Recruiting Folderol & Whatnot

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · January 17, 2017

There are people fans who are all worried up about recruiting. Specifically, that the recruiting isn't noticeably better that what the prior staff was bringing in...

...which was the same complaint about the prior staff...

...and, the prior staff...

...and, they told two friends...and, so on, and so on, and so on.

The truth is, we aren't on the maps of the vast majority of 3- and 4- and 5-star recruits. We haven't won enough to garner interest from them. So, we are getting what we have gotten for the past two+ decades.

And, let's be honest, for a moment. What have we not tried? We hired offensive coordinators (Simon, Dickey, Littrell), we've hired high school coaches (Dodge), we've hired experienced coaches (McCarney). We occasionally win, but mostly do not.

(We've also discovered along the way that "if you build it they will come!" is just in the movies and not a real thing.)

When we hired Seth Littrell, did anyone really know who we'd hired? I mean, not UNT fans, but the average fan on the street. However, I'd bet that 72 hours before he was hired here, most UNT fans didn't even know who Littrell was.

So, how does a high school kid wrapped up in school, skirts, church, Xbox One, twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat, and Pokemon Go! know who he is?

I've also thought a lot about recruiting "pipelines." How long can you really have a "pipeline?" High school coaches move around as well as college coaches, and I mean head coaches and assistants. They are at this school for a while, then that one. Their tenures jumble with the college coaching changes.

Now, of course, if Nick Saban knocks at your door, you know how he is. Probably Urban Meyer and Jim Harbaugh as well. But, Littrell?

I don't say this to demean Littrell at all. What I mean to do is ask people to not freak out about recruiting. We are getting what we normally get. We've had coaches like Darrell Dickey, Dan McCarney...and, Seth Littrell...take us to bowl games just with "getting what we get."

As long as the coaches can coach, "getting what we get" is good enough.

drex · January 17, 2017

If you build it they will come if you work hard enough and smart enough to get them in the seats. There is no excuse for small season opening crowds at Apogee.

Cerebus · January 17, 2017

14 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I don't say this to demean Littrell at all. What I mean to do is ask people to not freak out about recruiting. We are getting what we normally get. We've had coaches like Darrell Dickey, Dan McCarney...and, Seth Littrell...take us to bowl games just with "getting what we get."

Nope. Darrell Dickey recruited at a much higher level than any other coach since we have returned to 1A/FBS. 12 DaMN State Top 100s, six in one class. Now we're struggling to pick up Area Top 100s.

We've just completed our 22nd season back in 1A/FBS, and we've had a winning season exactly 4 times in that run. Dickey had 3 of them.

Remove Dickey out of that equation and we have had ONE winning season in THIRTEEN years. If you're happy with that ratio then don't worry about the recruiting, if you want to win a little more often, then we better start recruiting at least as well as Dickey did.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · January 17, 2017

Just now, Cerebus said:

Nope. Darrell Dickey recruited at a much higher level than any other coach since we have returned to 1A/FBS. 12 DaMN State Top 100s, six in one class. Now we're struggling to pick up Area Top 100s.

We've just completed our 22nd season back in 1A/FBS, and we've had a winning season exactly 4 times in that run. Dickey had 3 of them.

Remove Dickey out of that equation and we have had ONE winning season in THIRTEEN years. If you're happy with that ratio then don't worry about the recruiting, if you want to win a little more often, then we better start recruiting at least as well as Dickey did.

Senator, I knew Darrell Dickey. Seth Littrell is no Darrell Dickey.

However, he doesn't have to be. He's got better facilities, a better stadium, and more money in the assistant coach salary pool than Dickey.

I have always Darrell Dickey, and always will. But, I don't think Littrell has to outrecruit him. We came within a ball hair from winning six or seven games without a legitimate QB last season. So, if can can coach up what he signs, we're good.

GrandGreen · January 17, 2017

I sure hope Littrell is not another DD.

Travis · January 17, 2017

2 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

I sure hope Littrell is not another DD.

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UNT90 · January 17, 2017

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

There are people fans who are all worried up about recruiting. Specifically, that the recruiting isn't noticeably better that what the prior staff was bringing in...

...which was the same complaint about the prior staff...

...and, the prior staff...

...and, they told two friends...and, so on, and so on, and so on.

The truth is, we aren't on the maps of the vast majority of 3- and 4- and 5-star recruits. We haven't won enough to garner interest from them. So, we are getting what we have gotten for the past two+ decades.

And, let's be honest, for a moment. What have we not tried? We hired offensive coordinators (Simon, Dickey, Littrell), we've hired high school coaches (Dodge), we've hired experienced coaches (McCarney). We occasionally win, but mostly do not.

(We've also discovered along the way that "if you build it they will come!" is just in the movies and not a real thing.)

When we hired Seth Littrell, did anyone really know who we'd hired? I mean, not UNT fans, but the average fan on the street. However, I'd bet that 72 hours before he was hired here, most UNT fans didn't even know who Littrell was.

So, how does a high school kid wrapped up in school, skirts, church, Xbox One, twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat, and Pokemon Go! know who he is?

I've also thought a lot about recruiting "pipelines." How long can you really have a "pipeline?" High school coaches move around as well as college coaches, and I mean head coaches and assistants. They are at this school for a while, then that one. Their tenures jumble with the college coaching changes.

Now, of course, if Nick Saban knocks at your door, you know how he is. Probably Urban Meyer and Jim Harbaugh as well. But, Littrell?

I don't say this to demean Littrell at all. What I mean to do is ask people to not freak out about recruiting. We are getting what we normally get. We've had coaches like Darrell Dickey, Dan McCarney...and, Seth Littrell...take us to bowl games just with "getting what we get."

As long as the coaches can coach, "getting what we get" is good enough.

No it isn't. And hasn't been. Talent wins.

UNT90 · January 17, 2017

2 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Nope. Darrell Dickey recruited at a much higher level than any other coach since we have returned to 1A/FBS. 12 DaMN State Top 100s, six in one class. Now we're struggling to pick up Area Top 100s.

We've just completed our 22nd season back in 1A/FBS, and we've had a winning season exactly 4 times in that run. Dickey had 3 of them.

Remove Dickey out of that equation and we have had ONE winning season in THIRTEEN years. If you're happy with that ratio then don't worry about the recruiting, if you want to win a little more often, then we better start recruiting at least as well as Dickey did.

This.

Expect more. Remember, TFLF is the same guy that is fine creating a lower classification and moving UNT football to that classification.

Is it really any surprise that he is fine with the status quo?

TIgreen01 · January 17, 2017

Stop this non-sense. If there was EVER a case that recruiting rankings matter, look no further than UNT.

Cerebus probably said it better, but we have mostly SUCKED for the last 12-13 years. We've legitimately been in the running for the worst team in the country more than a handful of those years. Two of those teams, 2015 and 2008, were possibly the worst FBS football teams to ever suit up. During that span our recruiting has pretty regularly ranked near the bottom of our conference, our state, and nationally. Getting the same level recruit as we have over that span means we can expect similar results.

Everyone usually tries to prove that recruiting rankings matter by only looking at the more highly rated individual recruits, or top ranked teams and charting their success. I think it makes better sense to look at it from the bottom up, and where better is that demonstrated than here?? Get it through your head(s). Recruiting is the life blood of college athletics. Period.

Edited January 17, 2017 by TIgreen01

ChristopherRyanWilkes · January 17, 2017

This is fairly accurate. I sometimes wonder if UTSA's lack of football program history has helped them with the recruiting success they are having right now. I know Frank Wilson has brought in some based on old LSU relationships and whatnot, but wonder if sometimes no history is better than a bad history. I think most kids around this area have only heard about us as not being good in football. They don't know or probably care about the Joe Greene era or especially DD era. Yet, we have one of the lowest recruiting budgets in CUSA and haven't had much movement outside of DFW and surrounding areas.

You have to remember how many Texas teams we were competing with in recruiting during those DD days. And even then, we were beating teams in a newly formed Sun Belt with teams still trying to build back up to Division 1 level respectability. A look at our non-conference record shows we weren't dominating outside of those parameters. Not to knock DD, he did a good job for us obviously.

All this is to say I'm a big advocate of trying to find "diamonds in the rough" outside of DFW to build a team that can help our recruiting here at home by winning. UTSA's recruiting has been scattered about the state and surrounding states and it's showing in their recruiting ranking dominance.

Cerebus · January 17, 2017

9 minutes ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

I know Frank Wilson has brought in some based on old LSU relationships and whatnot, but wonder if sometimes no history is better than a bad history.

Frank Wilson has recruited well everywhere he has gone. Maybe he's just a good recruiter? Coaches can be bad or good recruiters. Mac was know as a meh recruiter at ISU, he was a meh recruiter at Florida, why would anyone expect him to be a great recruiter at North Texas?

You hire a good recruiter at North Texas and they will recruit well, you hire a bad recruiter and they won't. To me, it's too early to judge whether or not SL and his staff are good or bad, but I am concerned.

Whichever way you want to slice it, we have 3 *** ranked recruits, USM, ODU and WKU have 8, UTSA has 9, and MTSU has 10. I don't know how we shouldn't be worried about that, at least a little.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · January 17, 2017

Just now, Cerebus said:

Frank Wilson has recruited well everywhere he has gone. Maybe he's just a good recruiter? Coaches can be bad or good recruiters. Mac was know as a meh recruiter at ISU, he was a meh recruiter at Florida, why would anyone expect him to be a great recruiter at North Texas?

You hire a good recruiter at North Texas and they will recruit well, you hire a bad recruiter and they won't. To me, it's too early to judge whether or not SL and his staff are good or bad, but I am concerned.

Whichever way you want to slice it, we have 3 *** ranked recruits, USM, ODU and WKU have 8, UTSA has 9, and MTSU has 10. I don't know how we shouldn't be worried about that, at least a little.

This is probably true and we might be giving SL the benefit of the doubt by saying that we have some perception issues to overcome. I had never heard about SL being known as a recruiter before he came here. Frank Wilson obviously had that reputation. We made our decision and have to see it out, but I think a lot of us are concerned thus far.

Then again we are also burnt by having a basketball coach known to be a recruiter and seeing how that's worked out, but I digress.

Cerebus · January 17, 2017

Just now, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Then again we are also burnt by having a basketball coach known to be a recruiter and seeing how that's worked out, but I digress.

Having a coach that can do one or the other won't cut it. If you want to see a coach who recruited lights out but couldn't use them then just go over the BB forum and ask about Vic Trilli. I don't think any NT coach has ever recruited as well as he did, we did not win many games under him though.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · January 17, 2017

1 minute ago, Cerebus said:

Having a coach that can do one or the other won't cut it. If you want to see a coach who recruited lights out but couldn't use them then just go over the BB forum and ask about Vic Trilli. I don't think any NT coach has ever recruited as well as he did, we did not win many games under him though.

Well here's to hoping Wren Baker can find those unicorns that can do both. Seems to me the up-and-coming coaches know the G5 schools that can be a catapult to a higher level like Houston and we are left with guys we always have to take somewhat of a chance with. UTSA took a chance with Frank Wilson, too. He was never a sure bet to recruit well there, but sure enough he has. He's still not a sure bet to coach well on the field. Just the way it goes.

greenminer · January 17, 2017

3 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We came within a ball hair from winning six or seven games without a legitimate QB last season. So, if can can coach up what he signs, we're good.

5-7 and needing an APR exception to get to a bowl game should not be good long term.

If we want to consistently be in that 8-10 win tier, we will need to get over the UTSA/WKU/ODU hump, and it probably starts with out-recruiting them. Having said that, I'm excited to see what these men can do with a full year of the system under their belts.

Green92 · January 17, 2017

SL is going to have to out coach the opponents for at least a few years before he'll have the luxury of out athleting anyone.

untjim1995 · January 17, 2017

To me, the best here with Seth Littrell is that he follows the Johnny Jones plan--get quality FBS transfers from power schools that can play at our level, coach up kids with little or no ratings, and become a winner that eventually gains attention around the area and state that entices HS kids with talent to look at us. JJ did that and he got some solid kids into the program by the time he left for LSU.

Until we see something different, and it is now even harder because we have UTSA and Texas State to recruit against in football, unlike when DD was here and recruited some great talent for about two years, it will remain the reality that our reputation as a loser and being apathetic (or worse) when looking at athletics will continue to haunt us on the recruiting front.

FirefightnRick · January 17, 2017

I'm more worried about X's and O's.

And just as soon as I see us consistently shut the run game down and convert 3rd and an inch from under center I'll not have any more worries with this program.

Rick

emmitt01 · January 18, 2017

6 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

I sure hope Littrell is not another DD.

Conference titles and New Orleans trips bore me too

p_phelps · January 18, 2017

1 hour ago, FirefightnRick said:

I'm more worried about X's and O's.

And just as soon as I see us consistently shut the run game down and convert 3rd and an inch from under center I'll not have any more worries with this program.

Rick

Think that is more from the Willy and the Joe's. Talent wins in college football, schemes win in the NFL. Get more talent = more wins. I like what we did on the field with the lack of talent this year but if we don't bring in more talent expect similar results. That will not be acceptable. Hoping for a big NSD with some surprises. Sky isn't falling but I'm looking up more today than I was a month ago.

MCMLXXX · January 18, 2017

5 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Having a coach that can do one or the other won't cut it. If you want to see a coach who recruited lights out but couldn't use them then just go over the BB forum and ask about Vic Trilli. I don't think any NT coach has ever recruited as well as he did, we did not win many games under him though.

We did finally get in CUSA just like Trilli said we would.

UNT90 · January 18, 2017

5 hours ago, Green92 said:

SL is going to have to out coach the opponents for at least a few years before he'll have the luxury of out athleting anyone.

If he doesn't recruit better, he will never get this luxury.

Edited January 18, 2017 by UNT90

GrandGreen · January 18, 2017

2 hours ago, emmitt01 said:

Conference titles and New Orleans trips bore me too

Again all based on one outstanding class, that he never came remotely close to duplicating.

Then he became much more interesting in the next job, than doing his current one.

FirefightnRick · January 18, 2017

2 hours ago, p_phelps said:

Talent wins in college football,

Talent has nothing to do with the QB being instructed to throw a 25 yard fade to a reciever who isn't there.....on 3rd and less than a foot.

Rick

GMG24 · January 18, 2017

This site... first year HC, first year OC, first year DC's we win 5 games and are competitive in all but two. We can find anything to itch and gritch about. Good lord. Does he need to recruit BETTER HS athletes probably, but so far the ones he and his staff identified from the previous class who has 0-2 offers have ALL been successful. Do we need to make a living off it? Hell no but this dude and his staff are the best UNT has had in a long time. Chill out and enjoy. I guarantee you the 3rd and short issue will be fixed in the off season. Maybe we threw it because they knew our OL couldn't win their battle vs the DL? All I am saying is we all need to calm down take two steps back and relax. Littrell and company had a small class last class, will have a small class with this one, have identified plenty of talent they offered to and at the time kid had 0 offers then we offer and boom he adds 5-6 offers from big time schools.