MGB: Recruiting state of the union -- it's too early to panic

Cr1028 · December 13, 2016

6 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I think if you are uncommitted in January and you only have 2 offers, that says a lot about what programs think/know about you, especially at QB.

And simmer down. Cade Pearson isn't getting offered by UT.

Luke Falk only had offers from FCS, Idaho, and Wyoming.

Pat Mahomes only had offers from Tech, Houston, and Rice.

Just because you don't have an extensive offer list doesn't mean you can't be a record setting quarterback in this offense.

Cr1028 · December 13, 2016

49 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

I want to live a day where we accept and understand where we stand as an athletic department while being ready to hold all accountable for whatever failures take place. That means we have to eventually stop pulling out extreme outliers and creating excuses for most things, if not all things, that don't go in our favor. We need to see it, acknowledge it, and call it out as fan base. Because if we don't, we will be sitting in the exact same cess pool for the far foreseeable future.

Holding all accountable?? Littrell has been here 1 year. Wren Baker has been here 5 months.

Littrell improved on last year's record by 500%. He is the second coach in our 100+ year history to go to a bowl in year 1.

There is no recruiting failure unless we look back in 2020 at the results of the 2017 recruiting class and determine if it was a dud. Our 2010 class from Todd Dodge was ranked 117th and contained 5 players that were part of NFL teams during the preseason with 2 of them being active roster members and potential pro bowlers. It was also the foundation for the 2013 HOD bowl team. I'm sure some ranked above 117 would've gladly had that class.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Cr1028

UNT90 · December 13, 2016

33 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Luke Falk only had offers from FCS, Idaho, and Wyoming.

Pat Mahomes only had offers from Tech, Houston, and Rice.

Just because you don't have an extensive offer list doesn't mean you can't be a record setting quarterback in this offense.

Cherry picking the exceptions is fun, but it's a TERRIBLE recruiting strategy.

It would be interesting to know the date of that quote you posted from our DC. My guess is it was right after the signing of last year's class...

Cr1028 · December 13, 2016

6 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Cherry picking the exceptions is fun, but it's a TERRIBLE recruiting strategy.

It would be interesting to know the date of that quote you posted from our DC. My guess is it was right after the signing of last year's class...

It was his exit interview from Georgia. Sometime before January 14, 2016 when Zach Barnett picked it up.

Ok, so since I'm picking exceptions, whats the rule? Go grab the high percentage guys. How many of the recruits in Alabama's #1 ranked recruiting class will ever make an impact at Alabama. Not many. The big guys get busts just like we do, Garrett Gilbert.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Cr1028

UNT90 · December 13, 2016

Easy to say when you are recruiting to Georgia and getting 4 star recruits on a yearly basis.

It is the Jimmy and the Joes that matter.

Cr1028 · December 13, 2016

2 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Easy to say when you are recruiting to Georgia and getting 4 star recruits on a yearly basis.

It is the Jimmy and the Joes that matter.

Tell that to Charlie Strong and Les Miles.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Cr1028

Monkeypox · December 13, 2016

I don't really want to wait or ignore recruiting failures like we did with Mac. He was also 5-7 in his first year.

So far, we're looking at another class in the bottom half of CUSA. Sure, it could change, but we're never going to be any better than we have been unless we start recruiting better. That's a fact. Sure, we had another good recruiting class that took us to a single bowl game. And then we returned to the laughing-stock that we've been.

Never have I seen a fanbase so excited that we've had a couple of recruiting classes in 20+years outperform their ranking. You can't discount the 80% of the time we've been irrelevant in order to say our "strategy" is successful.

For 20 years, people on this board have excused our recruiting performance by explaining how star ratings are made up and they don't matter and Drew Brees blah blah blah...

And we've sucked consistently for that time. Meanwhile, the teams that consistently recruit better than us win more than us. It's almost like these things are related.

Caw Caw · December 13, 2016

You want to talk good coaches who value recruiting how about Nick Saben. Here are a few excerpts from a sports illustrated article about his recruiting. Not his development, not his coaching. Alabama doesn't run crazy complex schemes. Nick Saban's empire is built on the back of great recruiting classes and beating you man-to-man for all 11 positions. To quote the man himself: “I’m nothing without my players." He told the AD at 'Bama when he was hired that no one would out recruit him. He utilizes 60+ staff members to achieve this goal. Yes some coaches can do more with less, or find guys who excel in a system. But if it was all about talent development why is there a direct connection in consecutive #1 recruiting classes and national championships?

“In the NFL, you only get one first-round draft pick, and that’s if it hadn’t already been traded away,” Saban once told me. “In college, I could recruit ten players with first-round talent every year.”

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Though Saban has learned something about talent evaluation at each of the 13 stops in his coaching career, much of his gift for recognizing good players is innate. “He’s like someone who can identify a thoroughbred racing horse at a young age,” says Glen Mason, Saban’s fellow assistant coach at Ohio State in the early 1980s. “He can just look at a high school player and say, ‘That guy is a winner.’ ”

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In 1984, when he was the defensive coordinator at Michigan State, Saban skipped his mother-in-law’s Christmas Eve party to hang out with the grandmother of a highly touted wideout named Andre Rison. Saban drank beer with her until 3 a.m. While he didn’t earn any points from his family, Saban did land Rison, who excelled for the Spartans and, later, for the Atlanta Falcons in the NFL.

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Saban does all he can to learn absolutely everything about a recruit. “He’s out there prodding the aunt, the uncle, the mom, the coaches, the kid himself,” says Dallas Cowboys wide receivers coach Derek Dooley, who was Saban’s recruiting coordinator in Baton Rouge. Saban has secretaries who keep him updated on each individual recruit, who have been known to drill down to such granular details as a recruit’s most recent score on an English test. Gary Tranquill, Saban’s offensive coordinator at Michigan State, says that Saban was so prepared for some recruiting interviews that “he literally knew what brand of chewing gum that kid preferred.”

Saban was so aggressive on the recruiting trail that, in 2008, his peers had finally had enough. That’s when they successfully lobbied the NCAA to stop recruiting in the spring—when coaches were allowed to go on the road and evaluate talent—something at which Saban excelled. The new bylaw was dubbed the “Saban Rule,” which outraged its namesake.

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“The other coaches sometimes come off as used-car salesmen and Baptist ministers—he’s not like that,” says a former Crimson Tide offensive coach. “A lot of these parents aren’t making a lot of money, and they see this guy come in, just off the plane, wearing a suit, a guy with a plan. They don’t see many people like that. What they saw in him was a man who was blunt, straightforward and successful.”

Alabama's staff spends more hours than any other team in the country and more money on RECRUITING. We obviously don't have those luxuries but we aren't asking for hte same result yet either. Kids can outkick their projected coverage, and that comes down to spotting/evaluating talent for specific roles on your team. BUT, that's not what we want to rely on, because it's way less likely than recruiting success to translate.

Full link: http://www.si.com/college-football/2015/09/10/how-alabamas-nick-saban-so-successful-recruiting-trail

Edited December 13, 2016 by Caw Caw

Monkeypox · December 13, 2016

1 minute ago, Cr1028 said:

Tell that to Charlie Strong and Les Miles.

Well, let's see:

UNT vs Charlie Strong: 0-1, 38-7

UNT vs Les Miles: 0-3, 56-3, 41-3, 41-14

I don't think there's anything for us to say to them. Probably has nothing to do with the talent levels at LSU or UT for those game, which are, of course, completely divorced from recruiting rankings, which are meaningless according to people on this board.

UTSA Fan · December 13, 2016

What terrifies me is I've read comments stating it will take 2 to 3 years to start recruiting well or highly sought-after recruits are not that important because it's the system that will win or the system will get the players. I don't think any of those are true. I'm hoping those comments don't reflect the coaching staffs attitude toward recruiting. Another worrisome attitude I've read on here is re:utsa recruiting which basically says, "ya, but let's see if they sign/qualify!" We need to position ourselves for success, not hope for the failure of other teams to be competitive. It's not NSD, but now that the black out period is here, it's kind of like the last 2 minuets of the game.

Edited December 13, 2016 by UTSA Fan

UNT90 · December 13, 2016

19 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

I don't really want to wait or ignore recruiting failures like we did with Mac. He was also 5-7 in his first year.

So far, we're looking at another class in the bottom half of CUSA. Sure, it could change, but we're never going to be any better than we have been unless we start recruiting better. That's a fact. Sure, we had another good recruiting class that took us to a single bowl game. And then we returned to the laughing-stock that we've been.

Never have I seen a fanbase so excited that we've had a couple of recruiting classes in 20+years outperform their ranking. You can't discount the 80% of the time we've been irrelevant in order to say our "strategy" is successful.

For 20 years, people on this board have excused our recruiting performance by explaining how star ratings are made up and they don't matter and Drew Brees blah blah blah...

And we've sucked consistently for that time. Meanwhile, the teams that consistently recruit better than us win more than us. It's almost like these things are related.

Back to my worst fan base in America comment. It's ok to lose at UNT. That is the biggest problem this program faces.

Cerebus · December 13, 2016

On 12/12/2016 at 2:29 PM, Army of Dad said:

@Cerebus would you like to chime in on this one?

One of the things you have to remember is that the recruiting services did not really exist for most of Dickey's time here. Rivals was started in 1998, but it had no coverage of recruits outside of the big programs until well into the 2000s.

One thing that has been around from before our return to 1A/FBS until now is the Dallas Morning News State Top 100, which is why I have always used it as a basis of comparing recruiting over that time period.

Mac signed 1 DaMN State Top 100, the now departed Goree.
Dodge signed Riley, but he was ranked there as an athlete not as a QB.
Simon signed 2, but neither made it to Denton.
SL has not signed one yet.
Dickey signed 8 (Brandon Kennedy, Randy Gardner, Taylor Casey, Jonas Buckles, Cody Spencer, Roy Bishop, Jamario Thomas)

The bulk of those were signed in two classes, not one. Bishop and Jamario were not part of those big classes. I also think people undervalue how incredible Booger was. If we could sign a player that had the same impact booger had, we would be the #1 defense in CUSA overnight. I don't really expect to ever see another player as impactful as Brandon Kennedy at NT in my lifetime, I was lucky to be able to see him play.

Booger could stop the run, the could sack the QB, he could chase down screens. You need someone to beat a triple team, sack the QB and strip the ball? Booger did it.

Dickey was also able to get recruits with plenty of other offer from out of state. Mike Pruitt was the national JUCO player of the year. Darrell Daniels was highly sought after when he signed here. Patrick Cobbs was an Oklahoma Top 10 and had a long offer list when he signed. Shawn Early was a Florida Top 100.

To me one of the worst decisions RV ever made was let a coach who had proven he could recruit here go, just because of clashing personalities. To be clear, when I say "here", I mean 2000 era North Texas. Playing at Fouts, in the Big West and Sun Belt, with no meeting rooms, with no film rooms, with no weight rooms, losing assistants every year because of our terrible budget, without even having a room big enough for the whole team to be able to sit together.

People always downplay recruit rankings, but it's not a coincidence our best years came when we won recruiting battles for recruits that were highly valued by other coaches. We still haven't found a coach who could recruit at Dickey''s level, I am hoping SL can change that. But as of right now I am worried.

Ben Gooding · December 13, 2016

2 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

One of the things you have to remember is that the recruiting services did not really exist for most of Dickey's time here. Rivals was started in 1998, but it had no coverage of recruits outside of the big programs until well into the 2000s.

One thing that has been around from before our return to 1A/FBS until now is the Dallas Morning News State Top 100, which is why I have always used it as a basis of comparing recruiting over that time period.

Mac signed 1 DaMN State Top 100, the now departed Goree.

Dodge signed Riley, but he was ranked there as an athlete not as a QB.

Simon signed 2, but neither made it to Denton.

SL has not signed one yet.

Dickey signed 8 (Brandon Kennedy, Randy Gardner, Taylor Casey, Jonas Buckles, Cody Spencer, Roy Bishop, Jamario Thomas)

The bulk of those were signed in two classes, not one. Bishop and Jamario were not part of those big classes. I also think people undervalue how incredible Booger was. If we could sign a player that had the same impact booger had, we would be the #1 defense in CUSA overnight. I don't really expect to ever see another player as impactful as Brandon Kennedy at NT in my lifetime, I was lucky to be able to see him play.

Booger could stop the run, the could sack the QB, he could chase down screens. You need someone to beat a triple team, sack the QB and strip the ball? Booger did it.

Dickey was also able to get recruits with plenty of other offer from out of state. Mike Pruitt was the national JUCO player of the year. Darrell Daniels was highly sought after when he signed here. Patrick Cobbs was an Oklahoma Top 10 and had a long offer list when he signed. Shawn Early was a Florida Top 100.

To me one of the worst decisions RV ever made was let a coach who had proven he could recruit here go, just because of clashing personalities. To be clear, when I say "here", I mean 2000 era North Texas. Playing at Fouts, in the Big West and Sun Belt, with no meeting rooms, with no film rooms, with no weight rooms, losing assistants every year because of our terrible budget, without even having a room big enough for the whole team to be able to sit together.

People always downplay recruit rankings, but it's not a coincidence our best years came when we won recruiting battles for recruits that were highly valued by other coaches. We still haven't found a coach who could recruit at Dickey''s level, I am hoping SL can change that. But as of right now I am worried.

#ThanksRV.

It's weird that this fan base continually thinks they must downplay recruiting just on the premise of not being any good at it. We have to get better at recruiting. It goes hand in hand with on the field success at every single football playing university. But here, everyone is so quick to chalk it up as a "meh." That thought process has to stop. The recruiting has to improve. It must. I genuinely thought Seth Littrell and his staff being hired we would see an uptick in these results. If anything, it has stayed status quo, if not slightly declined.

Army of Dad · December 13, 2016

Thanks @Cerebus, that's about what I thought we'd get from you (and no way I could cover that era).

virtual +1

Monkeypox · December 13, 2016

11 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Dickey signed 8 (Brandon Kennedy, Randy Gardner, Taylor Casey, Jonas Buckles, Cody Spencer, Roy Bishop, Jamario Thomas)

The bulk of those were signed in two classes, not one. Bishop and Jamario were not part of those big classes. I also think people undervalue how incredible Booger was. If we could sign a player that had the same impact booger had, we would be the #1 defense in CUSA overnight. I don't really expect to ever see another player as impactful as Brandon Kennedy at NT in my lifetime, I was lucky to be able to see him play.

Booger could stop the run, the could sack the QB, he could chase down screens. You need someone to beat a triple team, sack the QB and strip the ball? Booger did it.

Absolutely. And Booger was an example of a guy who was "too short", but still highly rated and regarded back in those days. If he had been 6'2", he would've been playing at Arkansas like his brother. And I'm not sure he'd end up here today, TBH, because of the ever-increasing attention the internet gets recruits, and the greater field of competition. The "stealth recruiting" days are over. That strategy might have worked when kids and their coaches and their friends weren't tweeting 24/7, but it's dead now.

Booger was the DMN Defensive Player of the Year, First Team All-State, First Team All-District for 3 consecutive years, and a DMN Top 100 coming out of high school.

He had 44 TFL in his final 2 years at UNT, with his senior year played on a bum knee.

Cerebus · December 13, 2016

1 minute ago, Monkeypox said:

And I'm not sure he'd end up here today, TBH, because of the ever-increasing attention the internet gets recruits, and the greater field of competition.

I agree with this, it is harder to find true gems that other schools don't know about. However, schools can still only give out 25 scholarships a year. The coaching staff HAS to be able to go out and get that next level of talent. That next level of talent can make you dominate at teh G5 level.

Other schools in CUSA can do it. We need to be able to do the same.

UNT90 · December 13, 2016

28 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

One of the things you have to remember is that the recruiting services did not really exist for most of Dickey's time here. Rivals was started in 1998, but it had no coverage of recruits outside of the big programs until well into the 2000s.

One thing that has been around from before our return to 1A/FBS until now is the Dallas Morning News State Top 100, which is why I have always used it as a basis of comparing recruiting over that time period.

Mac signed 1 DaMN State Top 100, the now departed Goree.

Dodge signed Riley, but he was ranked there as an athlete not as a QB.

Simon signed 2, but neither made it to Denton.

SL has not signed one yet.

Dickey signed 8 (Brandon Kennedy, Randy Gardner, Taylor Casey, Jonas Buckles, Cody Spencer, Roy Bishop, Jamario Thomas)

The bulk of those were signed in two classes, not one. Bishop and Jamario were not part of those big classes. I also think people undervalue how incredible Booger was. If we could sign a player that had the same impact booger had, we would be the #1 defense in CUSA overnight. I don't really expect to ever see another player as impactful as Brandon Kennedy at NT in my lifetime, I was lucky to be able to see him play.

Booger could stop the run, the could sack the QB, he could chase down screens. You need someone to beat a triple team, sack the QB and strip the ball? Booger did it.

Dickey was also able to get recruits with plenty of other offer from out of state. Mike Pruitt was the national JUCO player of the year. Darrell Daniels was highly sought after when he signed here. Patrick Cobbs was an Oklahoma Top 10 and had a long offer list when he signed. Shawn Early was a Florida Top 100.

To me one of the worst decisions RV ever made was let a coach who had proven he could recruit here go, just because of clashing personalities. To be clear, when I say "here", I mean 2000 era North Texas. Playing at Fouts, in the Big West and Sun Belt, with no meeting rooms, with no film rooms, with no weight rooms, losing assistants every year because of our terrible budget, without even having a room big enough for the whole team to be able to sit together.

People always downplay recruit rankings, but it's not a coincidence our best years came when we won recruiting battles for recruits that were highly valued by other coaches. We still haven't found a coach who could recruit at Dickey''s level, I am hoping SL can change that. But as of right now I am worried.

Well, if SL isn't the guy, WB did work with Dickey at Memphis. Could we see Dickey version 2 at UNT? Would Dickey be licking his chops to recruit to what we have now?

Completely agree about Booger. The biggest surprise was when he went undrafted and didn't stick with the NFL team that signed him as a free agent (Denver, I believe?). I thought for sure he would be an 8 year NFLer.

I don't know why no one else has been able to match Dickey's efforts. Especially DMac and SL (if this recruiting season holds to form). I don't know why we are getting our teeth kicked in head to head by UTSA. It makes no sense.

Cerebus · December 13, 2016

23 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

The biggest surprise was when he went undrafted and didn't stick with the NFL team that signed him as a free agent

Not surprising. Hurt his knee his senior year and it made him less explosive.

24 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I don't know why no one else has been able to match Dickey's efforts.

I don't know exactly what makes one coach a better recruiter than another. I think a lot of it comes down to salesmanship. You have to convince the kid you know what you are doing, that you value them and believe in them, that you can maximize their potential. You have to sell the parents that their kids will prosper under you, even if they don't go pro.

I really thought what held Dickey back was the terrible facilities. They aren't an excuse anymore but our recruiting hasn't taken off. It wasn't just Fouts. A kid will step into the stadium less than 40-50 times their entire career. They will walk into the weight rooms, film rooms, therapy rooms, etc hundreds of times a year.

Our facilities are near the top G5 level, I wish Dickey and his staff could have recruited to that.

UNT90 · December 13, 2016

I wouldn't say top of the line CUSA, but way ahead of what Dickey had when he was here.

I had forgotten about Kennedy's knee injury. Also probably a factor in why he wasn't drafted.

greenminer · December 13, 2016

1 hour ago, Cerebus said:

Dickey signed 8 (Brandon Kennedy, Randy Gardner, Taylor Casey, Jonas Buckles, Cody Spencer, Roy Bishop, Jamario Thomas)

Tangent: we had a ton of other great players from that era not on this list.

When you have guys like that mentioned above, it makes everyone else's job easier. What a fun era, with spectacular players making better players of those around them.

2 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

Tell that to Charlie Strong and Les Miles.

87651635.ExdwAP6i.DSC06554_s.jpg

Monkeypox · December 13, 2016

2 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I wouldn't say top of the line CUSA, but way ahead of what Dickey had when he was here.

I had forgotten about Kennedy's knee injury. Also probably a factor in why he wasn't drafted.

It was a big factor. He still had 20 TFL his senior year, but he wasn't the same player.

He had 24 TFL his junior year. That was #3 in the country.

And he could play point guard.

GrandGreen · December 14, 2016

Can't believe anyone thinks Dickey was a good recruiter. He had one stellar class in 2001, which he never remotely came close to duplicating. He picked up a few good to great players other than that class but his classes from 2001 got weaker and weaker.

A lot is made of Dickey's lack of resources compared to today. However, his success was at a time when NT's budget was greater than most of the Belt.

I have always thought Dickey was a good on field football coach and frankly didn't get enough credit for his magnificent 4 year run in the Belt. However, it is almost impossible to recruit to an University, that you constantly bad mouth.

Dickey had a good original strategy for recruiting. He basically waited till the P5 teams filled most of their slots and went for the borderline players that didn't get that big offer. I don't think he even tried to early commit players. This worked for a while, but other bottom tier teams started following that strategy and just out working NT.

Whether Dickey could be successful here with the current resources is an interesting debate. Dickey had a lot of issues when he was here and maybe he is better equipped now. However, I would never support returning Dickey to NT in any position.

Harry · December 14, 2016

33 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Can't believe anyone thinks Dickey was a good recruiter.

Once he got his feet wet, he was pretty darn good given the resources he had at the time. He had ZERO facilities, a bad conference and a shoestring budget. His best recruiting assistants were lured away because we wouldn't even try to match what they were offered. It was like a revolving door. At his peak, and during the bowl run, he had positioned us to get the very best juco transfers in the conference. He could sell them on the fact we were the only team that would take them to a bowl. I know that for a fact. What we wouldn't give to be in that position now. Hopefully Seth will get us there.

Wag Tag · December 14, 2016

If there is a P5 we might need to worry about going after some of our recruits it will be Baylor! With all the things hanging over their heads they will have to move further down the food chain! How do you sell a program that will be put on some type of suspension?

BTG_Fan1 · December 14, 2016

4 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

Luke Falk only had offers from FCS, Idaho, and Wyoming.

Pat Mahomes only had offers from Tech, Houston, and Rice.

Just because you don't have an extensive offer list doesn't mean you can't be a record setting quarterback in this offense.

What is crazy is Mahomes was the 3rd string QB for Tech behind Webb and Mayfield...