Should we be worried?

TheReal_jayD · December 4, 2016

Texas State had 2 wins in the Fun Belt. They are sitting at 24 commits. Several of the last hose had UNT offers. We sit at 11 commits. They have had 4 commits in the last 20 hours. The is more than UNT has had in the last 30 days...

southsideguy · December 4, 2016

we should always be worried

djohnnie · December 4, 2016

Like this one you mean?

http://drchighschoolblog.dentonrc.com/2016/12/football-lake-dallas-lineman-commits-to-texas-state.html/?_ga=1.239531723.991809513.1462854857

djohnnie · December 4, 2016

Maybe a bowl game and some success will be able to turn some recruits like him our way? Here is to hoping.

GMG

Edited December 4, 2016 by djohnnie

BillySee58 · December 5, 2016

From my experience following recruiting, the good recruiting coaches start getting good pulls right off the bat, and don't need on-field success to start getting the substance on the recruiting trail.

Withers at Texas State is an example, as is Frank Wilson at UTSA who I believe had the top class in CUSA before he ever coached a game at UTSA. PJ Fleck signed the top class in the MAC in 2014 by getting some good recruits before his first season started (in 2013) and was able to keep that momentum rolling in recruiting despite going 1-11 that year. Tom Herman was getting 5-star commits (Oliver and Elliott who eventually signed elsewhere) before he ever coached a game at UH. Butch Jones in 2014 signed a top 5 class at Tennessee despite going 5-7 that year.

Littrell doesn't seem to be a bad recruiting head coach, but I don't see him threatening for a top CUSA class or getting a bunch of players with head-turning offer lists. And I don't think winning suddenly makes that happen. Doesn't mean he won't keep this thing trending up and get us some all-conference guys. Also, his opportunistic recruiting helps offset some potential deficiencies in winning true head-to-head battles.

DeepGreen · December 5, 2016

It would certainly be interesting to compare football recruiting budgets with Texas State, nUTSAk, La Tech, and UNT. I would bet money we are last in money allocated to recruiting.

Wag Tag · December 5, 2016

4 hours ago, TheReal_jayD said:

Texas State had 2 wins in the Fun Belt. They are sitting at 24 commits. Several of the last hose had UNT offers. We sit at 11 commits. They have had 4 commits in the last 20 hours. The is more than UNT has had in the last 30 days...

Are we loosing recruits to schools we should not be loosing to? TS is currently ranked 74th and 1st in The Sun Belt. They have some attractive local commits and commits we have offered! Even if we go heavy Juco we need to see some action and not loose anybody to a school like a TS! I also believe our budget has been increased to have more of a presence. We saw Ek all over last year!

BTG_Fan1 · December 5, 2016

How many of these recruits could/would flip if we were to offer to them? I think UNT maybe slightly more conservative with who we offer to instead of offering to anyone(not saying these other places do) but I also think with how our season is going maybe our coaches have spent more time gameplaying than recruiting know the benefits of a bowl bid/win

GMG_Dallas · December 5, 2016

13 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

I also think with how our season is going maybe our coaches have spent more time gameplaying than recruiting know the benefits of a bowl bid/win

I would agree with you but UTSA finished 6-6 with two of those loses being against P5 schools and beat us in our game.

Edited December 5, 2016 by GMG_Dallas

Caw Caw · December 5, 2016

2 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

From my experience following recruiting, the good recruiting coaches start getting good pulls right off the bat, and don't need on-field success to start getting the substance on the recruiting trail.

Withers at Texas State is an example, as is Frank Wilson at UTSA who I believe had the top class in CUSA before he ever coached a game at UTSA. PJ Fleck signed the top class in the MAC in 2014 by getting some good recruits before his first season started (in 2013) and was able to keep that momentum rolling in recruiting despite going 1-11 that year. Tom Herman was getting 5-star commits (Oliver and Elliott who eventually signed elsewhere) before he ever coached a game at UH. Butch Jones in 2014 signed a top 5 class at Tennessee despite going 5-7 that year.

Littrell doesn't seem to be a bad recruiting head coach, but I don't see him threatening for a top CUSA class or getting a bunch of players with head-turning offer lists. And I don't think winning suddenly makes that happen. Doesn't mean he won't keep this thing trending up and get us some all-conference guys. Also, his opportunistic recruiting helps offset some potential deficiencies in winning true head-to-head battles.

What separates the success then if it isn't winning? Is it pure salesmanship ?

Ben Gooding · December 5, 2016

3 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

From my experience following recruiting, the good recruiting coaches start getting good pulls right off the bat, and don't need on-field success to start getting the substance on the recruiting trail.

Withers at Texas State is an example, as is Frank Wilson at UTSA who I believe had the top class in CUSA before he ever coached a game at UTSA. PJ Fleck signed the top class in the MAC in 2014 by getting some good recruits before his first season started (in 2013) and was able to keep that momentum rolling in recruiting despite going 1-11 that year. Tom Herman was getting 5-star commits (Oliver and Elliott who eventually signed elsewhere) before he ever coached a game at UH. Butch Jones in 2014 signed a top 5 class at Tennessee despite going 5-7 that year.

Littrell doesn't seem to be a bad recruiting head coach, but I don't see him threatening for a top CUSA class or getting a bunch of players with head-turning offer lists. And I don't think winning suddenly makes that happen. Doesn't mean he won't keep this thing trending up and get us some all-conference guys. Also, his opportunistic recruiting helps offset some potential deficiencies in winning true head-to-head battles.

If by not threatening to be a top CUSA class you mean 12th of 14 teams, then I agree. There is currently no improvement from McCarneys first few classes to Littrells first few classes (and yes, that includes Dan's short term recruiting period his 1st offseason). If anything, McCarney's first couple classes were better as it currently stands. Sleep on that, MGN.

And the @TheReal_jayD gets -1's for being upfront with our lack of progress and other program's success. And he's more in tune with recruiting tendencies than many.

This board, where butterflies and teddy bears only reign supreme.

1 hour ago, Caw Caw said:

What separates the success then if it isn't winning? Is it pure salesmanship ?

Yes. Frank Wilson has gotten to where he is because he can bullshit well with kids and talk a high game on wherever he happens to be.

BillySee58 · December 5, 2016

1 minute ago, Ben Gooding said:

If by not threatening to be a top CUSA class you mean 12th of 14 teams, then I agree. There is currently no improvement from McCarneys first few classes to Littrells first few classes (and yes, that includes Dan's short term recruiting period his 1st offseason). If anything, McCarney's first couple classes were better as it currently stands. Sleep on that, MGN.

And the @TheReal_jayD gets -1's for being upfront with our lack of progress and other program's success. And he's more in tune with recruiting tendencies than many.

This board, where butterflies and teddy bears only reign supreme.

Going by offer lists, Littrell's 2016 class would've ranked between Mccarney's 2nd best class (2015) and his 3rd best class (2011). And, obviously, behind Mccarney's best class (2014). This class looks on track to be similar to the 2016 class.

But yeah, it's a shame this board is so strongly opposed to any hint of being critical of Littrell. You can support the guy, be a fan of him, and still critically evaluate the state of the program.

1 hour ago, Caw Caw said:

What separates the success then if it isn't winning? Is it pure salesmanship ?

I think salesmanship is an overwhelming part of the equation. Good salesmen can use any situation to their advantage. Have a worse record than the team you're recruiting against? Pitch playing time and chance to be part of turnaround. Have a better record? Pitch stability, championships, chance to make NFL, etc. Anyone can identify these pitches, but what separates the good recruiters from the pack is their ability to get these recruits to really buy what they're pitching.

Recruits will say different reasons brought them to committing, but the coaches are the ones who get them to buy into those justifications for committing. Winning does nothing but help, but it isn't going to yield top-of-the-conference classes for subpar or average recruiting staffs. Recruiting is too competitive, other coaches are too good at recruiting, and recruits are too impressionable for that to be the case.

UNT90 · December 5, 2016

This board has made it abundently clear that it only wants one narrative...

Wag Tag · December 5, 2016

9 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

Going by offer lists, Littrell's 2016 class would've ranked between Mccarney's 2nd best class (2015) and his 3rd best class (2011). And, obviously, behind Mccarney's best class (2014). This class looks on track to be similar to the 2016 class.

But yeah, it's a shame this board is so strongly opposed to any hint of being critical of Littrell. You can support the guy, be a fan of him, and still critically evaluate the state of the program.

I think salesmanship is an overwhelming part of the equation. Good salesmen can use any situation to their advantage. Have a worse record than the team you're recruiting against? Pitch playing time and chance to be part of turnaround. Have a better record? Pitch stability, championships, chance to make NFL, etc. Anyone can identify these pitches, but what separates the good recruiters from the pack is their ability to get these recruits to really buy what they're pitching.

Recruits will say different reasons brought them to committing, but the coaches are the ones who get them to buy into those justifications for committing. Winning does nothing but help, but it isn't going to yield top-of-the-conference classes for subpar or average recruiting staffs. Recruiting is too competitive, other coaches are too good at recruiting, and recruits are too impressionable for that to be the case.

With this staff having youth, work ethic and additional positions added I expect a better rated recruiting class! Mac's comparison should be left in the dust! How players are rated and how a class is rated Does Matter! GMG

GrandGreen · December 5, 2016

I am deeply concerned about recruiting. Littrell and staff at this point have not been shown to be any better than Simon, Dickey, Dodge or McCarney despite having substantially more to offer than those coaches with the exception of McCarney. NT is academically equal or better than most of their recruiting peers. Denton is now considered a great place to be. Facilities are at least comparable to other G5 programs.

Having said that, NT recruiting is not over and in fact I think Littrell is playing it smart not committing to more borderline recruits just to fill spots. That level of players is going to be available at the end of recruiting just as they are now. So see if NT can get some of those next level players who miss out of their preferred offers.

I think it is very clear that some coaches can recruit much better than others. It is too early to consider Littrell lacking in recruiting, but currently NT has not shown they are competitive with many G5 programs.

GMG_Dallas · December 5, 2016

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

This board has made it abundently clear that it only wants one narrative...

Image result for everything is fine house burning

GreenMachine · December 5, 2016

15 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If by not threatening to be a top CUSA class you mean 12th of 14 teams, then I agree. There is currently no improvement from McCarneys first few classes to Littrells first few classes (and yes, that includes Dan's short term recruiting period his 1st offseason). If anything, McCarney's first couple classes were better as it currently stands. Sleep on that, MGN.

And the @TheReal_jayD gets -1's for being upfront with our lack of progress and other program's success. And he's more in tune with recruiting tendencies than many.

This board, where butterflies and teddy bears only reign supreme.

Yes. Frank Wilson has gotten to where he is because he can bullshit well with kids and talk a high game on wherever he happens to be.

You aren't getting -1's for posting your opinion (I happen to agree with a lot you say) it's the condescending tone in most of your posts that does it. Tone it down a few notches brah.

Ben Gooding · December 5, 2016

24 minutes ago, GreenMachine said:

You aren't getting -1's for posting your opinion (I happen to agree with a lot you say) it's the condescending tone in most of your posts that does it. Tone it down a few notches brah.

I'm not an upvote chaser. I was just commenting on the fact that people are going about down voting people with a skeptical outlook of the current state of the program, this case our underwhelming recruiting. If it's not praising at the football altar, it's a down vote. Which these down votes mean nothing on this board, at all. It's just frustrating to watch because it's the same bunker down mentality with whoever tf lifts their skirt up for us and comes to North Texas. Can do no wrong unless you're a losing coach on the back quarter of your contract or an AD closing in on two decades.

3 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

I am deeply concerned about recruiting. Littrell and staff at this point have not been shown to be any better than Simon, Dickey, Dodge or McCarney despite having substantially more to offer than those coaches with the exception of McCarney. NT is academically equal or better than most of their recruiting peers. Denton is now considered a great place to be. Facilities are at least comparable to other G5 programs.

Having said that, NT recruiting is not over and in fact I think Littrell is playing it smart not committing to more borderline recruits just to fill spots. That level of players is going to be available at the end of recruiting just as they are now. So see if NT can get some of those next level players who miss out of their preferred offers.

I think it is very clear that some coaches can recruit much better than others. It is too early to consider Littrell lacking in recruiting, but currently NT has not shown they are competitive with many G5 programs.

You ended your post on what our problem is and what my main concern is.

jtm0097 · December 5, 2016

Hopefully the recruiting has picked up. I know there are a few disgruntled fans on here, but I am still hopeful. There is so much talent in this state.

BillySee58 · December 6, 2016

1 hour ago, jtm0097 said:

Hopefully the recruiting has picked up. I know there are a few disgruntled fans on here, but I am still hopeful. There is so much talent in this state.

Where are these disgruntled fans you're speaking of? I see the fans who have chosen to critically evaluate the state of our recruiting and compare it to our peers coming to a similarly less-than glowing evaluation. Don't see how that is anyone being disgruntled. Or how this means they aren't hopeful.

jtm0097 · December 6, 2016

Wag Tag · December 6, 2016

On 12/4/2016 at 4:49 PM, TheReal_jayD said:

Texas State had 2 wins in the Fun Belt. They are sitting at 24 commits. Several of the last hose had UNT offers. We sit at 11 commits. They have had 4 commits in the last 20 hours. The is more than UNT has had in the last 30 days...

Are we allowed to invite recruits to practice for the bowl game?

BTG_Fan1 · December 6, 2016

18 hours ago, Wag Tag said:

Are we allowed to invite recruits to practice for the bowl game?

I have no idea but I'm going to say no, but I hope they can find some way to get these kids tickets.

MGNation92 · December 6, 2016

I would say it is very much time to worry. Lack of offers, lack of visits. I know our recruiting budget isn't great, but weren't these guys supposed to be heads and tails above McCarney's staff? It's been pretty laughable so far. Year 1 recruiting cycle was understandable. Year 2 recruiting cycle, to this point in the year, has been absolutely abysmal

Ben Gooding · December 6, 2016

47 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

I would say it is very much time to worry. Lack of offers, lack of visits. I know our recruiting budget isn't great, but weren't these guys supposed to be heads and tails above McCarney's staff? It's been pretty laughable so far. Year 1 recruiting cycle was understandable. Year 2 recruiting cycle, to this point in the year, has been absolutely abysmal

Wow, did our coaching/recruiting staff tweet this out?

This goes with the theme of what people paying attention have been saying. We are getting torn to shreds on the recruiting trail. I guess this staff thinks recruits are just going to flock to them? I hope this is not how they are recruiting. This is, and this was something that was brought up by many during this hire, the issue with bringing on almost an entire staff compromised of former P5 employees. At their old job they didn't really know how to get their hands dirty in the recruiting game. They are finding out that this is work here in the G5 realm, particularly at North Texas.

*Same could kind of be said about all these new hires in the AD.

sigh

Edited December 6, 2016 by Ben Gooding