Cheat or Go Home

Caw Caw · November 29, 2016

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2677700-cheat-or-go-home-inside-the-dysfunctional-hell-of-becoming-a-cfb-coach

Really good read from bleacher report. I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are. Would you be willing to muddle through more hard pack recruiting years to have ethical success? Would you suffer through a consistent 6-6 or worse if you knew we were doing it right? If this is really what we compete against, is it really any wonder why we struggle to recruit?

MeanGreen13 · November 29, 2016

Wow... it was a good article. Way to almost redeem yourself for the last article I read BR... almost.

Mad Hatter · November 29, 2016

I've joked for years that we ought to look into cheating. They'll probably never give anyone the Death Penalty again. With our luck they'd bring it back.

untjim1995 · November 29, 2016

34 minutes ago, Caw Caw said:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2677700-cheat-or-go-home-inside-the-dysfunctional-hell-of-becoming-a-cfb-coach

Really good read from bleacher report. I wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are. Would you be willing to muddle through more hard pack recruiting years to have ethical success? Would you suffer through a consistent 6-6 or worse if you knew we were doing it right? If this is really what we compete against, is it really any wonder why we struggle to recruit?

I do think that schools in other places have boosters that put football on a pedestal and allow unethical people to control their scene. Obviously, the higher up you go in the Power Conferences, the more dramatic that point can look.

Here, I'm not sure we would ever have that. We are a school that doesn't usually support athletics that well and our interests tend to be on other areas, such as music and arts, among other things. But it does make it almost impossible to beat other G5 programs that do cheat or at least look the other way. That's a huge advantage that we won't ever be able to enjoy here. Of course, as soon as those G5 schools get caught cheating, even a little, the NCAA hammers come down super hard, which means that we will never find ourselves in that boat, either...

TIgreen01 · November 29, 2016

Not to be a dill, but.... Duh.

Cerebus · November 29, 2016

44 minutes ago, Caw Caw said:

Would you suffer through a consistent 6-6 or worse if you knew we were doing it right?

Yes.

To be honest I think North Texas, sitting in CUSA, can do it the right way and make a bowl game most years. That would be enough for me. If we could find someone talented enough to build us above that (bowl game almost every year, winning the conference championship 3 or 4 times a decade) and still do it the right way I would feel incredibly happy.

I wouldn't take a P5 membership if it meant we had to cheat. Sure, it would be fun for a while, but it would all come crashing down. That sort of thinking is what happened at Baylor and Penn State. The winning became so important that NO WRONG was TOO WRONG. I would never, ever want that to happen to my alma mater.

I have two degrees from this school. I would never want them to be stained like that.

southsideguy · November 29, 2016

not many players make it to the NFL, therefore you have to what is right for the student athlete. I complain about losing but winning the wrong way is wrong.

RBP79 · November 29, 2016

If you've been around NT Football very long then you know UNT would get caught and raked across the coals.....good read though.

Tyler Maryak · November 29, 2016

10 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Yes.

To be honest I think North Texas, sitting in CUSA, can do it the right way and make a bowl game most years. That would be enough for me. If we could find someone talented enough to build us above that (bowl game almost every year, winning the conference championship 3 or 4 times a decade) and still do it the right way I would feel incredibly happy.

I wouldn't take a P5 membership if it meant we had to cheat. Sure, it would be fun for a while, but it would all come crashing down. That sort of thinking is what happened at Baylor and Penn State. The winning became so important that NO WRONG was TOO WRONG. I would never, ever want that to happen to my alma mater.

I have two degrees from this school. I would never want them to be stained like that.

Exactly this.

That was a great (and insightful) article. Of course, I say do it the right way and get what you can. But I would not want to be in the hypothetical shoes of the coaches in that article. I can only hope that our university leadership realize that losing comes at a cost, but so does winning.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · November 29, 2016

Love this bit: As former Iowa coach Hayden Fry once told him, "You recruit your own problems."

The reason I can still love UNT football, in spite of all the losing is, they never - ever - embarrass me off the field. If I take my kids to a game, my guess is, 90% of the player on the UNT sideline are doing the right things off the field.

If they do wrong, they are gone - even when it may hurt the program on the field.

The fact that we've never been on NCAA probation, giving all the dirty recruiting surrounding us in Texas, Oklahoma, and Lousiana, is simply a testament to the coaches and athletic directors we've had.

They haven't all been winners. But, none of them have cut corners. In short, they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I hope it never changes.

And, so, yes I'd gladly average 6-6 seasons from here to eternity if we don't hire an AD or coaches who gets us chalked up by the NCAA.

CMJ · November 29, 2016

I think this kind of thing might be even more endemic to college basketball.

Ben Gooding · November 29, 2016

12 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Love this bit: As former Iowa coach Hayden Fry once told him, "You recruit your own problems."

The reason I can still love UNT football, in spite of all the losing is, they never - ever - embarrass me off the field. If I take my kids to a game, my guess is, 90% of the player on the UNT sideline are doing the right things off the field.

If they do wrong, they are gone - even when it may hurt the program on the field.

The fact that we've never been on NCAA probation, giving all the dirty recruiting surrounding us in Texas, Oklahoma, and Lousiana, is simply a testament to the coaches and athletic directors we've had.

They haven't all been winners. But, none of them have cut corners. In short, they walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I hope it never changes.

And, so, yes I'd gladly average 6-6 seasons from here to eternity if we don't hire an AD or coaches who gets us chalked up by the NCAA.

Or under, he said.

I don't know. I have mixed feelings on this. I want to keep the integrity of not just North Texas intact, but also of college football (what's left of it). I think if one is going to cheat then the battles have to be precise (rewarding) and the risks have to be minimal. So, I don't know. The one certainty right now is that we, undoubtedly, are not cheating. And if we are, we are horrid cheaters.

Caw Caw · November 29, 2016

8 minutes ago, CMJ said:

I think this kind of thing might be even more endemic to college basketball.

I do also think college talent is more available for Basketball with a much smaller roster size. AND, the one and done rule allows for the exceptional to move on and get paid after only one year. I am sure it happens, but systemically I think it's set up to prevent this a little bit better.

GreenMachine · November 30, 2016

But if you don't get caught, is it really cheating? Kinda like the tree and forest ordeal.

Edited November 30, 2016 by GreenMachine

MCMLXXX · November 30, 2016

I have had T-shirt fans of other schools, including NT graduates, ask me why I don't support "bigger" programs instead of NT. I always point out that not only am I a graduate and support my school but we are one of only a handful of schools that have never been placed on NCAA probation for any sport. At that point they usually admit they were unaware of that fact and then usually change the subject.

FirefightnRick · November 30, 2016

I wonder if Navy cheats?

Rick

Graddean · November 30, 2016

This happens at schools at all levels. Ole Miss gets the top recruiting class in the nation with a new coach! On-line classes make it easy for tutors or grad assistants to do papers or take tests for athletes. Before I retired I taught at a DII school. I think it is endemic in college football. During interviews listen to some athletes talk, and the tell me how they passed freshman comp. While at NTSU,in the doc program, one of my professors was concerned the ramifications of possibly failing one of the starters on the football team. It all starts with the president. He sets the tone for the athletic director. The AD sets it for the HC right on down the line. If there is rampant cheating, the president is complicit (see Baylor).

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · November 30, 2016

14 hours ago, Graddean said:

This happens at schools at all levels. Ole Miss gets the top recruiting class in the nation with a new coach! On-line classes make it easy for tutors or grad assistants to do papers or take tests for athletes. Before I retired I taught at a DII school. I think it is endemic in college football. During interviews listen to some athletes talk, and the tell me how they passed freshman comp. While at NTSU,in the doc program, one of my professors was concerned the ramifications of possibly failing one of the starters on the football team. It all starts with the president. He sets the tone for the athletic director. The AD sets it for the HC right on down the line. If there is rampant cheating, the president is complicit (see Baylor).

Oklahoma...to a T: http://www.nytimes.com/1989/02/18/sports/sports-of-the-times-the-grapes-of-wrath-at-oklahoma.html

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · November 30, 2016

17 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Or under, he said.

I don't know. I have mixed feelings on this. I want to keep the integrity of not just North Texas intact, but also of college football (what's left of it). I think if one is going to cheat then the battles have to be precise (rewarding) and the risks have to be minimal. So, I don't know. The one certainty right now is that we, undoubtedly, are not cheating. And if we are, we are horrid cheaters.

Average, I sad.

One year 6-6. Next year, maybe 8-4. Another year 5-7. Etc.

I have no problem with that type of success if we continue to keep our nose clean. I absolutely loved the APR list Cerebus posted with "North Texas" listed among some of the most well known and respected academic institutions in the country.

The NCAA does many things wrong. But, rewarding the 5-7 schools whose student-athletes are doing their jobs in the classroom is one thing they are doing right.

In fact, I'd go a step further if I were the NCAA, and during the bowl certification process, make APR a part of who gets invited first, weighing it equally with the on the field record.

Also, before you respond, I fully understand that many will disagree. However, I'm 164% for making student-athlete mean something beyond, "hey, we happen to have some kids on our campus who will be here enrolled in the necessary number of classes for four or five years while they play football Don't mind them except for Saturdays during the fall."

APR shows the work these student-athletes do year round.

I've also argued for years, if you are not going to reward the football players for the student end of the scholarship deal, just drop the pretense and call it minor league football and just pay the kids to be a part of the program until they are drafted by the NFL, CFL, or "cut" by the school.

SilverEagle · November 30, 2016

16 hours ago, MCMLXXX said:

I have had T-shirt fans of other schools, including NT graduates, ask me why I don't support "bigger" programs instead of NT. I always point out that not only am I a graduate and support my school but we are one of only a handful of schools that have never been placed on NCAA probation for any sport. At that point they usually admit they were unaware of that fact and then usually change the subject.

I always answer "because that's where I went to school. To support another college would be very pathetic. And very indicative of one's character.....or the lack thereof".

letsgiveacheer · November 30, 2016

15 hours ago, FirefightnRick said:

I wonder if Navy cheats?

They certainly are no angels! At a minimum, admission standards are relaxed for athletes among other things. Here is an interesting article from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/21/opinion/21fleming.html

Ben Gooding · November 30, 2016

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Average, I sad.

One year 6-6. Next year, maybe 8-4. Another year 5-7. Etc.

I have no problem with that type of success if we continue to keep our nose clean. I absolutely loved the APR list Cerebus posted with "North Texas" listed among some of the most well known and respected academic institutions in the country.

The NCAA does many things wrong. But, rewarding the 5-7 schools whose student-athletes are doing their jobs in the classroom is one thing they are doing right.

In fact, I'd go a step further if I were the NCAA, and during the bowl certification process, make APR a part of who gets invited first, weighing it equally with the on the field record.

Also, before you respond, I fully understand that many will disagree. However, I'm 164% for making student-athlete mean something beyond, "hey, we happen to have some kids on our campus who will be here enrolled in the necessary number of classes for four or five years while they play football Don't mind them except for Saturdays during the fall."

APR shows the work these student-athletes do year round.

I've also argued for years, if you are not going to reward the football players for the student end of the scholarship deal, just drop the pretense and call it minor league football and just pay the kids to be a part of the program until they are drafted by the NFL, CFL, or "cut" by the school.

Yes, but the scenario was to be 6-6 or worse on any given year and be willing to accept that rather than cheating here and there to have better players and a higher ceiling.

LongJim · November 30, 2016

What are your morals and your ethics worth to you?

97and03 · November 30, 2016

35 minutes ago, LongJim said:

What are your morals and your ethics worth to you?

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · December 1, 2016

10 hours ago, LongJim said:

What are your morals and your ethics worth to you?

Or, anyone. We just had an election pitting a guy who created a fake university against a lady who sold access to the U.S. government through a "foundation."

Unfortunately, I think FBS college football is becoming as "idiocracy" as politics.