymore. A 5K-6K stadium is more than adequate.

All the way back to 2007...3700 was our high point for the season. Y'all live on another plane of reality sometimes. A smaller stadium would have an incredible atmosphere.

EDIT: how bout instead of downvoting, you just reply and refute my points? I'm genuinely curious as to why y'all think 10K needs to happen

If we're going to lowball a new arena on seating capacity, it must be planned with expansion in mind (likely second deck) and be built out as much as possible to support a quick expansion. If that means taking costs from $60 million to $70 million for a 5k seat stadium, then so be it. What makes a small arena of only 5k seem like such a bad idea is that you'll have to do somewhere around a 50/50 or 60/40 split between students and alumni/fans who purchase tickets.

UNTLifer · February 17, 2017

9 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

We averaged 3552 during 2011-12, and 2716 in 2010-11. So please keep telling me how incredible our attendance was with Johnny. The reality was that the crowd was engaged, and the students were in force. None of that happens anymore. A 5K-6K stadium is more than adequate.

All the way back to 2007...3700 was our high point for the season. Y'all live on another plane of reality sometimes. A smaller stadium would have an incredible atmosphere.

EDIT: how bout instead of downvoting, you just reply and refute my points? I'm genuinely curious as to why y'all think 10K needs to happen

First, I am reading that folks want 8,000 not 10,000. Second, our history goes beyond the years you attended and Johnny Jones coached. A planned arena that would only seat 10% of projected enrollment is a joke. Build a consistent winning team this building the need for a normal sized arena.

Edited February 17, 2017 by UNTLifer

Ryan Munthe · February 17, 2017

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

First, I am reading that folks want 8,000 not 10,000. Second, our history goes beyond the years you attended and Johnny Jones coached. A planned arena that would only seat 10% of projected enrollment is a joke. Build a consistent winning team this building the need for a normal sized arena.

I didn't attend in 2007. I quoted his best years, and said we've never averaged enough to make more than 5K logical. Which I just laid out for everyone. North Texas basketball has never--even in its heyday--brought enough for an 8K arena.

We didn't sell out the Pit for Tech in the best years of UNT MBB. That's the reality. We didn't sell 8,000 tickets, either.

UNTLifer · February 17, 2017

Our history goes further than "all the way back to 2007."

UNTFan23 · February 17, 2017

2 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

I didn't attend in 2007. I quoted his best years, and said we've never averaged enough to make more than 5K logical. Which I just laid out for everyone. North Texas basketball has never--even in its heyday--brought enough for an 8K arena.

We didn't sell out the Pit for Tech in the best years of UNT MBB. That's the reality. We didn't sell 8,000 tickets, either.

With your logic we should have never built Apogee at 30k. 20k would have made for better looking crowds and more sellouts.

forevereagle · February 17, 2017

If the SP continues to operate, could this new arena be a venue for other events? Could this be rented out for things and be a part of the hotel area and be part of a convention center concept? Would more than 5k make sense then? I don't see why you would be a multi use facility that holds so few people with such a large student body.

Aldo · February 17, 2017

5 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

With your logic we should have never built Apogee at 30k. 20k would have made for better looking crowds and more sellouts.

TreeFiddy · February 17, 2017

8 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

With your logic we should have never built Apogee at 30k. 20k would have made for better looking crowds and more sellouts.

There were many making the same arguments for Apogee to be 50,000 seats or not build it at all.

UNTFan23 · February 17, 2017

1 minute ago, TreeFiddy said:

There were many making the same arguments for Apogee to be 50,000 seats or not build it at all.

I was one who felt not going above 30k was best given our lack of having crowds anywhere close to 30k.

With the new arena, lots of people seem fine with 8k, which is a reduction from what we have now. With a 5k arena, the best you might have for student participation is 2,500 as I doubt the AD will go past a 50/50 split in favor of the student body. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if the split was 60/40 in favor of paid ticket holders like it is today with the SP, which means there will only be 2k seats for our 35k+ student body.

TreeFiddy · February 17, 2017

25 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

I was one who felt not going above 30k was best given our lack of having crowds anywhere close to 30k.

With the new arena, lots of people seem fine with 8k, which is a reduction from what we have now. With a 5k arena, the best you might have for student participation is 2,500 as I doubt the AD will go past a 50/50 split in favor of the student body. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if the split was 60/40 in favor of paid ticket holders like it is today with the SP, which means there will only be 2k seats for our 35k+ student body.

Maybe the students would actually get excited about it if there were a chance they wouldn't get a seat without having to pay for a ticket.

Anyway, here is a link to the Allen Events center wiki page. It is in the general neighborhood of a 7k-8k aren and it was built for around $60M in today's dollars. Not sure that its design is exactly what we would be looking for, but it might serve as a reasonable approximation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Event_Center

UNTFan23 · February 17, 2017

25 minutes ago, TreeFiddy said:

Maybe the students would actually get excited about it if there were a chance they wouldn't get a seat without having to pay for a ticket.

Anyway, here is a link to the Allen Events center wiki page. It is in the general neighborhood of a 7k-8k aren and it was built for around $60M in today's dollars. Not sure that its design is exactly what we would be looking for, but it might serve as a reasonable approximation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Event_Center

Students might be even more excited if the team were winning more games than they were losing.

Limited seat availability doesn't make more people [more excited to] show up for games, it might only make them get tickets sooner to make sure they can get a seat. It could help drive season ticket sales if getting walk-up tickets becomes problematic until you have sold out of all available paid ticket seats. Odds are the Athletic Department would keep about 250 seats open for visiting teams or whatever the requirement is for CUSA.

Edited February 17, 2017 by UNTFan23

PlummMeanGreen · February 17, 2017

12 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

We averaged 3552 during 2011-12, and 2716 in 2010-11. So please keep telling me how incredible our attendance was with Johnny. The reality was that the crowd was engaged, and the students were in force. None of that happens anymore. A 5K-6K stadium is more than adequate.

All the way back to 2007...3700 was our high point for the season. Y'all live on another plane of reality sometimes. A smaller stadium would have an incredible atmosphere.

EDIT: how bout instead of downvoting, you just reply and refute my points? I'm genuinely curious as to why y'all think 10K needs to happen

What would happen if UNT actually had a BB team that got past the 1'st round of March Madness? Perhaps a demand for tickets from a student body that will hit 45,000 enrollment according to the THECB?

Why build small based on a program that's had small goals (if any goals at all)?

In 1975 we had Kenny Williams, Fred Mitchell & Melvin Davis & about 17,000 students. That 20 plus wins BB team hosted SMU to 10,700 fans in the Super Pit & some of us on this forum were there. That 1975 UNT MG BB team I feel would have gotten past the 1'st round had the NCAA just had more invites to March Madness as present day. You who were not born have no idea the buzz that that 1975 team brought to the Super Pit. Wish we had a video of that game so you could see.

Still, 17,000 students, an entertaining, winning BB team & 10,700 at a home game in the SP? The formula is still out there for a similar success but...it begins with winning year after year after year.

Our planning & mindset at UNT is still laced with a culture of losing. I wonder for how much longer until sound reason once again rules the discussion?

GMG!

Edited February 17, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

Ryan Munthe · February 17, 2017

3 hours ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

What would happen if UNT actually had a BB team that got past the 1'st round of March Madness? Perhaps a demand for tickets from a student body that will hit 45,000 enrollment according to the THECB?

Why build small based on a program that's had small goals (if any goals at all)?

In 1975 we had Kenny Williams, Fred Mitchell & Melvin Davis & about 17,000 students. That 20 plus wins BB team hosted SMU to 10,700 fans in the Super Pit & some of us on this forum were there. That 1975 UNT MG BB team I feel would have gotten past the 1'st round had the NCAA just had more invites to March Madness as present day. You who were not born have no idea the buzz that that 1975 team brought to the Super Pit. Wish we had a video of that game so you could see.

Still, 17,000 students, an entertaining, winning BB team & 10,700 at a home game in the SP? The formula is still out there for a similar success but...it begins with winning year after year after year.

Our planning & mindset at UNT is still laced with a culture of losing. I wonder for how much longer until sound reason once again rules the discussion?

GMG!

Your consistent arguments about how big UNT is and how that affects attendance is pointless. UH has terrible basketball attendance and they're larger. It literally means nothing.

And for the record, I do think Apogee is too large. Build it at 25K, expandable to 40K, and then 50K.

5 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Our history goes further than "all the way back to 2007."

No, but our greatest basketball year was 2007. New MBB stadium should be 5K, expandable to 7K.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Ryan Munthe

PlummMeanGreen · February 17, 2017

1 hour ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Your consistent arguments about how big UNT is and how that affects attendance is pointless. UH has terrible basketball attendance and they're larger. It literally means nothing.

And for the record, I do think Apogee is too large. Build it at 25K, expandable to 40K, and then 50K.

No, but our greatest basketball year was 2007. New MBB stadium should be 5K, expandable to 7K.

Your era--My era, apples & oranges.

Didn't you work for North Texas at some point?

Were you around in 1975? Those who were would disagree with you. Kenny Williams was the NCAA national champion rebounder from that team.

And in 2007 when did the Super Pit have a sellout? Did that team make the 2'nd round of March Madness? (No...none of ours in the last 20 years did when the NCAA more than doubled the number of invites, too).

*In the 70's I think only a total of 36 schools got invites to the Big Dance. Very few Independents.

Are you one of Dentons favorite sons? (You think like one). Very small time, quite regressive & I'd guess you are probably the offspring of a public educator or government employee or are you one yourself? Private citizens operate much different than those on the government teat.

Edited February 17, 2017 by PlummMeanGreen

Ryan Munthe · February 17, 2017

8 minutes ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

Your era--My era, apples & oranges.

Didn't you work for North Texas at some point?

Were you around in 1975? Those who were would disagree with you. Kenny Williams was the NCAA national champion rebounder from that team.

And in 2007 when did the Super Pit have a sellout? Did that team make the 2'nd round of March Madness? (No...none of ours in the last 20 years did when the NCAA more than doubled the number of invites, too).

*In the 70's I think only a total of 36 schools got invites to the Big Dance. Very few Independents.

Are you one of Dentons favorite sons? (You think like one). Very small time, quite regressive & I'd guess you are probably the offspring of a public educator or government employee or you are one yourself.

UNT has never made the second round of the tournament. UNT's first invite was 86. It wasn't my era. Statistically, the mid-2000s was our most successful era. Yes, we were ranked under Blakely, but the reality is we had sustained success under Johnny unlike any other.

I'm not going to sling mud at you, I'd prefer not to get in a pissing match with you when your entire argument is built on nostalgia.

My argument is that numbers don't matter to recruits. Lively atmosphere is what matters. A full arena will always be a better draw for recruits than a full--and empty--arena.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Ryan Munthe

GrandGreen · February 17, 2017

7 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

UNT has never made the second round of the tournament. UNT's first invite was 86. It wasn't my era. Statistically, the mid-2000s was our most successful era. Yes, we were ranked under Blakely, but the reality is we had sustained success under Johnny unlike any other.

I'm not going to sling mud at you, I'd prefer not to get in a pissing match with you when your entire argument is built on nostalgia.

My argument is that numbers don't matter to recruits. Lively atmosphere is what matters. A full arena will always be a better draw for recruits than a full--and empty--arena.

You are so wrong, check your history. Compare the Jones schedule with the ones when NT was in the MVC or the Blakeley era. There is frankly no comparison, because the schedule of the older teams were much more difficult. Elvin Haynes, Oscar Robinson, Mark Aguirre, Larry Kennon, Wes Unseld or a few players that NT faced in those nostalgia times.

No the argument is not based on nostalgia, in my case it is based on viewing the teams. However, just look at the history and check how many ranked teams NT beat versus Jones who never came close to achieving that. Look at the competition, Blakeley or Spika didn't play a Sun Beltt schedule and both had much better teams than Jones ever came close to putting on the court.

Edited February 18, 2017 by GrandGreen

BTG_Fan1 · February 17, 2017

1 hour ago, Ryan Munthe said:

No, but our greatest basketball year was 2007. New MBB stadium should be 5K, expandable to 7K.

This is what I would think the new SP is most likely to be... Something like 5k with it being able to be expanded.. No idea if that means the leave room for us to add seating after a few years or if they plan on having suites or what.. but this seems like the best idea.

UNT would match rather turn away people in a 5k stadium, then have a 7 or 8k stadium that is only 1/2 full. Prices go up, and pushes people to buy season tickets. Also, it looks better on TV in terms of a full-house.

5 hours ago, TreeFiddy said:

Maybe the students would actually get excited about it if there were a chance they wouldn't get a seat without having to pay for a ticket.

Anyway, here is a link to the Allen Events center wiki page. It is in the general neighborhood of a 7k-8k aren and it was built for around $60M in today's dollars. Not sure that its design is exactly what we would be looking for, but it might serve as a reasonable approximation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Event_Center

I haven't been to the Allen center, but I would think just looking at the picture of the inside that it would be more than enough. I'm sure that the Allen Center at near $60(wiki says est. is 58M, so you are correct) has some addition things that we won't need I would assume. So I would think the price would slightly come down. It looks like the Allen Center, has about 30 suites, do we think we would need that many(I'd say no?) but I do like and would think that UNT would like to have a larger club area like they do at Apogee, or would we be okay with Apogee holding most events?

I would just guess/estimate the most likely target in terms of money spent on the new SuperPit would be somewhere in the $30-50M, with it most likely being around 40-50(I'm guessing but have no idea). Another question would be, where would they build it/ where would you want it??

6 hours ago, forevereagle said:

If the SP continues to operate, could this new arena be a venue for other events? Could this be rented out for things and be a part of the hotel area and be part of a convention center concept? Would more than 5k make sense then? I don't see why you would be a multi use facility that holds so few people with such a large student body.

I would think the SP goes away almost entirely once the new SP is built. With the events like the Cheerleading/Volleyball/Basketball tourney's that it hosts either moving to the new SP, or some of them being moved to the PEB or Bonshan Gym. They have talked about tearing down Fouts and making it parking lot till they can build something(believe it was brought up earlier what would/could eventually replace it) in its spot. I would think with the location of the SP its a prime location for something new to be built as well. Near by are multiple dorms, along with the Gateway center.