MGB: Sunday night recruiting tidbit

Ryan Munthe · January 30, 2017

8 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Until the UNT 17 told RV the were buying out DMac, this point above was dead-on for decades. We basically went from quarter-assing it until we started to half-ass it by building a new stadium and increase funding for the program. After the DMac firing and subsequent releasing of RV, I think we are about 3/4s of the way towards running a real FBS AD--which means we are still lacking 25% of being where other G5s are in this region.

Littrell is a solid x's and o's coach. Great offensive mind. But what we have never known is if a guy who has been coaching only at P5s could really make a dent with TX HS coaches and parents here at UNT, a place where a local HS coach recently told a client of mine, "UNT is still UNT--the kids want to go somewhere that is known for more than just losing and nobody really caring." That is a gut-punch to alums like me, but I get it. Like it or not, kids know about SMU and Rice, from their history to their degree value in the state. Kids know about UH and La Tech being solid programs at the G5 level. They know UTSA plays big name opponents in San Antonio EVERY YEAR and are sold on building something there in the Alamo City, a place that hasn't been beaten down by their local team losing and being considered a joke. So, basically, that leaves us, Texas State, and UTEP to go after the rest.

I know that everyone hates that we are rated so low, but nobody cares about a new stadium if you aren't any good when playing in it. People will play in Monroe, Louisiana or Ruston, Louisiana only because they believe that they will be a part of a winner--of which, both schools have completely surpassed us in the last decade or so. Nobody cares if you are close to home if it means you are playing in front of 5000 real people on a cold Saturday in November against Directional Airport University between two bad teams. Our ONLY path forward is simply to hope and pray Littrell can do the Johnny Jones Plan in football--win with lower rated players and transfer players, string a couple of winning season together, then see if the TX HS coaches and parents will start considering UNT more seriously for their recruits. Otherwise, we ain't getting any better than what we just saw, a 5 win season that by UNT standards is great, since it represents only the 8th time in 22 FBS seasons where we won 5 or more games, but it just illustrates the absolute suckitude we have managed to build up since then, which has shown an exact total of 4 winning seasons during that timframe, since 1995. UTSA doesn't deal with that kind of anvil around the neck that we carry every day. Again, we have to depend completely on Littrell and Company, like we eventually saw for just a season or two with Darrell Dickey, to produce results, because if they cannot, it continues to perpetuate the reality that this place is damn near impossible to recruit to unless you have a name coach that TX HS coaches have hear of and somewhat trust, as we saw with Todd Dodge.

Frank Wilson was the lead recruiter for LSU--he is known at every high school in Texas...when UTSA hired him, of course they gave him the time of day. We didn't do that--we did the exact opposite, actually, in hiring a guy in Littrell with no ties to Texas HS coaches, but a great offensive mind. Nobody should even remotely be surprised that Wilson and staff are recruiting kids at a high level to a place with a solid G5 following, that lures attractive opponents to town for games, and has no losing and apathy to get out from underneath. Littrell isn't so fortunate, but I'm gonna assume he knew this when he took the job, unlike DMac, who looked at us as a USF starter kit because of our location, only to see that his positivity about North Texas wasn't getting bought by anyone at Texas HS locker rooms when being compared to most of our peers. Littrell knows the apathy, the history, the losing, the lack of respect, etc...and he knows that he has to change this over time, even if it means that he is starting from behind again when going out on the recruiting trail. SOme of you guys are just flat out expecting him to make this major reputational transformation with the college football world for our alma mater. It doesn't work that way--and it never has.

I absolutely love this post and it is fully 100% correct. If I was paid every time someone told me "UNT has a football program?" here in Houston (not as an insult, general surprise) I'd be a rich man. My boss was stunned to realize that we had been playing football for longer than UTSA and he's a big Gator fan. This is the reality and we won't fix this reality overnight.

YES. ULM is viewed better than us.

Right now, Littrell will have to win with what he can get and I trust him to do that, just like I trust Wren to get us acting like a big time program.

GrandGreen · January 30, 2017

59 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Except Dickey got fired halfway through that second season. So that same AD that kept bringing coaches like Dodge and Benford back had a super quick trigger finger on Dickey. Could DD have turned the program back around once his health issues were taken care of? Maybe, maybe not. I do know that the winningest coach in recent history had a boss that couldn't wait to get rid of him, and then never got close to hiring a coach that good again.

And by the fact that before him no had one guided North Texas to a 1A/FBS winning record since 1980.

Can you please point me to any other days I should have that syndrome for? Outside of Dickey, we haven't had back to back winning season since the days color television was the exciting new fad.

I know I said on the board that he deserved another year, but can't find it on the board, this is the earliest defense I have found so far:

DD ran all over RV when he was winning, no excuse for RV; but winning football coaches tend to get away with a lot. When they stop winning not so much. I assume you know that RV didn't hire DD.

Not sure what "syndrome for" means, but there is no doubt that DD has outperformed all NT coaches since returning to FB football. I don't think Dickey, McCarney or Dodge deserved another second of coaching at NT. Dodge should have never been hired, McCarney should never have been given a contract extension and Dickey did everything he could to get fired.

Edited January 30, 2017 by GrandGreen

Travis · January 30, 2017

2 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

DD ran all over RV when he was winning, no excuse for RV; but winning football coaches tend to get away with a lot. When they stop winning not so much. I assume you know that RV didn't hire DD.

Not sure what syndrome for means, but there is no doubt that DD has outperformed all NT coaches since returning to FB football. I don't think Dickey, McCarney or Dodge deserves another second of coaching at NT. Dodge should have never been hired, McCarney should never have been given a contract extension and Dickey did everything he could to get fired.

Good old day syndrome is when you rewrite the past. I have heard more positive regard for DD this past 6 months then I ever did the last few years he was here. Most people wanted him gone because he was so frustrating. He did well in a weak league. Just because DD faired better than his successors doesn't mean that he should have stayed. It only means that RV made crappy replacements. The sentiment on the board was quite strong in wanting him gone then and I didn't blame them at the time... and I don't blame them now. Nor, do I rewrite things after seeing the crappy successors. I fault RV for the hires he made, not the one he fired.

UNT90 · January 30, 2017

1 hour ago, meanrob said:

Maybe you, but not me.

I wasn't paying attention back then

meanrob · January 30, 2017

11 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I wasn't paying attention back then

This isn't a criticism just a statement- could've used your (and others) outrage about 2004. Started going sideways about then.

19 minutes ago, Travis said:

Good old day syndrome is when you rewrite the past. I have heard more positive regard for DD this past 6 months then I ever did the last few years he was here. Most people wanted him gone because he was so frustrating. He did well in a weak league. Just because DD faired better than his successors doesn't mean that he should have stayed. It only means that RV made crappy replacements. The sentiment on the board was quite strong in wanting him gone then and I didn't blame them at the time... and I don't blame them now. Nor, do I rewrite things after seeing the crappy successors. I fault RV for the hires he made, not the one he fired.

Do I think DD went off the reservation at the end? Yep. I also know his assistants were woefully paid and the good, young ones jumped shipped as soon as another offer came.

I can't defend a lot of what DD did at the end but I said it then and still believe it. If you would have given me a choice, I would have sent RV packing over DD. Not even close.

UNT90 · January 30, 2017

2 minutes ago, meanrob said:

This isn't a criticism just a statement- could've used your (and others) outrage about 2004. Started going sideways about then.

No doubt, and I don't take it as a criticism at all. I got re-interested in 2008. Funny thing is, finding this board had a lot to do with it. Amazingly, friends became uninterested when I started taking about UNT athletics. I had no idea anyone cared until stumbling across Harry's site one day.

Some life events also freed up time, specifically nights and weekends, which allowed game attendance and season ticket purchase.

If I knew the frustration it would bring, I wonder if my decisions might have been different. ?

Travis · January 30, 2017

9 minutes ago, meanrob said:

This isn't a criticism just a statement- could've used your (and others) outrage about 2004. Started going sideways about then.

Do I think DD went off the reservation at the end? Yep. I also know his assistants were woefully paid and the good, young ones jumped shipped as soon as another offer came.

I can't defend a lot of what DD did at the end but I said it then and still believe it. If you would have given me a choice, I would have sent RV packing over DD. Not even close.

While I do know many wanted DD gone at that time, i don't recall many wanting RV gone at that time. I think most were still happy with how he changed the game day atmosphere, the build of the athletic center, and we didn't blame him for the vote down of the new student fees for a new stadium.

meanrob · January 30, 2017

Just now, UNT90 said:

No doubt, and I don't take it as a criticism at all. I got re-interested in 2008. Funny thing is, finding this board had a lot to do with it. Amazingly, friends became uninterested when I started taking about UNT athletics. I had no idea anyone cared until stumbling across Harry's site one day.

Some life events also freed up time, specifically nights and weekends, which allowed game attendance and season ticket purchase.

If I knew the frustration it would bring, I wonder if my decisions might have been different. ?

Yeah but the highs are pretty frickin high. A bit of an overstatement but the win at Tech in 98 might be worth most of this.

Caw Caw · January 30, 2017

I'm in the middle of most of the people here. I was graduated UNT in May of 2013, so I only have the history I learned through my time at the daily, and the general interest to go off of. But i'll add my perspective. I wasn't a huge CFB fan in high school. I played for a 3A TAPPS school in Watauga, and I had never heard of UNT as a football team growing up in the DFW area, playing football.

And when you do finally do your homework, barring a couple of bright spots, and a handful of great players, North Texas has a long history of getting its teeth kicked in. I don't believe that because we've been doing it for longer, at a low level, we're more inhibited than say UTSA who has a clean slate. Look at it from a business standpoint, it's easier to sell your brand new/innovated/fresh company than it is to reopen Enron and get the bad taste out of your mouth. I understand our goal should be to be competing with the top ranks of G5, spending what they spend, winning the occasional battle of P5, I just don't understand how that's the immediate expectation in a young head coaches first full year of recruiting. There are a lot of problems with our programs history and lack of success to overcome. The best salesman will of course be able to overcome this with some recruits, and we often do, until Houston/Tulsa/P5 comes along and offers the kid. I want to be at or near the top of the food chain as far as G5 recruiting goes, and I'd love to beat UTSA, La Tech, Houston, SMU at every turn, but we have to take some steps to get there.

We know momentum is a huge part of the game of football, why don't we expect it to play a part in our recruiting success. Yes, we've taken steps forward in a lot of needed areas, but people are still watching Litrell's ship to see if it's going to sink. @Harry linked an article to the OU fan boards where the sooner fans lamented the death of Litrell's career for even taking this job. That is how we are viewed in CFB. Not as some young upstart (UTSA) or a lower conference power (LaTech/WKU), we're a last resort. I think winning with less is what it will take to start turning things around. A good match up, an upset, etc. I understand that Litrell is a talented offensive coach and still needs the players to execute that vision, but this isn't a resolution after one five-win season.

Once we accept that and move on, I think we'll be better for it. We are going to have to hope, and not blindly, that these coaches are evaluating and developing lesser sought after kids to a level competitive to our conference. Coaches at all levels miss on kids, it's part of the game, but the position we are in, we don't have a ton of choice. There will be a talent pool development issues and we will hit a wall with the talent level, but let's not pretend if we would have played with a few less penalties, or other big dumb mistakes we couldn't have had an even better year. We saw our line improve a lot towards the end, especially in the bowl game. These coaches are punching outside of their weight class.

We are adding blue shirts so that these coaches aren't playing with 2/3rds of the scholarship players other schools are. There is risk involved, but if these kids are competitors, more players will drive some towards the top and push them to reach their potential. Yes, we will have "wasted" scholarships, and guys who don't deliver what we hoped for, it's all part of it. We have a hard working staff who is doing everything they can to help us succeed. And in another 3 years we'll really be able to evaluate how well the hire was, but until then, our own negativity isn't going to boost our perception to the outside world. We know players, recruits, parents, etc. all read these boards. Our message should be that we want to succeed here, and we are putting all the tools in place. We do, at some point, have to recognize where we sit and trust the process.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Caw Caw

AustinFromUNT · January 30, 2017

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

Until the UNT 17 told RV the were buying out DMac, this point above was dead-on for decades. We basically went from quarter-assing it until we started to half-ass it by building a new stadium and increase funding for the program. After the DMac firing and subsequent releasing of RV, I think we are about 3/4s of the way towards running a real FBS AD--which means we are still lacking 25% of being where other G5s are in this region.

Littrell is a solid x's and o's coach. Great offensive mind. But what we have never known is if a guy who has been coaching only at P5s could really make a dent with TX HS coaches and parents here at UNT, a place where a local HS coach recently told a client of mine, "UNT is still UNT--the kids want to go somewhere that is known for more than just losing and nobody really caring." That is a gut-punch to alums like me, but I get it. Like it or not, kids know about SMU and Rice, from their history to their degree value in the state. Kids know about UH and La Tech being solid programs at the G5 level. They know UTSA plays big name opponents in San Antonio EVERY YEAR and are sold on building something there in the Alamo City, a place that hasn't been beaten down by their local team losing and being considered a joke. So, basically, that leaves us, Texas State, and UTEP to go after the rest.

I know that everyone hates that we are rated so low, but nobody cares about a new stadium if you aren't any good when playing in it. People will play in Monroe, Louisiana or Ruston, Louisiana only because they believe that they will be a part of a winner--of which, both schools have completely surpassed us in the last decade or so. Nobody cares if you are close to home if it means you are playing in front of 5000 real people on a cold Saturday in November against Directional Airport University between two bad teams. Our ONLY path forward is simply to hope and pray Littrell can do the Johnny Jones Plan in football--win with lower rated players and transfer players, string a couple of winning season together, then see if the TX HS coaches and parents will start considering UNT more seriously for their recruits. Otherwise, we ain't getting any better than what we just saw, a 5 win season that by UNT standards is great, since it represents only the 8th time in 22 FBS seasons where we won 5 or more games, but it just illustrates the absolute suckitude we have managed to build up since then, which has shown an exact total of 4 winning seasons during that timframe, since 1995. UTSA doesn't deal with that kind of anvil around the neck that we carry every day. Again, we have to depend completely on Littrell and Company, like we eventually saw for just a season or two with Darrell Dickey, to produce results, because if they cannot, it continues to perpetuate the reality that this place is damn near impossible to recruit to unless you have a name coach that TX HS coaches have hear of and somewhat trust, as we saw with Todd Dodge.

Frank Wilson was the lead recruiter for LSU--he is known at every high school in Texas...when UTSA hired him, of course they gave him the time of day. We didn't do that--we did the exact opposite, actually, in hiring a guy in Littrell with no ties to Texas HS coaches, but a great offensive mind. Nobody should even remotely be surprised that Wilson and staff are recruiting kids at a high level to a place with a solid G5 following, that lures attractive opponents to town for games, and has no losing and apathy to get out from underneath. Littrell isn't so fortunate, but I'm gonna assume he knew this when he took the job, unlike DMac, who looked at us as a USF starter kit because of our location, only to see that his positivity about North Texas wasn't getting bought by anyone at Texas HS locker rooms when being compared to most of our peers. Littrell knows the apathy, the history, the losing, the lack of respect, etc...and he knows that he has to change this over time, even if it means that he is starting from behind again when going out on the recruiting trail. SOme of you guys are just flat out expecting him to make this major reputational transformation with the college football world for our alma mater. It doesn't work that way--and it never has.

I gave this 1.5 million likes.

UNT90 · January 31, 2017

28 minutes ago, meanrob said:

Yeah but the highs are pretty frickin high. A bit of an overstatement but the win at Tech in 98 might be worth most of this.

Ya, the NCAA 1st round in Oklahoma City was awesome, as was Hot Springs the one time I got there during JJ's last year. And of course the HOD bowl on New Year's Day in 2014 was great. Also the trip up to watch the Tulsa game on Thanksgiving weekend was awesome.

its just really frustrating to watch this administration move at a snail's pace with every problem in athletics. You knew there was a problem in 2004, yet RV got 12 more years to destroy the programs. Everyone has known for 4 years Benford couldn't coach, and he is STILL here.

Really tiring watching a university not care about one of its departments...

Edited January 31, 2017 by UNT90

meanrob · January 31, 2017

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

Ya, the NCAA 1st round in Oklahoma City was awesome, as was Hot Springs the one time I got there during JJ's last year. And of course the HOD bowl on New Year's Day in 2014 was great.

its just really frustrating to watch this administration move at a snail's pace with every problem in athletics. You knew there was a problem in 2004, yet RV got 12 more years to destroy the programs. Everyone has known for 4 years Benford couldn't coach, and he is STILL here.

Really tiring watching a university not care about one of its departments...

That's the one big difference between you and me. I believe it's only minimally related to caring. I think most in the administration just didn't know any better or were smoke screened by RV's bs. Maybe that's just a matter of semantics but I think our poor performance is more due to lousy hiring than caring or money. If we were constantly going .500 and refused to make the investment to get better, then I'd say we didn't care. But we've been so bad it's been more about lousy leadership/management than apathy.

Cerebus · January 31, 2017

49 minutes ago, Travis said:

he changed the game day atmosphere

Truly a positive, but it took a real act of insanity to ban tailgating in the first place.

50 minutes ago, Travis said:

the build of the athletic center

You mean the AC that sat half finished for six months? I wonder what happened there... :ninja:

51 minutes ago, Travis said:

we didn't blame him for the vote down of the new student fees for a new stadium

We sure did at the time, in fact the main thing most of the board wanted to see wanted to see when the second campaign started was for the AD to stay far away.

The consultant report didn't touch half of what happened. I truly believe at some point they had to make a conscious decision to stop going down the rabbit hole. Maybe when people have retired from NT or other places the whole story will come out.

Speaking of that, anyone remember there was supposed to be other dorms where Athletics and Housing teamed up? I wonder why that never happened again... :ninja:

MeanGreen_MBA · January 31, 2017

55 minutes ago, Caw Caw said:

I'm in the middle of most of the people here. I was graduated UNT in May of 2013, so I only have the history I learned through my time at the daily, and the general interest to go off of. But i'll add my perspective. I wasn't a huge CFB fan in high school. I played for a 3A TAPPS school in Watauga, and I had never heard of UNT as a football team growing up in the DFW area, playing football.

And when you do finally do your homework, barring a couple of bright spots, and a handful of great players, North Texas has a long history of getting its teeth kicked in. I don't believe that because we've been doing it for longer, at a low level, we're more inhibited than say UTSA who has a clean slate. Look at it from a business standpoint, it's easier to sell your brand new/innovated/fresh company than it is to reopen Enron and get the bad taste out of your mouth. I understand our goal should be to be competing with the top ranks of G5, spending what they spend, winning the occasional battle of P5, I just don't understand how that's the immediate expectation in a young head coaches first full year of recruiting. There are a lot of problems with our programs history and lack of success to overcome. The best salesman will of course be able to overcome this with some recruits, and we often do, until Houston/Tulsa/P5 comes along and offers the kid. I want to be at or near the top of the food chain as far as G5 recruiting goes, and I'd love to beat UTSA, La Tech, Houston, SMU at every turn, but we have to take some steps to get there.

We know momentum is a huge part of the game of football, why don't we expect it to play a part in our recruiting success. Yes, we've taken steps forward in a lot of needed areas, but people are still watching Litrell's ship to see if it's going to sink. @Harry linked an article to the OU fan boards where the sooner fans lamented the death of Litrell's career for even taking this job. That is how we are viewed in CFB. Not as some young upstart (UTSA) or a lower conference power (LaTech/WKU), we're a last resort. I think winning with less is what it will take to start turning things around. A good match up, an upset, etc. I understand that Litrell is a talented offensive coach and still needs the players to execute that vision, but this isn't a resolution after one five-win season.

Once we accept that and move on, I think we'll be better for it. We are going to have to hope, and not blindly, that these coaches are evaluating and developing lesser sought after kids to a level competitive to our conference. Coaches at all levels miss on kids, it's part of the game, but the position we are in, we don't have a ton of choice. There will be a talent pool development issues and we will hit a wall with the talent level, but let's not pretend if we would have played with a few less penalties, or other big dumb mistakes we couldn't have had an even better year. We saw our line improve a lot towards the end, especially in the bowl game. These coaches are punching outside of their weight class.

We are adding blue shirts so that these coaches aren't playing with 2/3rds of the scholarship players other schools are. There is risk involved, but if these kids are competitors, more players will drive some towards the top and push them to reach their potential. Yes, we will have "wasted" scholarships, and guys who don't deliver what we hoped for, it's all part of it. We have a hard working staff who is doing everything they can to help us succeed. And in another 3 years we'll really be able to evaluate how well the hire was, but until then, our own negativity isn't going to boost our perception to the outside world. We know players, recruits, parents, etc. all read these boards. Our message should be that we want to succeed here, and we are putting all the tools in place. We do, at some point, have to recognize where we sit and trust the process.

Nice...I knew I liked you.

UNT90 · January 31, 2017

1 hour ago, Caw Caw said:

I'm in the middle of most of the people here. I was graduated UNT in May of 2013, so I only have the history I learned through my time at the daily, and the general interest to go off of. But i'll add my perspective. I wasn't a huge CFB fan in high school. I played for a 3A TAPPS school in Watauga, and I had never heard of UNT as a football team growing up in the DFW area, playing football.

And when you do finally do your homework, barring a couple of bright spots, and a handful of great players, North Texas has a long history of getting its teeth kicked in. I don't believe that because we've been doing it for longer, at a low level, we're more inhibited than say UTSA who has a clean slate. Look at it from a business standpoint, it's easier to sell your brand new/innovated/fresh company than it is to reopen Enron and get the bad taste out of your mouth. I understand our goal should be to be competing with the top ranks of G5, spending what they spend, winning the occasional battle of P5, I just don't understand how that's the immediate expectation in a young head coaches first full year of recruiting. There are a lot of problems with our programs history and lack of success to overcome. The best salesman will of course be able to overcome this with some recruits, and we often do, until Houston/Tulsa/P5 comes along and offers the kid. I want to be at or near the top of the food chain as far as G5 recruiting goes, and I'd love to beat UTSA, La Tech, Houston, SMU at every turn, but we have to take some steps to get there.

We know momentum is a huge part of the game of football, why don't we expect it to play a part in our recruiting success. Yes, we've taken steps forward in a lot of needed areas, but people are still watching Litrell's ship to see if it's going to sink. @Harry linked an article to the OU fan boards where the sooner fans lamented the death of Litrell's career for even taking this job. That is how we are viewed in CFB. Not as some young upstart (UTSA) or a lower conference power (LaTech/WKU), we're a last resort. I think winning with less is what it will take to start turning things around. A good match up, an upset, etc. I understand that Litrell is a talented offensive coach and still needs the players to execute that vision, but this isn't a resolution after one five-win season.

Once we accept that and move on, I think we'll be better for it. We are going to have to hope, and not blindly, that these coaches are evaluating and developing lesser sought after kids to a level competitive to our conference. Coaches at all levels miss on kids, it's part of the game, but the position we are in, we don't have a ton of choice. There will be a talent pool development issues and we will hit a wall with the talent level, but let's not pretend if we would have played with a few less penalties, or other big dumb mistakes we couldn't have had an even better year. We saw our line improve a lot towards the end, especially in the bowl game. These coaches are punching outside of their weight class.

We are adding blue shirts so that these coaches aren't playing with 2/3rds of the scholarship players other schools are. There is risk involved, but if these kids are competitors, more players will drive some towards the top and push them to reach their potential. Yes, we will have "wasted" scholarships, and guys who don't deliver what we hoped for, it's all part of it. We have a hard working staff who is doing everything they can to help us succeed. And in another 3 years we'll really be able to evaluate how well the hire was, but until then, our own negativity isn't going to boost our perception to the outside world. We know players, recruits, parents, etc. all read these boards. Our message should be that we want to succeed here, and we are putting all the tools in place. We do, at some point, have to recognize where we sit and trust the process.

As you say yourself, you knew nothing about UNT. I think that is most high school kids. They don't know the history of suck.

What you can't explain is how UTSA is not only beating out the Houstons for recruits, but are beating some P5s, also.

Look, it doesn't have to do with history or any of that crap, it has to do with the staff building personal relationships with kids. That (and the school having the educational program the kid wants, in some cases) is all that matters. UNT is getting outrecruited. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with what happened in 2004 or 1984, it has to do with what is happening right now. And, absent shocking developments over the next 3 days, we are losing in building those relationships.

correcamino · January 31, 2017

Caw Caw · January 31, 2017

15 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

As you say yourself, you knew nothing about UNT. I think that is most high school kids. They don't know the history of suck.

What you can't explain is how UTSA is not only beating out the Houstons for recruits, but are beating some P5s, also.

Look, it doesn't have to do with history or any of that crap, it has to do with the staff building personal relationships with kids. That (and the school having the educational program the kid wants, in some cases) is all that matters. UNT is getting outrecruited. Plain and simple. It has nothing to do with what happened in 2004 or 1984, it has to do with what is happening right now. And, absent shocking developments over the next 3 days, we are losing in building those relationships.

So you genuinely don't think, if i've never heard of UNT, i'm not going to assume they are D1. Even if they are D1 i'm not going to assume they are in the same class as Nebraska, Penn State, USC, Texas, Alabama, Florida, Oregon, etc? We are absolutely hurt by not being visible. Because then, it's the information age, and people have to do their homework. When they do their homework a lot of it is negative. This is the information age, not some blank slate 1950s era recruiting. There is a reason TCU, Baylor, Houston, Boise State's recruiting has gotten better AFTER they started winning. When Dickey was recruiting well, we were still beating Tech, Baylor and scaring OU, etc. We aren't there anymore.

There are coaches who out kick there coverage, like UTSA's head coach. It is possible. You're also neglecting to mention UTSA has lost commitments to Houston this year as well as a running back who just flipped to TX State. Remember, LSU does it's homework and offers 3/4 years in advance, much like Litrell, we'll see if he can take and sustain the momentum in four years. Coaching isn't just a snapshot of one recruiting cycle, there are many facets.

He's not a savior, he's a good recruiter. He also is still in the years where he is pulling from a long list of history and research and relationships backed by 5 years of recruiting the DFW for LSU. You don't think those long term relationships built up from his time there affect his perception? We know sales in the modern marketplace is about relationships, he has them and we are building them. Again, i'm not saying we can't be doing better, i'm saying give it time. Litrell has had a year and a half in the state, he's been all over the country before that, and he definitely didn't have the same notoriety, as an offensive mind, absolutely, he put up gaudy numbers at Indiana and UNC, but not as a recruiter.

UNT90 · January 31, 2017

16 minutes ago, Caw Caw said:

So you genuinely don't think, if i've never heard of UNT, i'm not going to assume they are D1. Even if they are D1 i'm not going to assume they are in the same class as Nebraska, Penn State, USC, Texas, Alabama, Florida, Oregon, etc? We are absolutely hurt by not being visible. Because then, it's the information age, and people have to do their homework. When they do their homework a lot of it is negative. This is the information age, not some blank slate 1950s era recruiting. There is a reason TCU, Baylor, Houston, Boise State's recruiting has gotten better AFTER they started winning. When Dickey was recruiting well, we were still beating Tech, Baylor and scaring OU, etc. We aren't there anymore.

There are coaches who out kick there coverage, like UTSA's head coach. It is possible. You're also neglecting to mention UTSA has lost commitments to Houston this year as well as a running back who just flipped to TX State. Remember, LSU does it's homework and offers 3/4 years in advance, much like Litrell, we'll see if he can take and sustain the momentum in four years. Coaching isn't just a snapshot of one recruiting cycle, there are many facets.

He's not a savior, he's a good recruiter. He also is still in the years where he is pulling from a long list of history and research and relationships backed by 5 years of recruiting the DFW for LSU. You don't think those long term relationships built up from his time there affect his perception? We know sales in the modern marketplace is about relationships, he has them and we are building them. Again, i'm not saying we can't be doing better, i'm saying give it time. Litrell has had a year and a half in the state, he's been all over the country before that, and he definitely didn't have the same notoriety, as an offensive mind, absolutely, he put up gaudy numbers at Indiana and UNC, but not as a recruiter.

Had you heard of UTSA? Texas St?

Most kids only hear about the P5s. That's life. If the kid does research, at least we have conference titles for them to discover. UTSA doesn't have one. Hell, they don't have a stadium.

Look, we are behind UAB in recruiting right now. A team that was so bad, it's program was disbanded. So if kids are researching, how do you think THAT looks to them? Yet there they are, ahead of UNT. And they had the 2nd ranked class in conference last year before playing a game again.

So no, I don't agree it's history. It's been the wrong hires. I hope what you believe about Littrell and staff is true. Early signs are not promising, and to ignore it is to do the time honored tradition of the UNT fan of stocking your head firmly in the sand.

Ryan Munthe · January 31, 2017

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

Had you heard of UTSA? Texas St?

Most kids only hear about the P5s. That's life. If the kid does research, at least we have conference titles for them to discover. UTSA doesn't have one. Hell, they don't have a stadium.

Look, we are behind UAB in recruiting right now. A team that was so bad, it's program was disbanded. So if kids are researching, how do you think THAT looks to them? Yet there they are, ahead of UNT. And they had the 2nd ranked class in conference last year before playing a game again.

So no, I don't agree it's history. It's been the wrong hires. I hope what you believe about Littrell and staff is true. Early signs are not promising, and to ignore it is to do the time honored tradition of the UNT fan of stocking your head firmly in the sand.

People perceive UTSA higher than us because of their initial buzz and scheduling. Nobody gives a damn about championships from the 70s. UTSA plays in downtown San Antonio, averages 30K, has their gear all around town, draws big name OOC opponents, etc. They're EASY to sell.

These recruits don't care about the MVC and probably don't even know it used to be a football conference.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ryan Munthe

UNT90 · January 31, 2017

Just now, Ryan Munthe said:

People perceive UTSA higher than us because of their initial buzz and scheduling. Nobody gives a damn about championships from the 70s.

No one remembers "initial buzz" from 6 years ago and no recruit gives a damn about their past scheduling.

Although seeing you use the scheduling argument is... interesting.

Ryan Munthe · January 31, 2017

6 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

No one remembers "initial buzz" from 6 years ago and no recruit gives a damn about their past scheduling.

Although seeing you use the scheduling argument is... interesting.

You can't say nobody remembers their initial buzz when they still draw better numbers.

I've never argued we should schedule cream puffs at home, I've just suggested it's what the big boys do...and what Boise did. I did say be careful what you wish for. I tend to lean that way, or the scheduling of low-Tier P5s that draw well...like...Tech.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Ryan Munthe

UNT90 · January 31, 2017

2 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

You can't say nobody remembers their initial buzz when they still draw better numbers.

I've never argued we should schedule cream puffs at home, I've just suggested it's what the big boys do...and what Boise did. I tend to lean that way, or the scheduling of low-Tier P5s that draw well...like...Tech.

I think recruits look at who THEY will be playing in the future (if they look at all). UTSA is kicking our ass there, also.

Ryan Munthe · January 31, 2017

13 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I think recruits look at who THEY will be playing in the future (if they look at all). UTSA is kicking our ass there, also.

They absolutely are, if you think that scheduling P5s is a good way to build your program. I'm not saying either way, because I see both sides.

GOMG2013 · January 31, 2017

47 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I think recruits look at who THEY will be playing in the future (if they look at all). UTSA is kicking our ass there, also.

The future schedule is a big part of the recruiting presentation.

TreeFiddy · January 31, 2017

ut-san antonio is about to get to the end of their initial entry to FBS schedule. The definitely did it right by signing several high profile opponents as they entered FBS. This has no doubt helped in their recruiting. After next year, it will be interesting to see how they schedule. In both 2019 and 2020 they only have 2 OOC games on the road. They are going to need to find 2 home games each year or be faced with the reality of playing 5 home games.