MGB: Sunday night recruiting tidbit

[GrandGreen]

42 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Actually, it was B. Gooding who said, "Seth Littrell has all but proven he can't do that. If he can't do that, he can't win here (or anywhere)."   Sounds like Mr. Gooding has made up his mind about Coach Littrell after a single year.  Of course, Ben isn't typical.

I think part of the reason this discussion bothers me so much is that it reminds me of the foolishness that this board spewed at Coach Dickey.  Even after 4 bowls and 4 Coach of the Year awards there were some who thought he ran too many draws and ought to be fired.

Off the subject, but DD should have definitely been fired.   In fact, he just about fired himself.  It had nothing to do with the plays he called or his great Belt run.   It had to his total disrespect for the program, school, fans and the fact that the program was spiraling downward.  

Gooding can speak for himself, but I interpret that quote differently from any demand that Littrell be terminated.    

[Aldo]

27 minutes ago, Eagle-96 said:

Why is that a good thing? Neither of those players ever set foot on a football field for us. You might as well say it would be great to sign Superman because he will play as many games for UNT as those two.

I think @TreeFiddy is saying to blueshirt a Will Johnson level talent if they turn out not to qualify.

Although, is that possible? Ie, why didn't we blueshirt Will Johnson after learning he didn't qualify?

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

Actually, it was B. Gooding who said, "Seth Littrell has all but proven he can't do that. If he can't do that, he can't win here (or anywhere)."   Sounds like Mr. Gooding has made up his mind about Coach Littrell after a single year.  Of course, Ben isn't typical.

I think part of the reason this discussion bothers me so much is that it reminds me of the foolishness that this board spewed at Coach Dickey.  Even after 4 bowls and 4 Coach of the Year awards there were some who thought he ran too many draws and ought to be fired.

Except that's not what Ben said at all. Everyone knows Littrell is here for at least three years, and with the Benford Precedent firmly in place, probably more than that.

We aren't happy with crappy recruiting. It's not acceptable, be it year one or year 5. You don't seem to have an issue with it, but you rarely have an issue with anything, so it's not surprising.

We can be pissed without demanding a resignation, you know.

[GTWT]

11 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Off the subject, but DD should have definitely been fired.   In fact, he just about fired himself.  It had nothing to do with the plays he called or his great Belt run.   It had to his total disrespect for the program, school, fans and the fact that the program was spiraling downward.  

 

It's really not off topic - the same processes that resulted in Coach Dickey being fired are already working now.  Coach Dickey pissed off a lot of fans & he pissed off the new AD - too bad.  He won & his players respected him.  That's enough for me.

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, wardly said:

 

We stand to finish 11th in recruiting in a 14 team conference. With a composite rating of 100.90, we would be 7th in the MWC,8th in the MAC,8th in the SBC, and next to last in the AAC.You just can't put enough lipstick on this pig to make it acceptable. If Baker and Littrell stand up before alumni on Wednesday night at Stadium Club and say they are pleased with their first recruiting class[which I bet they do], then we have a serious problem.I doubt I will attend as my bullshit meter is at an all time high.

I mean, what else are they going to say? They can't slap the kids in the face. Just realize they will say it because they have to and it means very little.,

[Green Lantern]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

Actually, it was B. Gooding who said, "Seth Littrell has all but proven he can't do that. If he can't do that, he can't win here (or anywhere)."   Sounds like Mr. Gooding has made up his mind about Coach Littrell after a single year.  Of course, Ben isn't typical.

I think part of the reason this discussion bothers me so much is that it reminds me of the foolishness that this board spewed at Coach Dickey.  Even after 4 bowls and 4 Coach of the Year awards there were some who thought he ran too many draws and ought to be fired.

Right, but you cherry picked Ben's comment, while acknowledging that he definitely runs hot and isn't a typical response, to infer that a group of our fans are calling for Littrell's head. That's not true or fair. I think most fans are happy with the on field progress from last year for the most part.

It's a legitimate conversation for fans to be having related to where we stand in the national, G5 and Conference USA recruiting rankings. I think most looking at this objectively would say it's not promising so far. Like it or not, recruiting is a huge part of the coaching equation in college football. Concern from the fan base is warranted.

 

 

[TreeFiddy]

17 minutes ago, Aldo said:

I think @TreeFiddy is saying to blueshirt a Will Johnson level talent if they turn out not to qualify.

Although, is that possible? Ie, why didn't we blueshirt Will Johnson after learning he didn't qualify?

I don't think we had the choice to blue shirt Will Johnson because he was a recruited player.  Same with Raveon.  

I was really just trying to say that I have a feeling the coaches are on a couple of guys that may be in similar situations as Johnson and Hoston were last year.  I was not trying to convince anyone that it was a good or bad strategy, just a feeling that the coaches are going to try it again this year.

[UNT90]

6 minutes ago, GTWT said:

It's really not off topic - the same processes that resulted in Coach Dickey being fired are already working now.  Coach Dickey pissed off a lot of fans & he pissed off the new AD - too bad.  He won & his players respected him.  That's enough for me.

Not to mention, DD was proven right. And it only took the UNT administration 10 years to figure it out.

DD had the Hattiesburg Hustler's number before any of us. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

2 minutes ago, TreeFiddy said:

I don't think we had the choice to blue shirt Will Johnson because he was a recruited player.  Same with Raveon.  

I was really just trying to say that I have a feeling the coaches are on a couple of guys that may be in similar situations as Johnson and Hoston were last year.  I was not trying to convince anyone that it was a good or bad strategy, just a feeling that the coaches are going to try it again this year.

Speaking of Hoston...  last we heard of him, he was in Denton, enrolled in classes trying to get eligible to possibly play this upcoming season.    Does anyone know if he is actually doing this?

[Ben Gooding]

A G5 program consistently needs 10 three star recruits at positions of need to be competitive on a year to year basis. I'm not demanding anything and I'm not insinuating anything. All I'm saying is that we are not recruiting at the level needed to create and then sustain success. There is no other way, with our history, to view it. We are NOT a developmental program. We are a program that has (rarely) enjoyed success a few years AFTER pulling in what is above average classes in our given conference at the time and well above the norm at UNT. i.e. 2013, Sunbelt run after that 2001(?) class. We are not recruiting at the level of either of those classes. We are recruiting slightly better than the 2012 class (1-11 senior class). We are also setting ourselves up for another subpar finish next year. We are digging a hole that will take the 2019 class to get us out of when they are classroom juniors, given it's a decent class and we don't work magic in two days. The writing on the wall is yet a little fuzzy, but it's starting to rear its head. 

[GTWT]

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

Not to mention, DD was proven right. And it only took the UNT administration 10 years to figure it out.

DD had the Hattiesburg Hustler's number before any of us. 

You & I have disagreed a lot - especially about RV, but when it comes to RV's treatment of DD, you have been right-on.

[UNT90]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Speaking of Hoston...  last we heard of him, he was in Denton, enrolled in classes trying to get eligible to possibly play this upcoming season.    Does anyone know if he is actually doing this?

24 and I have a club seat wager on him taking the field this year. 24 thinks he will.

[GreenMachine]

2 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Speaking of Hoston...  last we heard of him, he was in Denton, enrolled in classes trying to get eligible to possibly play this upcoming season.    Does anyone know if he is actually doing this?

He used to tweet a lot about working out and getting ready for football. Haven't seen anything from him in awhile.

[Cerebus]

14 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

DD had the Hattiesburg Hustler's number before any of us. 

Well, some of us thought the wrong person was let go the day The Buick™ was fired...

[UNT90]

2 minutes ago, GTWT said:

You & I have disagreed a lot - especially about RV, but when it comes to RV's treatment of DD, you have been right-on.

You think we are arguing, I think we are finally communicating.

 

[wardly]

I don't expect them to say that their baby is ugly, but  I hope we don't get any more" it's really hard to recruit at North Texas". What I would hope to get is an honest assessment of our recruiting, the lack of impact with a HOD appearance, and where the program stands today. In other words,"Where are we now,where are going, and how are we going to get there." I think you can do that without disparaging anyone.I also think we should expect this .

[AustinFromUNT]

41 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Speaking of Hoston...  last we heard of him, he was in Denton, enrolled in classes trying to get eligible to possibly play this upcoming season.    Does anyone know if he is actually doing this?

His pinned tweet is still of him signing his LOI to play here & his bio still says he is a DE here, but he wasn't eligible last season.

*Whispers into the void* Imagine having both English and Hoston on the D-Line and our defense improving even further this year

[EagleMBA]

24 minutes ago, AustinFromUNT said:

His pinned tweet is still of him signing his LOI to play here & his bio still says he is a DE here, but he wasn't eligible last season.

*Whispers into the void* Imagine having both English and Hoston on the D-Line and our defense improving even further this year

[GrandGreen]

1 hour ago, GTWT said:

It's really not off topic - the same processes that resulted in Coach Dickey being fired are already working now.  Coach Dickey pissed off a lot of fans & he pissed off the new AD - too bad.  He won & his players respected him.  That's enough for me.

You do know that DD was 2-9 and 3-9 his last two years.   DD was in a lot of ways a good coach, but he was his own worst enemy.  I am not sure that many people can defy  their boss and publicly state he had the worse job in America and keep their jobs.    DD was actually successful with that approach until he stopped winning.   Any good AD should have been able to deal with the situation, but NT had RV.  

DD had a great run in the early Belt and deserves a lot of credit for that.   I think his reputation has been greatly enhanced by the failure of both Dodge and McCarney at NT, but if you were as attuned to the NT situation as you seem to indicate; you had to know it was time for a change.    

 

[Travis]

6 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

You do know that DD was 2-9 and 3-9 his last two years.   DD was in a lot of ways a good coach, but he was his own worst enemy.  I am not sure that many people can defy  their boss and publicly state he had the worse job in America and keep their jobs.    DD was actually successful with that approach until he stopped winning.   Any good AD should have been able to deal with the situation, but NT had RV.  

DD had a great run in the early Belt and deserves a lot of credit for that.   I think his reputation has been greatly enhanced by the failure of both Dodge and McCarney at NT, but if you were as attuned to the NT situation as you seem to indicate; you had to know it was time for a change.    

 

Thank you for not having 'good ol' day' syndrome. I agree with your post completely. And i don't recall many, if anyone, saying differently on this board at the time. 

[meanrob]

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

Not to mention, DD was proven right. And it only took the UNT administration 10 years to figure it out.

DD had the Hattiesburg Hustler's number before any of us. 

Maybe you, but not me. 

[Cerebus]

31 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

You do know that DD was 2-9 and 3-9 his last two years.  

Except Dickey got fired halfway through that second season.  So that same AD that kept bringing coaches like Dodge and Benford back had a super quick trigger finger on Dickey.  Could DD have turned the program back around once his health issues were taken care of?  Maybe, maybe not.  I do know that the winningest coach  in recent history had a boss that couldn't wait to get rid of him, and then never got close to hiring a coach that good again.

31 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I think his reputation has been greatly enhanced by the failure of both Dodge and McCarney at NT,

And by the fact that before him no had one guided North Texas to a 1A/FBS winning record since 1980.

 

23 minutes ago, Travis said:

Thank you for not having 'good ol' day' syndrome.

Can you please point me to any other days I should have that syndrome for?  Outside of Dickey, we haven't had back to back winning season since the days color television was the exciting new fad.

 

23 minutes ago, Travis said:

And i don't recall many, if anyone, saying differently on this board at the time. 

I know I said on the board that he deserved another year, but can't find it on the board, this is the earliest defense I have found so far:

On 12/6/2007 at 10:06 AM, Cerebus said:

Ramon, for as long as there have been people, they have needed a scapegoat to drive out into the desert.

 

Dickey is the current scapegoat for some.

 

[untjim1995]

5 hours ago, Eagle-96 said:

Glad Kuehne pulled back the curtain on what we all thought was going on only to have it confirmed with yet ANOTHER kick to the nards. It was a tough pill to swallow and even tougher knowing what we could have been(the sleeping giant tried to get out of bed in the early oughts bu RV just kept adding blankets to the bed). But hey we do have a whole case full of "Coming In Under Budget" trophies thanks to RV. I know I am proud of those. 

 

Until the UNT 17 told RV the were buying out DMac, this point above was dead-on for decades. We basically went from quarter-assing it until we started to half-ass it by building a new stadium and increase funding for the program. After the DMac firing and subsequent releasing of RV, I think we are about 3/4s of the way towards running a real FBS AD--which means we are still lacking 25% of being where other G5s are in this region.

Littrell is a solid x's and o's coach. Great offensive mind. But what we have never known is if a guy who has been coaching only at P5s could really make a dent with TX HS coaches and parents here at UNT, a place where a local HS coach recently told a client of mine, "UNT is still UNT--the kids want to go somewhere that is known for more than just losing and nobody really caring." That is a gut-punch to alums like me, but I get it. Like it or not, kids know about SMU and Rice, from their history to their degree value in the state. Kids know about UH and La Tech being solid programs at the G5 level. They know UTSA plays big name opponents in San Antonio EVERY YEAR and are sold on building something there in the Alamo City, a place that hasn't been beaten down by their local team losing and being considered a joke. So, basically, that leaves us, Texas State, and UTEP to go after the rest.

I know that everyone hates that we are rated so low, but nobody cares about a new stadium if you aren't any good when playing in it. People will play in Monroe, Louisiana or Ruston, Louisiana only because they believe that they will be a part of a winner--of which, both schools have completely surpassed us in the last decade or so. Nobody cares if you are close to home if it means you are playing in front of 5000 real people on a cold Saturday in November against Directional Airport University between two bad teams. Our ONLY path forward is simply to hope and pray Littrell can do the Johnny Jones Plan in football--win with lower rated players and transfer players, string a couple of winning season together, then see if the TX HS coaches and parents will start considering UNT more seriously for their recruits. Otherwise, we ain't getting any better than what we just saw, a 5 win season that by UNT standards is great, since it represents only the 8th time in 22 FBS seasons where we won 5 or more games, but it just illustrates the absolute suckitude we have managed to build up since then, which has shown an exact total of 4 winning seasons during that timframe, since 1995. UTSA doesn't deal with that kind of anvil around the neck that we carry every day. Again, we have to depend completely on Littrell and Company, like we eventually saw for just a season or two with Darrell Dickey, to produce results, because if they cannot, it continues to perpetuate the reality that this place is damn near impossible to recruit to unless you have a name coach that TX HS coaches have hear of and somewhat trust, as we saw with Todd Dodge.

Frank Wilson was the lead recruiter for LSU--he is known at every high school in Texas...when UTSA hired him, of course they gave him the time of day. We didn't do that--we did the exact opposite, actually, in hiring a guy in Littrell with no ties to Texas HS coaches, but a great offensive mind. Nobody should even remotely be surprised that Wilson and staff are recruiting kids at a high level to a place with a solid G5 following, that lures attractive opponents to town for games, and has no losing and apathy to get out from underneath. Littrell isn't so fortunate, but I'm gonna assume he knew this when he took the job, unlike DMac, who looked at us as a USF starter kit because of our location, only to see that his positivity about North Texas wasn't getting bought by anyone at Texas HS locker rooms when being compared to most of our peers. Littrell knows the apathy, the history, the losing, the lack of respect, etc...and he knows that he has to change this over time, even if it means that he is starting from behind again when going out on the recruiting trail. SOme of you guys are just flat out expecting him to make this major reputational transformation with the college football world for our alma mater. It doesn't work that way--and it never has.

 

[GTWT]

37 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

You do know that DD was 2-9 and 3-9 his last two years.  

 

Many people on GoMeanGreen.com had turned against DD well before those last two years.  It's the nature of UNT fans.  If we ever again become a consistent winner I hope that changes - but probably not.  Negativity is too easy to post.

[Got5onIt]

21 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Except Dickey got fired halfway through that second season.  So that same AD that kept bringing coaches like Dodge and Benford back had a super quick trigger finger on Dickey.  Could DD have turned the program back around once his health issues were taken care of?  Maybe, maybe not.  I do know that the winningest coach  in recent history had a boss that couldn't wait to get rid of him, and then never got close to hiring a coach that good again.

And by the fact that before him no had one guided North Texas to a 1A/FBS winning record since 1980.

 

Can you please point me to any other days I should have that syndrome for?  Outside of Dickey, we haven't had back to back winning season since the days color television was the exciting new fad.

 

I know I said on the board that he deserved another year, but can't find it on the board, this is the earliest defense I have found so far:

 

 

Excellent post. DD deserves a lot more respect for what he accomplished here at NT. I know it's cliche to say it at this point, but the AD was another obstacle he had to take on during his tenure as HC...