Group of 5 officials considering playoff for non-Power 5 teams

[Ryan Munthe]

8 minutes ago, KRAM1 said:

Law degreed?  Thought he worked for St. Arnold's?

He was insulting me because I don't believe that a G5 lawsuit would work.

[UTSA Fan]

1 hour ago, Ryan Munthe said:

He was insulting me because I don't believe that a G5 lawsuit would work.

Man, I thought you were practicing law too. Oh well.

[JesseMartin]

On 12/29/2016 at 0:29 PM, Zeke said:

This is only a good solution if the G5 playoff works as a play-in to the College Football Playoff. 

They would play the one seed with most years getting pummled.  But every 10-20 years - something special would happen and you would be able to capture what is so captivating with the NCAA BBall Tourney.  

Until and unless the playoff gets to at least 8...this would be awesome.

On 12/29/2016 at 0:51 PM, UNT90 said:

The give up in this fan base never ceases to amaze...

Say goodbye to FBS? Well, say goodbye to 82 scholarships and hello to 65. Say goodbye to the amount of cash currently being donated to the program. Let that sink in. Say goodbye to ever funding a baseball program. Say goodbye to ever having more than 20k at a football game. Say goodbye to any new athletic facility. 

Stop and think of consequences before relegating yourself to a lesser status I college athletes, because they will be severe.

I don't think it's a split from FBS...sounds like putting on paper the fact that there are already 2 subdivisions in FBS. If it was an actual split, I'm in agreement with everything you said.

On 12/29/2016 at 1:13 PM, UNT90 said:

Yep, with every FBS conference champ included. 

This makes money for everyone. There is a reason the 1st round of the NCAA tournament is so popular. Americans love underdog stories. 

This too. Why are P5s able to keep such a lock on football and not on basketball (and to a lesser sense, baseball)?

[UNT90]

2 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

I don't want UNT to be so much less. I just want us to win, plain and simple, at whatever level we play at.

Our goal needs to be to win at this level and be one of those in-between schools as far as the fanbase goes (Southern Miss, Marshall, etc). If we can do that consistently, then you move onto the next step.

As of now, we aren't consistent winners in the conference and division we are in, and we don't sell out the stadium. My argument is simple: UNT needs to support what helps it WIN NOW and put butts in seats. I'm not sure, in my honest opinion, that the HoD being our national championship is going to let us be consistent winners or put butts in seats. A playoff system that we can feasibly compete in will. This is hotly debated I know, I just feel that a playoff championship where we play a UCF, Houston, Southern Miss, etc is a good thing and would mean something, especially with media backing. It's a lot different than playing Youngstown State on the Ocho.

No G5 will ever be able to beat the Bamas and Ohio States of the world. They have the most resources, fans, money, recruits, etc. They have a monopoly on championships. Boise State can't compete with them...hell, even TCU can't.

That is why I support the playoff system. We don't bring 100K to fans and attract the very best athletes and if we won our conference EVERY YEAR for 15 years then maybe we'd be that level but that would be unheard of. In G5, you will always be hampered by money, perception, recruits, scared P5s, money games, and the risk of losing your coach. UH is finding out the hard way that there is no way up anymore for the G5. There is no glass ceiling.

We are now FBS 1-AA. There is absolutely no way that a band of NIUs and UNTs can take Alabama and the NCAA to court with all their lobby and clout and win. I just don't see it. What are you going to take them to court over anyway? Antitrust? How are you going to plead your case when Bama shows their cash flow and fanbase compared to ours? Their recruits? They're simply going to argue they are a higher level. That's because THEY ARE. It's over. We're out in the cold.

What we can do is WIN and FILL APOGEE.

Sorry if this sounds pessimistic, I'm just looking at the playing field from a realistic and historical view.

You are looking t it from a defeatist, negative attitude and point of view. You want to give up because it's hard. Just like all the past UNT administrations that everyone criticizes so much.

Life is hard. Period. Want to give up? Go ahead. But this university will do that without my support going forward. 

[Ryan Munthe]

9 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

You are looking t it from a defeatist, negative attitude and point of view. You want to give up because it's hard. Just like all the past UNT administrations that everyone criticizes so much.

Life is hard. Period. Want to give up? Go ahead. But this university will do that without my support going forward. 

So typical, you can't actually give an argument without sounding like an arrogant prick. Nevermind.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Ryan Munthe

[UTSA Fan]

58 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

So typical, you can't actually give an argument without sounding like an arrogant prick. Nevermind.

G5 playoff = death

No playoff- still gives a chance to position the program to capitalize on any opportunity that may come in the future. 

No playoff doesn't guarantee moving up, but a playoff guarantees you don't. 

G5 playoff is ? and ?

Edited January 1, 2017 by UTSA Fan

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, Ryan Munthe said:

So typical, you can't actually give an argument without sounding like an arrogant prick. Nevermind.

Third time you name called in this thread.

The argument was well stated in a previous post. You don't like the argument so you become a third grader and name call.

We disagree. I think UNT can be MUCH more successful now that your former boss is gone. I want to believe that for the first time in my lifetime, the UNT administration has made athletics as much as a priority as the music department. 

You want to go back to 1986. 

This may come as a shock to you, but UNT is just as capable of being ranked #5 in the country as Houston. UNT is just as capable as W. Michigan to go 13-0 and play Wisconsin in the Cotton Bowl. 

But you would rather relegate UNT to second tier nothingness.

And you label me as negative? ??????

[GrandGreen]

I don't think any G5 school would like this solution.  But some are recognizing the futility of trying to compete against a stacked deck with ever rising costs and gigantic loses.   This is not just limited to G5's, but there are also an expanding number of P5's that are being squeezed out.   

I suspect the G5's that would back this proposal are the ones that are running out of options to try to compete at the current FB division level.  Instead of attacking the problem with what most is needed, a way to control costs and enhance competition; a retreat to a cheaper alignment is their solution.  

The NCAA is currently setup for the rich athletic programs and there are not many of them.   While there are limits to the number of players and coaches, there is no maximum for salaries and overall budgets.  Something that even the Pros try to manage to ensure some level of competitiveness.

Out of the 128 fb football programs, my guess is that over an hundred of them would be for rules that increased competitiveness by cutting or limiting costs.  These schools have the numbers but not the direction to achieve these goals.   AD's obviously, are not going to be the drivers in this kind of change.  It is going to have to come from the top.   

[Ryan Munthe]

5 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Third time you name called in this thread.

The argument was well stated in a previous post. You don't like the argument so you become a third grader and name call.

We disagree. I think UNT can be MUCH more successful now that your former boss is gone. I want to believe that for the first time in my lifetime, the UNT administration has made athletics as much as a priority as the music department. 

You want to go back to 1986. 

This may come as a shock to you, but UNT is just as capable of being ranked #5 in the country as Houston. UNT is just as capable as W. Michigan to go 13-0 and play Wisconsin in the Cotton Bowl. 

But you would rather relegate UNT to second tier nothingness.

And you label me as negative? ??????

Whatever bro. Try not to get banned again.

[UTSA Fan]

43 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Whatever bro. Try not to get banned again.

Being banned is street cred. When were you banned?

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Whatever bro. Try not to get banned again.

Great argument...

[UNT90]

18 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Furthermore 90...

You love to rail against "whore games" but what you don't understand is that the only way to win a national championship as a G5 would be to play two "whore games." Think about it. WMU did exactly what you want. Scheduled cream puff P5, beat them, beat their schedule, undefeated.

No playoffs.

Or, you can take the Houston route. Schedule a pseudo-whore game (OU paid UH, even if it was a neutral-site in the end), beat the P5 team, kick serious ass, but then let rumors of your coach leaving to better opportunities distract the team, resulting in a few losses destroying your playoff chances. 

In G5, you can be the WMU, or you can be the UH. 

Guess what? Neither went to the championship.

G5 players are the ONLY NCAA PLAYERS who are UNABLE to play for a national championship. Completely unfair bullshit.

I'm tired of the P5 bullshit. We are in the strongest G5 conference (check bowl records vs other G5, AAC is flash and talk) and nobody in CUSA would ever get a shot.

Like...this is why even Vandy recruits better than most G5 schools.

"If we went undefeated, we would be in the playoffs. At UH, you'd have to pray you got a Top 10 ranking."

 

90, why don't you take your trigger finger off the downvote button and actually discuss the topic without being rude because I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts.

First, a whore game is where a G5 is paid $1 million to got to a P5 stadium. OU traveled to Houston for a Cougar home game. That isn't a whore game. Not even close. Still waiting for Baker to fix this terrible schedule. So far he has failed to accomplish that goal. Other G5s get home games with P5s. Your former boss wanted the whore money and stated so openly. Hopefully that has changed, although there is no evidence of it yet. 

W. Michigan is 2-0 against the Big 10 this year and look to go 3-0 against Wisconsin in the Cotton Bowl. 

Again, you just want to give up and become a lower level team just to have a meaningless trophy to pkay for and refuse to acknowledge the loss in donations, TV money, attendance, and alumni interest in the program if UNT went this route.

UNT tried it once. I was there in 1989 when UNT was ranked #1 in FCS and couldn't get 10k in the stadium for a game. No one cared about a lower tier team. Do this and also watch enrollment flatline or decrease. I'm sure @FirefightnRick would also echo this frustration, as he was there at the same time. @Harry should also know better than to open this can of worms, as he sat in those stands with 8k others.

You want to repeat those numbers, follow the Munthe plan.

And you just made the G5 legal argument for them. Every team in every other NCAA division has the right and the chance to play for a title. The G5s are frozen out, which provides a woefully unfair competitive advantage to the P5. It limits the ability of a G5 program to change it's fate by being successful. It limits visibility and therefore limits the marketability of their programs to TV networks, which limits income, which further limits the ability to be competitive. Courts can't ignore such very compelling evidence.  

Or you can just be a whore to have access to the big boys a la the Rick Villarreal method. 

EDIT: Oh, and this case wil end up in  SCOTUS. No doubt about that as the P5s will do anything to protect their pile. This is where the Ryan Munthe theory of "the courts are full of P5 judges" falls extremely flat. Of the 8 Supremes, 6 graduated from FCS institutions or lower for their undergrad. So if you believe the Munthe theory, the G5s have already won this lawsuit. Only  2 justices have undergrads from a P5 and both oddly enough from Stanford (Bryer and Kennedy). Both  often side with the liberal wing. Coincidence? Hardly!!!!!!1!1!!

Edited January 2, 2017 by UNT90

[FirefightnRick]

I absolutely agree with a class action lawsuit.  Tulane nearly had it rolling with their legal threat a decade ago.  That needs to be explored again.

As for our FCS days, 88' was when we were ranked #1 nationally for 6 to 8 weeks mostly because we had beaten Tech and embarrassed Texas early in the season.  Once we lost the eventual conference championship to SFA on our homecoming we couldn't draw flies.

Our enrollment has doubled since those days and we have now played on the bigger stage and our fan and donor base expects that, plus the administration has made the most significant investment in the program than at any other time in our history. 

A G5 playoff would kill all of that.  

 

Rick 

[Quoner]

Glad to see you guys got to spend New Year's doing what you love the most. It's important to set the tone for what you want 2017 to be.

[UNT90]

7 minutes ago, FirefightnRick said:

I absolutely agree with a class action lawsuit.  Tulane nearly had it rolling with their legal threat a decade ago.  That needs to be explored again.

As for our FCS days, 88' was when we were ranked #1 nationally for 6 to 8 weeks mostly because we had beaten Tech and embarrassed Texas early in the season.  Once we lost the eventual conference championship to SFA on our homecoming we couldn't draw flies.

Our enrollment has doubled since those days and we have now played on the bigger stage and our fan and donor base expects that, plus the administration has made the most significant investment in the program than at any other time in our history. 

A G5 playoff would kill all of that.  

 

Rick 

1988, my mistake. And what do you think attendance was for that 1988 SFA (ranked #9 at season's end) and #1 ranked UNT team was? Maybe Rick has a better memory than I, but I don't recall but about 10k being in attendance, if that. 

Interesting note is that Northwestern St (La) actually won conference that year with a 6-0 record. Northwestern St. finished the year ranked #8, SFA ranked #9, and UNT ranked #10. UNT played on the road at #6 Marshall and lost 7-0. Both SFA and NW St advanced to the second round before losing. 

If anyone can find official attendance for that SFA game, it would be interesting to know, as that is the ceiling for attendance if you create a lower tier for the G5s. 

[Wag Tag]

What if you had a championship game between the MAC and C-USA and then a separate one between AAC and the MWC?

I am starting to understand the argument on the lower, lower tier teams like a ULM.

Our goal should be the AAC or MWC.

[UNT90]

4 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

What if you had a championship game between the MAC and C-USA and then a separate one between AAC and the MWC?

I am starting to understand the argument on the lower, lower tier teams like a ULM.

Our goal should be the AAC or MWC.

Our goal should be to join a P5 conference. 

 

[untjim1995]

44 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Our goal should be to join a P5 conference. 

 

P5 conference will be a dead term when the Big XII dies off by 2025.

Then the G5s will get some additions. It's why I wanted in the MWC so badly--that league will always get a chance to play OOC games and have its champion play for a BCS bowl game, at the very least. Ditto for the AAC, which SMU blocks us from ever joining.

Ill be the first to admit that I just don't see us ever getting admitted to the MWC or any other conference above us. They can get bigger and better names than UNT when the Big XII folds, both in Texas and outside of the state.

We let ourselves fall to i-aa at the absolute wrong time in history, when it was basically decided to stay down there for 12 years, then move up to continue playing in a toilet bowl facility while scheduling every bodybag game we could get. That philosophy allowed us to have an AD for 15 years, who watched over a destruction of any potential move upward. Today, unlike 1982, we may get officially punted downward for good, and not of our choice or volition. Maybe a lawsuit works and the have-nots get to stay included as bodybag opponents for the power conference giants--but I know that the media, major conferences, and the NCAA don't want that to occur. As always, follow that money trail to where things end up--and this one won't end up as us being peers in any way, shape, or form, with Texas, OU, Arkansas, A&M, etc...

[UNT90]

24 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

P5 conference will be a dead term when the Big XII dies off by 2025.

Then the G5s will get some additions. It's why I wanted in the MWC so badly--that league will always get a chance to play OOC games and have its champion play for a BCS bowl game, at the very least. Ditto for the AAC, which SMU blocks us from ever joining.

Ill be the first to admit that I just don't see us ever getting admitted to the MWC or any other conference above us. They can get bigger and better names than UNT when the Big XII folds, both in Texas and outside of the state.

We let ourselves fall to i-aa at the absolute wrong time in history, when it was basically decided to stay down there for 12 years, then move up to continue playing in a toilet bowl facility while scheduling every bodybag game we could get. That philosophy allowed us to have an AD for 15 years, who watched over a destruction of any potential move upward. Today, unlike 1982, we may get officially punted downward for good, and not of our choice or volition. Maybe a lawsuit works and the have-nots get to stay included as bodybag opponents for the power conference giants--but I know that the media, major conferences, and the NCAA don't want that to occur. As always, follow that money trail to where things end up--and this one won't end up as us being peers in any way, shape, or form, with Texas, OU, Arkansas, A&M, etc...

Problem is a class action anti-trust suit can award damages. For the past, what, 15 years? Lawsuits are about risk/reward. The G5 has very little risk and a huge reward. The P5 has a huge risk with a moderate to low reward. 

The P5 and especially the NCAA has a HUGE incentive to settle the lawsuit. That's pressure. The P5 leaving the NCAA and going out on their own is huge pressure on the NCAA not to lose their cash cows. Having to admit they are a semi pro league and open up an unregulated pay scale for college players is a huge risk for the P5s.

Please, tell me the risk for the G5s. Because I don't see any. 

[UTSA Fan]

3 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Problem is a class action anti-trust suit can award damages. For the past, what, 15 years? Lawsuits are about risk/reward. The G5 has very little risk and a huge reward. The P5 has a huge risk with a moderate to low reward. 

The P5 and especially the NCAA has a HUGE incentive to settle the lawsuit. That's pressure. The P5 leaving the NCAA and going out on their own is huge pressure on the NCAA not to lose their cash cows. Having to admit they are a semi ppro league and open up an unregulated pay scale for college players is a huge risk for the P5s.

Please, tell me the risk for the G5s. Because I don't see any. 

The compromise will be the NCAA facilitating collaborarion between G5 and P4 in exchange to keep the image of "student" athlete. I'm willing to bet there is A LOT the NCAA is willing to compromise to keep that.

[KRAM1]

6 hours ago, UNT90 said:

 

W. Michigan is 2-0 against the Big 10 this year and look to go 3-0 against Wisconsin in the Cotton Bowl. 

Looking more like 2-1 with Wisconsin up 14-0 in mid-second quarter.  But, W. Mich on the move...finally.  Fingers crossed for this David!

[untjim1995]

41 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Problem is a class action anti-trust suit can award damages. For the past, what, 15 years? Lawsuits are about risk/reward. The G5 has very little risk and a huge reward. The P5 has a huge risk with a moderate to low reward. 

The P5 and especially the NCAA has a HUGE incentive to settle the lawsuit. That's pressure. The P5 leaving the NCAA and going out on their own is huge pressure on the NCAA not to lose their cash cows. Having to admit they are a semi pro league and open up an unregulated pay scale for college players is a huge risk for the P5s.

Please, tell me the risk for the G5s. Because I don't see any. 

Why hasn't this happened yet? Because the G5s have some great law schools...something tells me that they know the outcome and the lost money from no longer getting those P5 dollars.

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, KRAM1 said:

Looking more like 2-1 with Wisconsin up 14-0 in mid-second quarter.  But, W. Mich on the move...finally.  Fingers crossed for this David!

17-10 in the third. Great game. 

52 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Why hasn't this happened yet? Because the G5s have some great law schools...something tells me that they know the outcome and the lost money from no longer getting those P5 dollars.

They aren't united. That's why there has been no law suit. Hell, just look at the article quoted in this thread. The P5 has used whore money to divide and conquer. Look no further than our last AD, who would have been opposed to this for the fear of losing that whore money he so openly coveted. How did that work out for him and UNT? 

The P5 is 100% together on ther goals. G5s need to learn from them. Solidify, file the lawsuit, and put the P5 on defense.

For the first time in their existence.

Also, having ADs and coaches who try to use G5s to hit the P5 jackpot is another reason. It's also another point of systematic competitive disadvantage for a law suit.

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by UNT90

[KRAM1]

43 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

17-10 in the third. Great game. 

Indeed it was! W. Mich only lost by eight. 2-1 against the Big Ten.  Not bad for that David.  Good on you W. Mich. ?

[FirefightnRick]

The '88 SFA game was one of only two sell outs(pre-expansion) at Fouts that I ever saw.  So 20,500 and some change.

BTW...Western Michigan spends $8 Million of their $29 Million athletic budget on football.

Wisconsin spends $26 Million of their $122 Million athletic budget on football.

 

Rick

Edited January 2, 2017 by FirefightnRick