Frank Wilson Recruiting Insight

Caw Caw · January 21, 2017

This article only let me read it for free when it was through twitter, it was incredibly insightful on the approach an expert in his field has taken. This is what it takes. This is what they do. It's clearly an effective approach. I hope we'll take note of it, adapt and improve. This is one of the best recruiting insights of the season in my opinion.

DeepGreen · January 21, 2017

And what do it say?

UTSA Paratrooper 04 · January 21, 2017

Good read. Thanks for sharing.

FirefightnRick · January 21, 2017

Ah..the secret is revealed. Be nice...and eat cheap.

Why didn't we think of that?

Rick

PlummMeanGreen · January 21, 2017

Sounds to me if Frank Wilson signs this class their message board can start the proverbial "we won't be able to keep this guy" thread. Fact is...they won't, especially if they have a good season this Fall.

When we seem to be getting our butts kicked in recruiting my consolation is still (once again) how back in the early days we had competitive teams against perennial Top 10 recruiting program "the" UT down in Austin. First time we played them Earl Campbell had to make a near end of game touchdown to beat us 17-14.

Yes, we'd all like 5 star HS recruits who play (minimum) at the 3 star level collegiately, but most of the best teams we ever had at North Texas never won any "Best Recruiting Class" awards.

GrandGreen · January 21, 2017

2 hours ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

Sounds to me if Frank Wilson signs this class their message board can start the proverbial "we won't be able to keep this guy" thread. Fact is...they won't, especially if they have a good season this Fall.

When we seem to be getting our butts kicked in recruiting my consolation is still (once again) how back in the early days we had competitive teams against perennial Top 10 recruiting program "the" UT down in Austin. First time we played them Earl Campbell had to make a near end of game touchdown to beat us 17-14.

Yes, we'd all like 5 star HS recruits who play (minimum) at the 3 star level collegiately, but most of the best teams we ever had at North Texas never won any "Best Recruiting Class" awards.

Actually Plum, I believe the opposite is true. Those great Mitchell and Rust teams were full of future pros because NT had little regional competition for Afro-American players, Fry was a great recruiter and his classes were comparable to most of the SWC. DD's four conference championships were all on the back of the 2001 class which contains 8 state hundred players.

Other than those examples, it is hard to find an NT team that could actually string together a couple of good seasons. McCarney's one good year team is an example of what a veteran team can do that hits on a few very good players. Corky also had an uncanny ability to win big games with a lot less talent, problem he couldn't usually sustain that with any consistence against 1aa competition.

That UT game you mentioned had Fry at the helm and NT could easily have won. Darrell Royal's plan to rest an ailing Campbell came to a halt as NT outplayed UT for most of the game. They had to put Earl in, and I still can see him going for that winning run actually limping down the sideline and no one NT had could catch him.

UNT90 · January 21, 2017

You never know who has influence over a kid. Smart man.

As of today, it appears UTSA made the better hire. They are going to be very hard to beat and are setting themselves up for a CUSA championship. We are recruiting like we did in the McCarney era.

This HAS to change.

Wag Tag · January 21, 2017

I find very hard to believe that any coach works as hard as Seths team!! GMG

UNT90 · January 21, 2017

15 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

I find very hard to believe that any coach works as hard as Seths team!! GMG

Did you read the article?

UNT Mean Green · January 21, 2017

18 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Did you read the article?

Every college coach who recruits works hard, that's not exclusive to UTSA or anyone else.

Honestly, who cares about how Frank Wilson reportedly eats during recruiting trips?

greenminer · January 21, 2017

You know if you read between the lines, it's easy to see that everyone who is not Frank Wilson is enjoying luxurious lunch breaks at all of the Texas finest BBQ joints.

I actually like the article, but let's just say Seth is working just as hard and in just the same way. I mean, what do we really know about our staff? I actually want to think there is something dynamic about Wilson and what he says to these players when he is on a couch in their living room or coach's office.

Edited January 21, 2017 by greenminer

emmitt01 · January 21, 2017

In other news Lane Kiffin only shops at K&G for suits...and Skip Holtz drinks Keystone Light

We are being passed by people!!!

Caw Caw · January 21, 2017

2 hours ago, greenminer said:

You know if you read between the lines, it's easy to see that everyone who is not Frank Wilson is enjoying luxurious lunch breaks at all of the Texas finest BBQ joints.

I actually like the article, but let's just say Seth is working just as hard and in just the same way. I mean, what do we really know about our staff? I actually want to think there is something dynamic about Wilson and what he says to these players when he is on a couch in their living room or coach's office.

Isn't it the job of our athletic department to inform us on our coaches and staff?

UNTLifer · January 21, 2017

31 minutes ago, Caw Caw said:

Isn't it the job of our athletic department to inform us on our coaches and staff?

No.

UT supposedly won the recruiting title many years under Mack Brown. What was Brown's record against OU?

UNT90 · January 21, 2017

4 hours ago, UNT Mean Green said:

Every college coach who recruits works hard, that's not exclusive to UTSA or anyone else.

Honestly, who cares about how Frank Wilson reportedly eats during recruiting trips?

UNT should be when he is kicking their tail on and off the field.

41 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

No.

UT supposedly won the recruiting title many years under Mack Brown. What was Brown's record against OU?

Were they separated by 45 schools in the recruiting rankings?

EDIT: my mistake. 41 positions per rivals:

https://n.rivals.com/team_rankings/

And 36 positions per 24/7:

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeTeamRankings

Edited January 21, 2017 by UNT90

GrandGreen · January 21, 2017

I would like to know how anyone on this board knows how hard any of the coaching staff work at NT or anywhere else. One thing I learned in a career was the more people talked about working hard, generally the more the opposite was true. There are also a lot of people who work very hard, but just are not very good at their job.

I don't remember any press, not counting message boards, talking about how little a college coaching staff worked. I have also not see any staff that doesn't try to convey how hard they are working.

There is only one accurate gauge of how hard a staff works, and that is the results on the field. However, it is impossible to know those results until that information is mostly useless. Things change and 5 year old data may help explain why a particular coach is still here or why he is gone, but it provides little insight into the current state of recruiting. So the only basis fans have to rate current recruiting is the various rankings which by the way have been proven to be very accurate on a cumulative basis. They miss on a lot of players, but generally their overall results prove to be pretty good. Coaching staffs know how they are doing but you will never hear anything but the party line that recruiting went well.

Obviously, no one who has any understanding of college football, expects a g5 to win recruiting battles against most of the P5. I can think of only a few G5 programs that NT should not be competing with. UH is on a roll now, but what other region g5's should logically have any significant advantage over NT?

If UTSA ends up soundly beating NT in the recruiting race, you have to question why. I can't think of any other conclusion than they are just much better at recruiting because I think NT has a lot more to sell than they do.

untjim1995 · January 22, 2017

7 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

If UTSA ends up soundly beating NT in the recruiting race, you have to question why. I can't think of any other conclusion than they are just much better at recruiting because I think NT has a lot more to sell than they do.

I think it's ok to recognize a few advantages that UTSA has on a lot of teams in CUSA, including us, when it comes to recruiting. First of all, they are in a tourist destination--whether we like the town or not, lots of people love to go there. And it's location attracts strong OOC opponents, including lots of P5s. Kids can be sold on playing at UTSA when they visit the Alamodome and see UTSA hanging with teams like Arizona, Arizona State, Oklahoma State, and Kansas State. That's a huge advantage that we don't get to offer--our big games are SMU and Army for OOC home opponents--it's not even close.

Second, they do have strong support from the city of San Antonio and it's media. The SA Express News, as well as their TV stations cover them closely and don't consider them as laughingstocks or as not worth mentioning. DFW media is almost the complete opposite toward us.

All I'm saying is that it's an easier job to recruit there than it is here. And every year, we go over the same argument about why we should be so much better in recruiting rankings and how is it that other G5s in the state and region are doing so much better. But it's basically been a couple of Dickey stealth years that got us the talent for our SBC run and the early Dodge years when his HS reputation was getting us some solid skill players for offense, otherwise it's been mediocre to dead-ass last in these recruiting rankings. Again, it hasn't mattered what coach, what conference, or what stadium we have played in, the recruiting doesn't really improve. The reality is that our best teams we have fielded since we moved back up to FBS were in 2002-2004 and in 2013, all of which benefited from the three or four better rated classes we recruited. That's why recruiting records matter. And if Seth Littrell and company cannot change this course, it's likely that we won't see much difference between him and his predecessors in the standings. I still think his best course to follow was the one Johnny Jones took with the basketball program, which was to build it up and get transfers from P5s that could play here, and then eventually convince TX HS coaches and parents that we were a solid program to have their sons attend and play. If Seth can do that, I think he'll break the curse here and actually get hired away soon by a swooning P5 school.

GrandGreen · January 22, 2017

10 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

I think it's ok to recognize a few advantages that UTSA has on a lot of teams in CUSA, including us, when it comes to recruiting. First of all, they are in a tourist destination--whether we like the town or not, lots of people love to go there. And it's location attracts strong OOC opponents, including lots of P5s. Kids can be sold on playing at UTSA when they visit the Alamodome and see UTSA hanging with teams like Arizona, Arizona State, Oklahoma State, and Kansas State. That's a huge advantage that we don't get to offer--our big games are SMU and Army for OOC home opponents--it's not even close.

Second, they do have strong support from the city of San Antonio and it's media. The SA Express News, as well as their TV stations cover them closely and don't consider them as laughingstocks or as not worth mentioning. DFW media is almost the complete opposite toward us.

All I'm saying is that it's an easier job to recruit there than it is here. And every year, we go over the same argument about why we should be so much better in recruiting rankings and how is it that other G5s in the state and region are doing so much better. But it's basically been a couple of Dickey stealth years that got us the talent for our SBC run and the early Dodge years when his HS reputation was getting us some solid skill players for offense, otherwise it's been mediocre to dead-ass last in these recruiting rankings. Again, it hasn't mattered what coach, what conference, or what stadium we have played in, the recruiting doesn't really improve. The reality is that our best teams we have fielded since we moved back up to FBS were in 2002-2004 and in 2013, all of which benefited from the three or four better rated classes we recruited. That's why recruiting records matter. And if Seth Littrell and company cannot change this course, it's likely that we won't see much difference between him and his predecessors in the standings. I still think his best course to follow was the one Johnny Jones took with the basketball program, which was to build it up and get transfers from P5s that could play here, and then eventually convince TX HS coaches and parents that we were a solid program to have their sons attend and play. If Seth can do that, I think he'll break the curse here and actually get hired away soon by a swooning P5 school.

Argument to the above:

I don't believe that San Antonio has many advantages over Denton in recruiting and I like both cities. Denton is in a substantially bigger metro area than SA, yet has the feel of a much smaller town. As far as destination city, not near what it was and recruits are looking for a place to get their education and reside for four year not take a round around the River Walk. By the way Tulane and Hawaii would be a powerhouses if the destination criteria was that important.

The important factor is there is no comparison between the number of recruits in the DFW metroplex and San Antonio area and you can throw in all of S Texas.

Facilities and Academics are both pluses in NT's favor.

Didn't I mention the over 30,000 co-eds.

Semi-agree with:

SA rise and relative success have been largely due to the fact that SA is very large city with no college football. However, if you went to last year game you would see there was very little visible support for the team. Yes, it gets city government support but so does SMU from Dallas even thought it is really not in Dallas. Not sure why you think the DFW media thinks NT is a laughing stock. They provide coverage, but media gives coverage to teams that have large fan interest; NT just does not have that now. The sports media is primarily all about pro sports in DFW. have no idea how much coverage UTSA gets in SA, but I bet it is a lot less than at they got as a start-up.

Not sure what your last paragraph is saying:

We both agree recruiting is the driver to success

We both agree recruiting has been sub-par for NT for years

We apparently disagree on the amount of time it should to take NT to step up recruiting.

Overall: You think UTSA has inherit advantages over NT in football recruiting. Also, that recruiting at NT is just hard and is going to take a long time to turn around no matter who NT has a coach. RV and McCarney would certainly support that view. By the way, ULM is also above NT in the recruiting ratings; do they also have a lot of recruiting advantages?

I believe the number one factor in recruiting when compared to conference mates, is the ability of the staff to recruit. Wins and loss records, location, academics, facilities, etc. all are factors, but good recruiters seem to be able to overcome areas their schools lack in, and bad ones use them for excuses.

Edited January 22, 2017 by GrandGreen

Aldo · January 23, 2017

On 1/21/2017 at 2:25 PM, UNTLifer said:

No.

UT supposedly won the recruiting title many years under Mack Brown. What was Brown's record against OU?

1-1 national championships. Push?

untjim1995 · January 23, 2017

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 10:20 AM, GrandGreen said:

Argument to the above:

I don't believe that San Antonio has many advantages over Denton in recruiting and I like both cities. Denton is in a substantially bigger metro area than SA, yet has the feel of a much smaller town. As far as destination city, not near what it was and recruits are looking for a place to get their education and reside for four year not take a round around the River Walk. By the way Tulane and Hawaii would be a powerhouses if the destination criteria was that important.

The important factor is there is no comparison between the number of recruits in the DFW metroplex and San Antonio area and you can throw in all of S Texas.

Facilities and Academics are both pluses in NT's favor.

Didn't I mention the over 30,000 co-eds.

Semi-agree with:

SA rise and relative success have been largely due to the fact that SA is very large city with no college football. However, if you went to last year game you would see there was very little visible support for the team. Yes, it gets city government support but so does SMU from Dallas even thought it is really not in Dallas. Not sure why you think the DFW media thinks NT is a laughing stock. They provide coverage, but media gives coverage to teams that have large fan interest; NT just does not have that now. The sports media is primarily  all about pro sports in DFW. have no idea how much coverage UTSA gets in SA, but I bet it is a lot less than at they got as a start-up.

Not sure what your last paragraph is saying:

We both agree recruiting is the driver to success

We both agree recruiting has been sub-par for NT for years

We apparently disagree on the amount of time it should to take NT to step up recruiting.

Overall: You think UTSA has inherit advantages over NT in football recruiting. Also, that recruiting at NT is just hard and is going to take a long time to turn around no matter who NT has a coach. RV and McCarney would certainly support that view. By the way, ULM is also above NT in the recruiting ratings; do they also have a lot of recruiting advantages?

I believe the number one factor in recruiting when compared to conference mates, is the ability of the staff to recruit. Wins and loss records, location, academics, facilities, etc. all are factors, but good recruiters seem to be able to overcome areas their schools lack in, and bad ones use them for excuses.

Look, ULM didn't drop down to I-aa in the 80s and stay there for 12 years--they were already there, basically. Its why the Southland was such a disaster for us. People in Texas looked at the schools we aligned with and just decided that wasn't worth their attention. SFA, SHSU, McNeese State, Northwestern Louisiana State, Nicholls State, Southwest Texas State...they were all nobodies to the SWC media in this state. You can say that was 25-35 years ago, and you'd be correct. But that mindset that set in with TX HS coaches and parents as looking down at us hasn't really changed, mostly because we have sucked as a FBS school since 1995.

My point is that ULM, with almost no resources, still gets decent talent in the region because of two huge things: the state of Louisiana has a ton of talent, even if it is split between 4 G5s--not including LSU in this. And they have a reputation, just like ULL and La Tech have, of being able to produce a team that can compete and even beat P5s. Although our resources and facilities should crush those Louisiana schools, we are basically last or close to it amongst Texas G5 colleges for recruiting in most seasons--and that is saying something with the fact that texas has 7 G5s. We almost never compete with the bodybag opponent, so our Texas media just laughs it off when we get crushed by the names they only care about in college football. To me, that's why ULM and others in this region beat us in recruiting rankings a lot of the time. Until we do something on a bigger scale, in terms of winning, I don't see how any UNT head coach and his staff will change this, either. It has been the case since 1995, for sure.

GrandGreen · January 23, 2017

12 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Look, ULM didn't drop down to I-aa in the 80s and stay there for 12 years--they were already there, basically. Its why the Southland was such a disaster for us. People in Texas looked at the schools we aligned with and just decided that wasn't worth their attention. SFA, SHSU, McNeese State, Northwestern Louisiana State, Nicholls State, Southwest Texas State...they were all nobodies to the SWC media in this state. You can say that was 25-35 years ago, and you'd be correct. But that mindset that set in with TX HS coaches and parents as looking down at us hasn't really changed, mostly because we have sucked as a FBS school since 1995.

My point is that ULM, with almost no resources, still gets decent talent in the region because of two huge things: the state of Louisiana has a ton of talent, even if it is split between 4 G5s--not including LSU in this. And they have a reputation, just like ULL and La Tech have, of being able to produce a team that can compete and even beat P5s. Although our resources and facilities should crush those Louisiana schools, we are basically last or close to it amongst Texas G5 colleges for recruiting in most seasons--and that is saying something with the fact that texas has 7 G5s. We almost never compete with the bodybag opponent, so our Texas media just laughs it off when we get crushed by the names they only care about in college football. To me, that's why ULM and others in this region beat us in recruiting rankings a lot of the time. Until we do something on a bigger scale, in terms of winning, I don't see how any UNT head coach and his staff will change this, either. It has been the case since 1995, for sure.

If there is one thing I didn't think would ever happen, is someone actually trying to make a case that ULM has recruiting advantages over NT.

Edited January 23, 2017 by GrandGreen

Harry · January 23, 2017

14 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

If there is one thing I didn't think would ever happen, is someone actually trying to make a case that ULM has recruiting advantages over NT.

These are good discussions to have. How do these schools manage it? I know with La. Tech they have the trimester system which to my understanding REALLY helps them with athletes and flexibility on academics. I just get the sense that there was this belief that once the facility issues and conference issues were addressed it would automatically lead to the recruiting promised land, but it is clearly more complicated than that. Wren has stated that he believes this staff knows what it is doing which is reassuring. We are constantly told not to look at the recruiting services as much as the results and I get that. RV used to state, "I have done everything I can to put these coaches in a position to succeed..." and my point is I don't think that it enough. My hope is that that Wren digs into the detail of recruiting at North Texas and comes up with specific solutions to overcoming past obstacles. This is going to require feedback from the coaching staff on why certain players make choices to go other places. If it is a Big 12 option we get why. If it is UTSA/La. Tech or ULM we need to understand why so it can be addressed. gmg

Cerebus · January 23, 2017

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

How do these schools manage it?

They hire good recruiters.

Look, you can look at two different HS RB's and say "one of them is a better running back." You can look at coaches and say "one of them is a better recruiter."

Now as far as head coaches go I am of the opinion that they don't personally need to be great recruiters, though that helps. The main thing a HEAD coach has to do is be able to identify good recruiting assistants, and convince them to work for him. So the head coach is really a recruiter recruiter, if that makes sense.

From having talked to family members who were recruited, and some of our former players. It's usually not the head coach who closes the deal, it's usually a combination of whoever contacted them first, and their position coach.

Harry · January 23, 2017

3 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

They hire good recruiters.

Look, you can look at two different HS RB's and say "one of them is a better running back." You can look at coaches and say "one of them is a better recruiter."

Now as far as head coaches go I am of the opinion that they don't personally need to be great recruiters, though that helps. The main thing a HEAD coach has to do is be able to identify good recruiting assistants, and convince them to work for him. So the head coach is really a recruiter recruiter, if that makes sense.

From having talked to family members who were recruited, and some of our former players. It's usually not the head coach who closes the deal, it's usually a combination of whoever contacted them first, and their position coach.

I don't doubt that, but even a good recruiter has feedback about the product he is selling and what may be roadblocks to him closing the sell. Or perhaps that coach had success recruiting at a program that was different in certain aspects from North Texas. My point is you hire the best recruiters you can afford and you provide them with the tools they need to succeed. There needs to be a certain synergy within the AD and coaching staff to ensure that UNT is maximizing it's potential in recruiting. Mac considered himself a great recruiter and hired what he thought were good recruiters as assistants. Fast forward a couple years and we hear from him that things are "hard". My question is why, what can address that and why did it take several years to come up with that assessment? Why do you have an AD saying that he has done everything possible to make it a success? Is that a guess on his part or does he really know the detail behind the cause? These are the issues we have to address if we want to maximize our success.

GrandGreen · January 23, 2017

11 minutes ago, Harry said:

These are good discussions to have. How do these schools manage it? I know with La. Tech they have the trimester system which to my understanding REALLY helps them with athletes and flexibility on academics. I just get the sense that there was this belief that once the facility issues and conference issues were addressed it would automatically lead to the recruiting promised land, but it is clearly more complicated than that. Wren has stated that he believes this staff knows what it is doing which is reassuring. We are constantly told not to look at the recruiting services as much as the results and I get that. RV used to state, "I have done everything I can to put these coaches in a position to succeed..." and my point is I don't think that it enough. My hope is that that Wren digs into the detail of recruiting at North Texas and comes up with specific solutions to overcoming past obstacles. This is going to require feedback from the coaching staff on why certain players make choices to go other places. If it is a Big 12 option we get why. If it is UTSA/La. Tech or ULM we need to understand why so it can be addressed. gmg

Good points,

All speculation, but I don't think RV even being an ex-coach really evaluated the recruiting process. If he did, why did he give McCarney that new contract when it should have been obvious he wasn't getting it done on the recruiting front.

I think Baker will be entirely different. I think he will look into the process, not only to evaluate the recruiting performance; but also as he has stated to find the ways that progress can be improved. You will never hear from Baker, he is not happy with recruiting; but if it doesn't substantially improve I bet Littrell does.