Basketball Long Term Problems?

[Mike Jackson]

With the dismal season so far, I wanted take a look at UNT Men's Basketball history.   We have only 3 conference titles in our history.  So I would say this part of the athletic program is more worse than any other athletic program at the school.   Besides getting rid of Benford was else can be done to this program on the right track?  I kind of disagree with Vito's opinion that firing Benford now (midseason )  is a bad idea.   Looking that resumes of coaching staff there are at least 2 I would be interested in giving the reigns to just to try them out.  I would like to see what Todd Shelton could do as head coach for the rest of the season.   Depending on how the team performs under Shelton at least we would know if he is worth keeping around after Benford is dismissed.  Don O'Dowd has an interesting resume also.  Rob Evans has a great resume but is long in the tooth and too close to Benford in philosophy to Benford.  I think they should bring in a young coach and keep the best of the younger assistants on board for continuity.   And I think a big part of evaluation to determine if keeping one then is worth it is to make an interim change at head coach.  What do you guys think.  

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by Mike Jackson

[UNTFan23]

Todd Shelton is Director of Basketball Operations; he's officially not a coach. He may help here and there with some coaching duties but I don't think he's as involved in coaching the players as much as O'Dowd and Anwar certainly are. I certainly don't recall seeing him barking plays or anything like that during a game.

[Army of Dad]

7 hours ago, UNTFan23 said:

Todd Shelton is Director of Basketball Operations; he's officially not a coach. He may help here and there with some coaching duties but I don't think he's as involved in coaching the players as much as O'Dowd and Anwar certainly are. I certainly don't recall seeing him barking plays or anything like that during a game.

Then you sit too far from the bench.

[UNT90]

No. You never, ever dictate who a new coach has to pick for an assistant. Ever. Micromanaging is a recipe for failure. 

Find your next head coach and let him name his staff. Thank the interim coach and send him on his way.

[Cerebus]

Trilli proved you could recruit here.  JJ proved you could win here.  

If we could get someone who could recruit 3/4ths as good as Trilli, and coach 5/4ths as good as JJ, we would win a lot of games.  

[MeanGreen_MBA]

9 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Trilli proved you could recruit here.  JJ proved you could win here.  

If we could get someone who could recruit 3/4ths as good as Trilli, and coach 5/4ths as good as JJ, we would win a lot of games.  

5/4ths???

[Cerebus]

Just now, MeanGreen_MBA said:

5/4ths???

125%  In other words 25% better than JJ.

[Army of Dad]

12 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

125%  In other words 25% better than JJ.

He actually believed Benford would turn it around this year. You might have to post again in 6 months to make sure he gets it.

[Harry]

3 hours ago, Army of Dad said:

He actually believed Benford would turn it around this year. You might have to post again in 6 months to make sure he gets it.

Let's not knock fans who wanted to see the Benford thing turn around.  We all want the same  thing.  Given that we all are on the same page now, we should join together and look towards a brighter future.

[Army of Dad]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

Let's not knock fans who wanted to see the Benford thing turn around.  We all want the same  thing.  Given that we all are on the same page now, we should join together and look towards a brighter future.

Waiting to do what should have been done years ago does nothing to bring us closer to a brighter future. 

[UNT90]

34 minutes ago, Harry said:

Let's not knock fans who wanted to see the Benford thing turn around.  We all want the same  thing.  Given that we all are on the same page now, we should join together and look towards a brighter future.

But we aren't on the same page. You apparently are fine with Benford being allowed to go 0-18 in conference play. I am not.

Thats a pretty stark difference. 

[Mean Green 93-98]

16 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

I think they should bring in a young coach and keep the best of the younger assistants on board for continuity.   

Continuity?  Why would you want any continuity with the failed Benford regime when what we need is an opportunity to start fresh?

[Mike Jackson]

5 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Continuity?  Why would you want any continuity with the failed Benford regime when what we need is an opportunity to start fresh?

Only if you go with a younger coach who wants to keep one of them on board.  This isn't a quick fix job where older good experience would be lining up to coach.  This is tougher place to succeed in Basketball than it is for Football.

[GrandGreen]

On 1/22/2017 at 9:19 PM, Mike Jackson said:

With the dismal season so far, I wanted take a look at UNT Men's Basketball history.   We have only 3 conference titles in our history.  So I would say this part of the athletic program is more worse than any other athletic program at the school.   Besides getting rid of Benford was else can be done to this program on the right track?  I kind of disagree with Vito's opinion that firing Benford now (midseason )  is a bad idea.   Looking that resumes of coaching staff there are at least 2 I would be interested in giving the reigns to just to try them out.  I would like to see what Todd Shelton could do as head coach for the rest of the season.   Depending on how the team performs under Shelton at least we would know if he is worth keeping around after Benford is dismissed.  Don O'Dowd has an interesting resume also.  Rob Evans has a great resume but is long in the tooth and too close to Benford in philosophy to Benford.  I think they should bring in a young coach and keep the best of the younger assistants on board for continuity.   And I think a big part of evaluation to determine if keeping one then is worth it is to make an interim change at head coach.  What do you guys think.  

 

Actually MBB history is  a lot better than football.  NT played competitively in the very best bb league in the nation when they were in the MVC and were one of the top teams in Texas.  Something that has never happened in football.   They also had the same kind of success as an independence under early Blakeley, but that was as an independent.   NT was a great BB school for a while than as usual continued to go cheap as the rest of the state caught up.   

Even after, that NT bb was better than football.  I am not sure about only having 3 conference titles, I know Gales teams won 2 Southland championships. Jones never won a conference title but won two Belt tournaments.  In football, you had DD's four straight conference championship and I think Corky won the Southland conference once.  

As far as naming an interim, I think that time has passed.   

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by GrandGreen

[cogido]

13 hours ago, Harry said:

Let's not knock fans who wanted to see the Benford thing turn around.  We all want the same  thing.  Given that we all are on the same page now, we should join together and look towards a brighter future.

Sorry Harry, lot's of respect your way, BUT this Wren Baker statement on Benford's job security sounds sooo Villareal like ,  "... Nothing's going to change, everything is actually alright ". It's like the  "fake news " stories we have been hearing about in politics. We waited so long to hopefully see meaningful changes in football and now we're having to drink the same bitter kool-aid all over again in mbb. Sorry, I'm beat down.

[UNTFan23]

6 hours ago, cogido said:

Sorry Harry, lot's of respect your way, BUT this Wren Baker statement on Benford's job security sounds sooo Villareal like ,  "... Nothing's going to change, everything is actually alright ". It's like the  "fake news " stories we have been hearing about in politics. We waited so long to hopefully see meaningful changes in football and now we're having to drink the same bitter kool-aid all over again in mbb. Sorry, I'm beat down.

At the beginning of the season Wren said Benford would have the season to be reviewed. He's standing by that statement from how I see it. I don't think he ever said "everything's fine", just that Benford is not under a game by game situation and will be evaluated at the end of the season.

[MeanGreen_MBA]

31 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

At the beginning of the season Wren said Benford would have the season to be reviewed. He's standing by that statement from how I see it. I don't think he ever said "everything's fine", just that Benford is not under a game by game situation and will be evaluated at the end of the season.

good point.  The fire TB now, would mean that WB can be pressured into decision but outside influences.  Not something you want to get in motion...

[Cerebus]

20 hours ago, UNT90 said:

But we aren't on the same page. You apparently are fine with Benford being allowed to go 0-18 in conference play. I am not.

Thats a pretty stark difference. 

I can assure you @Harry is NOT fine with that.  

Again, let's try to remember that while *we* have lived with North Texas athletics for a long time, The Wren™ didn't know this place from a hole in the ground six months ago.

I can imagine a scenario where, to calm nerves, Baker came in and told the coaches that everyone would get a full year of evaluation.   So in effect he gave his word that no one would get fired mid season.

---

Would I prefer for the Benford era to be over now?  Yes.  If it isn't over before the end of the season am I going to knee jerk and say our athletics director of six months is a failure? No.

I expect him to be gone at the end of the season (at the latest) and I'll judge Baker on his hire.

---

Of course, if Beneford is retained I'll burn my club level passes and mail the ashes to Smatresk, but I don't imagine that is happening.  

[Army of Dad]

Leaving Benford in place for five full seasons would seem to indicate this is a hole in the ground.

[UNTLifer]

20 hours ago, UNT90 said:

But we aren't on the same page. You apparently are fine with Benford being allowed to go 0-18 in conference play. I am not.

Thats a pretty stark difference. 

As Cerebus stated, I would never make the assumption that Harry is fine with that conference record or our overall record.  As my Dad used to say, "There is more than one way to skin a cat."  Just because someone doesn't share your methods or exhibiting your discontent does not mean that do not want the same end result, and doesn't give free reign to belittle them at every turn.

[Army of Dad]

I like @Harry a lot, but I'm sure I don't know him as well as some of you. He strikes me as the classic die hard, nothing will ever be too much to take.

Every team has those guys and every team needs them. Here they represent too large of a percentage of total fans. In my view, this is something that's been present for the entire time I've lived in the area. 

Wren is simply continuing this trend and by his actions (specifically, his lack of public action) he is communicating he is ok with the status quo to the current and potential fans.

There are some well founded reasons why this athletic department has never come near its potential. I'm starting to see that one of them is because there isn't enough real passion to make it that way. Far too much 'go along to get along' and self deprecating 'we/he/she can't be expected to do any better than X'.

I used to think this place would finally begin to turn around, I developed a passion for UNT from attending games. Some of you know our family has only light connections to the school. We are those local fans people are often asking about. It's looking more and more like North Texas doesn't care as much as I do about it's programs. That UNT doesn't really care about its athletics is a real perception out there and this only continues to feed that perception. 

I'd ask all of you counseling for even more patience to consider that perception before you ever again wonder why locals or alumni don't attend UNT games in droves. This 'typical little ole UNT' behavior is only going to further strengthen that perception among locals and alumni alike. 

[Cerebus]

28 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

I like @Harry a lot, but I'm sure I don't know him as well as some of you. He strikes me as the classic die hard, nothing will ever be too much to take.

You're wrong.  Harry has his limits.  I am not going to share any of his personal thoughts.  But I can assure you there are limits and everyone on this board was going to see them if change hadn't been made.   He is a diehard, but even diehards have to be shown commitment to those they are committed to. 

 

30 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

Wren is simply continuing this trend and by his actions (specifically, his lack of public action) he is communicating he is ok with the status quo to the current and potential fans.

He's been here six months.  He hasn't been here for TB's total run, you have.  Try to remember that, it's a big difference.  

 

31 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

Far too much 'go along to get along' and self deprecating 'we/he/she can't be expected to do any better than X'.

I don't think Harry has ever said either of those things.    I haven't either.  Do I personally think the TB era should be over?  Yes.  Can I see why The Wren™ might let it run out the course of this year?  Yes.  

I think that would be a mistake, but not an unforgettable mistake that dooms him.  

 

I'll judge the administration on how many resources are put into a new coaching hire.

I'll hire WB on how he hires the replacement.  

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, Cerebus said:

I can assure you @Harry is NOT fine with that.  

Again, let's try to remember that while *we* have lived with North Texas athletics for a long time, The Wren™ didn't know this place from a hole in the ground six months ago.

I can imagine a scenario where, to calm nerves, Baker came in and told the coaches that everyone would get a full year of evaluation.   So in effect he gave his word that no one would get fired mid season.

---

Would I prefer for the Benford era to be over now?  Yes.  If it isn't over before the end of the season am I going to knee jerk and say our athletics director of six months is a failure? No.

I expect him to be gone at the end of the season (at the latest) and I'll judge Baker on his hire.

---

Of course, if Beneford is retained I'll burn my club level passes and mail the ashes to Smatresk, but I don't imagine that is happening.  

If Baker gave the coaches a free one year pass, he should be fired immediately for not researching UNT's programs and having no concept of how college athletics works.

He has 4 years of game tape to evaluate Benford. If he is a great basketball guy, he would have seen the problems like the rest of us.

Will you answer the question? Are you ok with UNT going 0-18 in conference play? 

[Army of Dad]

9 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

He's been here six months.  He hasn't been here for TB's total run, you have.  Try to remember that, it's a big difference.  

If WB didn't have any idea of what he had here before we hired him then we got the wrong guy. It's not like Benford's abject failure (and Mac's, and Dodge's and Stephens' and Peterson's) are secrets. Additionally, like it or not WB has to understand that his 6 months experience isn't the case for his customers. 

9 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

I don't think Harry has ever said either of those things.    I haven't either.  

I don't believe I specified any person saying that. It's a pervasive sentiment in segments of the school and fan base.

9 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

  Do I personally think the TB era should be over?  Yes.  Can I see why The Wren™ might let it run out the course of this year?  Yes.  

I think that would be a mistake, but not an unforgettable mistake that dooms him.  

Understand, but for some that would be both an unforgettable and unforgivable mistake.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Army of Dad

[Cerebus]

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

Will you answer the question? Are you ok with UNT going 0-18 in conference play? 

No I am not OK with going 0-18, and yes I would be extremely disappointed in WB if that was allowed to happen, but no I would not judge him to be a failure if it did.  

I've stated that several times.