A question for the "We should Be" crowd

Caw Caw · November 6, 2016

I'm happy with the progress and everything. So put me in that camp before we start this discussion.

My question is on all these threads I hear, we should be top five C-USA recruiting, we should(n't) be rivals with UTSA, etc. We should be stealing recruits from those guys, etc. Can you explain to me why you actually think that? I get that's where we want to be, but what have we done in comparison to some of these teams that you think it should be that way. I'm not trying to troll anyone, I just want to add to my perspective. I understand we have a long history to our program, but honestly our last .500 coach was Jerry Moore. The last guy to go above .500 was Hayden Fry. That's 36 years of mostly mediocre season. Of course some parts of the Dickey Era and the 2013 season. But what would make those things a given? I think we're going to have to earn that status. I don't we should be, I think we want to be.

drex · November 6, 2016

History is chilling, ain't it.

BillySee58 · November 6, 2016

Recruiting. First of all, we're in Texas which produces the most FBS recruits in the country at typically 350+ per year.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.footballstudyhall.com/platform/amp/2013/9/11/4718442/college-football-state-texas-california-florida

But an excuse Mccarney subtly liked to bring up is that there are 12 FBS programs (which Mac would incorrectly say 12 Division 1 programs) in the state of Texas. It has been mentioned on here as well. But, it's Texas. If you look at in-state three-star or better recruits per FBS program, Texas still has has one of the most dense rates in the country at over 20 three-star or better recruits per FBS program in Texas. One of just six states in the country that has over 20 three-stars per FBS program, with Florida being the only other state that hosts another CUSA school(s).

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football-recruiting/2015/4/15/8143431/states-most-players-recruits

But we don't just have the advantage of being in Texas. The quadrant, if you will, of Texas that we are in is the one where Texas produces the majority of its NFL players. Take a look at this map and look how many NFL players are produced in DFW and out in the sparsely populated East Texas.

http://batchgeo.com/map/69d2f3e3a2caec281c38a7e8d263ae11

And again, back to East Texas, this is possibly our biggest advantage. Because East Texas is so spread out, the players there don't get recruited as heavily.

Let's say you're a coach coming to recruit from out of state. What's a more efficient use of your budget: flying to DFW, getting a rental car, and driving within a 30 miles radius of the airport where every school you visit has 2-6 FBS-caliber seniors, OR driving 2-3 hours one way out to a small town in East Texas that maybe has one FBS caliber-recruit and there isn't another for 40 miles?

This is why Jeff Wilson and La'Darius Hamilton don't get many offers. But we're close enough to make that drive and get these guys. Had Wilson and Hamilton played high school ball at places like Coppell or Allen, their offer lists wouldn't even resemble the ones that they actually had.

And then there's our school size and local alumni base. I'll defer to @Cerebuson this one, but I'd imagine we have more local alumni than any school in CUSA. We've done an awful job of getting club membership out of these alumni, which has been well chronicled by Cerebus as well.

Don't mistake bad leadership and management with being at an inherent disadvantage.

Edited November 6, 2016 by BillySee58

Wag Tag · November 6, 2016

8 hours ago, Caw Caw said:

I'm happy with the progress and everything. So put me in that camp before we start this discussion.

My question is on all these threads I hear, we should be top five C-USA recruiting, we should(n't) be rivals with UTSA, etc. We should be stealing recruits from those guys, etc. Can you explain to me why you actually think that? I get that's where we want to be, but what have we done in comparison to some of these teams that you think it should be that way. I'm not trying to troll anyone, I just want to add to my perspective. I understand we have a long history to our program, but honestly our last .500 coach was Jerry Moore. The last guy to go above .500 was Hayden Fry. That's 36 years of mostly mediocre season. Of course some parts of the Dickey Era and the 2013 season. But what would make those things a given? I think we're going to have to earn that status. I don't we should be, I think we want to be.

Pretty easy answer! We now have the leadership and we are spending the $$$$!

NorthTexan95 · November 6, 2016

8 hours ago, Caw Caw said:

My question is on all these threads I hear, we should be top five C-USA recruiting, we should(n't) be rivals with UTSA, etc.

For the record, I don't think I've heard anyone say we shouldn't be rivals with UTSA (well, maybe some said that when they first moved to CUSA). What you see now is most people don't believe UTSA is a rival right now (which is true for most).

Hunter Green · November 6, 2016

The potential for UNT to be a player in big time athletics has always been there. I remember DMN articles from 25 years ago claiming UNT as the sleeping giant. We've been a perpetual sleeping giant with an administration that was apathetic towards athletics, at best. The pieces are finally in place for this great University to awaken and become the beast we all hoped it could be. It will just take a while to awaken, shake off the rust and assume the position. I'll always have faith that that will happen because this school has too much going for it. Location, enrollment, academics, proximity to D/FW. Athletics is the last piece of the puzzle to get the attention it's needed since the Fry era when we had our first big chance to move up the ladder.

Ben Gooding · November 6, 2016

@CawClaw

Read Billys post. No need for me to type the exact thing in different wording.

Tyler Maryak · November 6, 2016

It just kills me for UTSA to bring in a new guy at the same time as us (also after a terrible season) and they're working on having the #1 recruiting class in the conference while we're at #9 and, seemingly, falling. We're paying the big bucks now and, as happy as we are with the on-the-field results and leadership initiative, we should expect big-bucks results. Maybe it's unrealistic for us to be middle-of-the-pack in recruiting this season, but I'd rather be demanding that than saying "ah, it'll probably happen next year or the one after" and find ourselves still at #9 in CUSA in recruiting 5 years from now.

Ben Gooding · November 6, 2016

17 minutes ago, Tyler Maryak said:

It just kills me for UTSA to bring in a new guy at the same time as us (also after a terrible season) and they're working on having the #1 recruiting class in the conference while we're at #9 and, seemingly, falling. We're paying the big bucks now and, as happy as we are with the on-the-field results and leadership initiative, we should expect big-bucks results. Maybe it's unrealistic for us to be middle-of-the-pack in recruiting this season, but I'd rather be demanding that than saying "ah, it'll probably happen next year or the one after" and find ourselves still at #9 in CUSA in recruiting 5 years from now.

Utsa also went into Murfreesboro and whipped Middle last night. But it's ALWAYS North Texas that needs a 1/2 decade plan to have a mediocre year.

It's NEVER unrealistic for us to be muddle of the pack EVERY year. And how it's shaping up, this staff can't recruit at a high level. The have a little less than 3 months to prove themselves.

FirefightnRick · November 6, 2016

Expectation......that's why.

There are a lot of Texans on La Tech's roster that helped kick our tails last night..

The starters...

QB #14 Ryan Higgins is from Hutto.

Starting RG #61 Ethan Reed is from Little Cypress-Mauriceville.

Starting left OT #75 Derrel Brown is from Abilene.

Starting CB #23 Prince Sam is from Allen HS, Transferred in from Houston Baptist.

Others who contributed and showed with stats or on the participation report.....

#77 OL Gewhite Stallworth is from Reagan HS, tr from Navarro JC.

#52 DS Derrell Travis is from McKinney North.

#5 LB Dalton Santos is from Van HS, transferred from Texas.

#91 DT Cedric Johnson is from Rowlett.

#47 DE Eric Kendzoir is from Deer Park.

Others on the roster....

#65 OL Cody Russey is from Burleson.

#56 OL Wyatt Santos is from Van, tr from Tyler JC.

#70 OL Micheal Rodriguez is from La Port HS.

#63 OL Deontea McCrady is from Arlington Lamar HS.

#44 LB Brandon Durman is from Tyler Lee.

#35 LB Collin Scott is from Manvel HS.

#32 CB Trey Spencer is from West Orange Stark.

I don't know if we ever tried to recruit these players or not. But if we did we should have never lost them to La Tech. No disrespect to the Bulldogs but if you've ever been to Ruston you know why I say that.

Rick

Edited November 6, 2016 by FirefightnRick

Caw Caw · November 6, 2016

3 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

Recruiting. First of all, we're in Texas which produces the most FBS recruits in the country at typically 350+ per year.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.footballstudyhall.com/platform/amp/2013/9/11/4718442/college-football-state-texas-california-florida

But an excuse Mccarney subtly liked to bring up is that there are 12 FBS programs (which Mac would incorrectly say 12 Division 1 programs) in the state of Texas. It has been mentioned on here as well. But, it's Texas. If you look at in-state three-star or better recruits per FBS program, Texas still has has one of the most dense rates in the country at over 20 three-star or better recruits per FBS program in Texas. One of just six states in the country that has over 20 three-stars per FBS program, with Florida being the only other state that hosts another CUSA school(s).

https://www.google.com/amp/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-football-recruiting/2015/4/15/8143431/states-most-players-recruits

But we don't just have the advantage of being in Texas. The quadrant, if you will, of Texas that we are in is the one where Texas produces the majority of its NFL players. Take a look at this map and look how many NFL players are produced in DFW and out in the sparsely populated East Texas.

http://batchgeo.com/map/69d2f3e3a2caec281c38a7e8d263ae11

And again, back to East Texas, this is possibly our biggest advantage. Because East Texas is so spread out, the players there don't get recruited as heavily.

Let's say you're a coach coming to recruit from out of state. What's a more efficient use of your budget: flying to DFW, getting a rental car, and driving within a 30 miles radius of the airport where every school you visit has 2-6 FBS-caliber seniors, OR driving 2-3 hours one way out to a small town in East Texas that maybe has one FBS caliber-recruit and there isn't another for 40 miles?

This is why Jeff Wilson and La'Darius Hamilton don't get many offers. But we're close enough to make that drive and get these guys. Had Wilson and Hamilton played high school ball at places like Coppell or Allen, their offer lists wouldn't even resemble the ones that they actually had.

And then there's our school size and local alumni base. I'll defer to @Cerebuson this one, but I'd imagine we have more local alumni than any school in CUSA. We've done an awful job of getting club membership out of these alumni, which has been well chronicled by Cerebus as well.

Don't mistake bad leadership and management with being at an inherent disadvantage.

Billy, thanks for taking the time to put this together. I really appreciate it. I don't think we are just hugely disadvantaged, I was just curious what the perceived advantages were. I agree recruiting-wiser we're in a geographical position to capitalize more than most of our C-USA and P5 competition. That still doesn't convince a kid to come to UNT. I'm sure you're right that part of it comes down to leadership and management. But I do believe our recent history hurts us a good bit. If you've lost repeatedly to the competition who does make it out there (La Tech and UTSA come to mind), it's a pretty easy selling edge. I'm interested to see if Seth really means he only cares for guys that fits his system and not rankings or offers and if that translates to wins. Again, thanks for the great read.

BillySee58 · November 6, 2016

4 hours ago, Caw Caw said:

Billy, thanks for taking the time to put this together. I really appreciate it. I don't think we are just hugely disadvantaged, I was just curious what the perceived advantages were. I agree recruiting-wiser we're in a geographical position to capitalize more than most of our C-USA and P5 competition. That still doesn't convince a kid to come to UNT. I'm sure you're right that part of it comes down to leadership and management. But I do believe our recent history hurts us a good bit. If you've lost repeatedly to the competition who does make it out there (La Tech and UTSA come to mind), it's a pretty easy selling edge. I'm interested to see if Seth really means he only cares for guys that fits his system and not rankings or offers and if that translates to wins. Again, thanks for the great read.

Sure thing! The thing about high school kids is they really are blank canvases, so to speak. For us who have followed the team for any length of time, we know the history but high school kids typically do not. Unless their parents went to North Texas, they really have no concept of us or any CUSA program, for that matter. They most likely grew up watching the games on CBS, ABC, and ESPN which we don't play on (ESPN3/360 doesn't count).

Also, we try to forget the Dodge years and feel like it is a black cloud on this program that will linger forever. But for recruiting, it never happened! Not because of how hard we try to forget about it, but because the current HS seniors were in 6th grade the last time Todd Dodge coached a game for North Texas. They were born in late 1998 or early 1999.

They don't know about the Dodge era. They definitely don't know about before then, and unless Mccarney offered them before he was fired, they most likely don't know who Dan Mccarney is. Like I said, these kids are blank canvases. They know what the coach recruiting them tells them, their parents if they have parents who do their homework, and what their HS coaches tell them, and maybe some research the proactive ones do on their own.

The facilities are here, the students and campus are here, and the proximity works in our favor. If we have good recruiting coaches, it doesn't matter what we did or didn't do before they were born or before they really spent time watching college football.

Aquila_Viridis · November 6, 2016

NT's decades of being mostly terrible have got to be a factor in recruiting. If we were a business we would be out of business because of the awful brand NT built in that regard. You can put out the 'Under New Management' sign, but if there was a restaurant that you knew was crap for decades that put out that sign, would you give it a try when there are a lot of other restaurants that don't have that reputation? If we can't recruit, we can't win; and if we can't win, we can't recruit. Poor management and support have dug about an impossible hole. This is one reason I say we can't just keep pace in spending. We would have to do something really splashy to possibly change recruits' minds and break the cycle.

UNT86 · November 7, 2016

9 hours ago, FirefightnRick said:

Expectation......that's why.

There are a lot of Texans on La Tech's roster that helped kick our tails last night..

The starters...

QB #14 Ryan Higgins is from Hutto.

Starting RG #61 Ethan Reed is from Little Cypress-Mauriceville.

Starting left OT #75 Derrel Brown is from Abilene.

Starting CB #23 Prince Sam is from Allen HS, Transferred in from Houston Baptist.

Others who contributed and showed with stats or on the participation report.....

#77 OL Gewhite Stallworth is from Reagan HS, tr from Navarro JC.

#52 DS Derrell Travis is from McKinney North.

#5 LB Dalton Santos is from Van HS, transferred from Texas.

#91 DT Cedric Johnson is from Rowlett.

#47 DE Eric Kendzoir is from Deer Park.

Others on the roster....

#65 OL Cody Russey is from Burleson.

#56 OL Wyatt Santos is from Van, tr from Tyler JC.

#70 OL Micheal Rodriguez is from La Port HS.

#63 OL Deontea McCrady is from Arlington Lamar HS.

#44 LB Brandon Durman is from Tyler Lee.

#35 LB Collin Scott is from Manvel HS.

#32 CB Trey Spencer is from West Orange Stark.

I don't know if we ever tried to recruit these players or not. But if we did we should have never lost them to La Tech. No disrespect to the Bulldogs but if you've ever been to Ruston you know why I say that.

Rick

I know we tried to recruit #91 Cedric Johnson. He had a lot of attention from us and from SMU. He didn't want to stay close to home and told both not to bother. He got an offer from La Tech early, liked his visit, and locked in his choice.

We tried, he wasn't interested in staying in the area.

untjim1995 · November 7, 2016

20 hours ago, Aquila_Viridis said:

NT's decades of being mostly terrible have got to be a factor in recruiting. If we were a business we would be out of business because of the awful brand NT built in that regard. You can put out the 'Under New Management' sign, but if there was a restaurant that you knew was crap for decades that put out that sign, would you give it a try when there are a lot of other restaurants that don't have that reputation? If we can't recruit, we can't win; and if we can't win, we can't recruit. Poor management and support have dug about an impossible hole. This is one reason I say we can't just keep pace in spending. We would have to do something really splashy to possibly change recruits' minds and break the cycle.

I've said this for a while and I do believe Seth Littrell is the one guy who could change this perception, but right now, the biggest problem we have with fans and with TX HS coaches and parents is the fact that losing has gone on for so long and been tolerated by the university, it takes a long time to change the views that have prevailed for so long.

We got 21k for a Homecoming game, at Apogee, against a good name team in Louisiana Tech (not playing at Fouts against Louisiana-Monroe). While a solid number compared to our historical attendance, it just hits on far behind we are in terms of getting interest turned toward the program beyond the diehards. Now, the good news is that we have the opportunity to gain the interest and attention of alumni, students, and local citizenry--but its hard because too many of those people don't consider UNT, even if is their school or alma mater, as their primary team.

Littrell has a very bright future as a coach, obviously. If he can't get recruits here that lift us above 100 on the recruiting lists, it speaks more to the institutional issues that have been allowed for so long. Believe it or not, people do know when you let a terrible AD stay in place for 15 years that winning isn't a priority. But if he can pull this off and start getting recruits that have solid FBS offers to still come here and turn them into a winner, the sky is the limit here for our program.

BillySee58 · November 8, 2016

5 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

I've said this for a while and I do believe Seth Littrell is the one guy who could change this perception, but right now, the biggest problem we have with fans and with TX HS coaches and parents is the fact that losing has gone on for so long and been tolerated by the university, it takes a long time to change the views that have prevailed for so long.

We got 21k for a Homecoming game, at Apogee, against a good name team in Louisiana Tech (not playing at Fouts against Louisiana-Monroe). While a solid number compared to our historical attendance, it just hits on far behind we are in terms of getting interest turned toward the program beyond the diehards. Now, the good news is that we have the opportunity to gain the interest and attention of alumni, students, and local citizenry--but its hard because too many of those people don't consider UNT, even if is their school or alma mater, as their primary team.

Littrell has a very bright future as a coach, obviously. If he can't get recruits here that lift us above 100 on the recruiting lists, it speaks more to the institutional issues that have been allowed for so long. Believe it or not, people do know when you let a terrible AD stay in place for 15 years that winning isn't a priority. But if he can pull this off and start getting recruits that have solid FBS offers to still come here and turn them into a winner, the sky is the limit here for our program.

I still don't understand why people think high school recruits are college football historians and aficionados to the point that they have concept on the history of a school that doesn't have nationally televised games.

Out of the next 10 high school recruits we offer, I would be very surprised if a single one of them could tell us who our previous athletic director was or who either of our last two head football coaches were at the moment we offer. Same goes for their parents.

Who here could've named who the athletic director was if someone would've asked you on your first day on campus? Or how about if they asked you who the AD at North Texas was when you were in high school?

I remember last year our coaches asked recruits who between Trevor Moore and Kenny Buyers was the starting CB and which was the starting kicker, and more recruits thought Moore was the CB. These kids aren't watching UNT football unless they are already committed or are already seriously considering us.

My senior class had 6 division 1 signees. Only 2 or 3 of those guys actually spent substantial time watching college football before they committed, and the college football they were watching and paying attention to was the nationally televised teams like Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, USC, etc.

Look at Todd Dodge's 2008 class and their offer lists.

https://northtexas.rivals.com/commitments/football/2008

These guys chose us over notable programs, and they didn't care about our history, our conference, or our awful stadium. Dodge lifted us above 100 on the recruiting lists with less to work with than Littrell. Dodge was a good recruiter and was able to successfully sell them on his program right then and there. That's all it takes.

The current coaches are the program to these recruits and even their parents. Not players who played here before they were born, or prior athletic directors, or prior coaches. We're recruiting teenage high school kids. Not 50-year olds who have spent the last 30 years watching college football all day every fall Saturday.

untjim1995 · November 8, 2016

Just now, BillySee58 said:

I still don't understand why people think high school recruits are college football historians and aficionados to the point that they have concept on the history of a school that doesn't have nationally televised games.

Out of the next 10 high school recruits we offer, I would be very surprised if a single one of them could tell us who our previous athletic director was or who either of our last two head football coaches were at the moment we offer. Same goes for their parents.

Who here could've named who the athletic director was if someone would've asked you on your first day on campus? Or how about if they asked you who the AD at North Texas was when you were in high school?

I remember last year our coaches asked recruits who between Trevor Moore and Kenny Buyers was the starting CB and which was the starting kicker, and more recruits thought Moore was the CB. These kids aren't watching UNT football unless they are already committed or are already seriously considering us.

My senior class had 6 division 1 signees. Only 2 or 3 of those guys actually spent substantial time watching college football before they committed, and the college football they were watching and paying attention to was the nationally televised teams like Texas, Florida, Oklahoma, USC, etc.

Look at Todd Dodge's 2008 class and their offer lists.

https://northtexas.rivals.com/commitments/football/2008

These guys chose us over notable programs, and they didn't care about our history, our conference, or our awful stadium. Dodge lifted us above 100 on the recruiting lists with less to work with than Littrell. Dodge was a good recruiter and was able to successfully sell them on his program right then and there. That's all it takes.

The current coaches are the program to these recruits and even their parents. Not players who played here before they were born, or prior athletic directors, or prior coaches. We're recruiting teenage high school kids. Not 50-year olds who have spent the last 30 years watching college football all day every fall Saturday.

Their coaches and their parents know.

BillySee58 · November 8, 2016

34 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Their coaches and their parents know.

I've read comments from some of these coaches thinking we're not division 1 because we aren't in one of the premier conferences. Many are not like GMG24. Their parents most likely watching either their alma mater or nationally televised games like 95+% of people who watch college football.

Yes parents and coaches typically have more background than recruits, but if our coach impresses them and they trust him with their son and believe in his product, that trumps preconceptions.

Did the coaches and parents not know about our history back in 2008? Didn't seem to deter us from landing a top 100 class and number 1 in our conference.

Ben Gooding · November 8, 2016

40 minutes ago, BillySee58 said:

I've read comments from some of these coaches thinking we're not division 1 because we aren't in one of the premier conferences. Many are not like GMG24. Their parents most likely watching either their alma mater or nationally televised games like 95+% of people who watch college football.

Yes parents and coaches typically have more background than recruits, but if our coach impresses them and they trust him with their son and believe in his product, that trumps preconceptions.

Did the coaches and parents not know about our history back in 2008? Didn't seem to deter us from landing a top 100 class and number 1 in our conference.

If this is true then this is absolutely atrocious. How do you advise or even talk to your players that may be getting some interest thrown their way when they are oblivious.

untjim1995 · November 8, 2016

4 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

I've read comments from some of these coaches thinking we're not division 1 because we aren't in one of the premier conferences. Many are not like GMG24. Their parents most likely watching either their alma mater or nationally televised games like 95+% of people who watch college football.

Yes parents and coaches typically have more background than recruits, but if our coach impresses them and they trust him with their son and believe in his product, that trumps preconceptions.

Did the coaches and parents not know about our history back in 2008? Didn't seem to deter us from landing a top 100 class and number 1 in our conference.

They knew about Todd Dodge back in 2008. That's what got us that class.

I once spoke to the head coach at Daingerfield HS back in the Dodge days. He said that most of the coaches he knew felt like Dodge was leaving the premier job in the state to go to a place that was, in their minds, a last resort. I asked him why he and they felt that way about UNT--his exact answer was that everyone knew that winning at football wasn't the priority, at least back then--that was 7-8 years ago. I asked him how he steered kids to make decisions on where to go and he always asked the kid what they wanted to do with their life (i.e. Major choice, where to settle down, etc...) and how important would it be to play for a winner. Because he felt that if playing time was all you were offering, that wasn't a good sign for signing up to be a part of a winner. Granted, this was also when we played at Fouts in the SBC, so very little was appealing to our situation as compared to today.

Look, we play in a great stadium, in a better conference setup, in a college town, and have solid academics. You tell me why our recruiting sucks every year compared to others in the state with a similar position in CFB--because that conversation with the HS coach i mentioned above still sticks with me after all these years. Just like with fans, it's gonna take a special coach to build something up here that will attract the attention of recruits who normally wouldn't and haven't given us the time of day when comparing offers from other similar FBS schools. I think about the way Johnny Jones built up our hoops program. He focused on building up talent from HS, but he got high end talent in transfers to come back to the Metroplex, combining to get us into the NCAAs. Eventually, before we killed the program by hiring Benford, JJ got some really solid HS kids to come here. That's what I'm hoping Seth Littrell will follow here with out football team.

Rudy · November 8, 2016

31 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

They knew about Todd Dodge back in 2008. That's what got us that class.

I talk to people STILL think Dodge is our coach.

BillySee58 · November 8, 2016

3 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

You tell me why our recruiting sucks every year compared to others in the state with a similar position in CFB--because that conversation with the HS coach i mentioned above still sticks with me after all these years. Just like with fans, it's gonna take a special coach to build something up here that will attract the attention of recruits who normally wouldn't and haven't given us the time of day when comparing offers from other similar FBS schools. I think about the way Johnny Jones built up our hoops program. He focused on building up talent from HS, but he got high end talent in transfers to come back to the Metroplex, combining to get us into the NCAAs. Eventually, before we killed the program by hiring Benford, JJ got some really solid HS kids to come here. That's what I'm hoping Seth Littrell will follow here with out football team.

Because Mccarney was the worst recruiting head coach in all of FBS, and Mike Grant wasn't too much better when it came to recruiting coordinators. Mccarney didn't get a Twitter account until he signed his extension, and Twitter is such an advantageous communication venue because of how much less limited it is than phone communication. And he used outdated references like Fran Tarkenton that meant nothing to HS kids. Also he thought his name carried a lot more weight than it didn't and was just completely out of touch in general.

As for Dodge, he was a good recruited period. His background certainly didn't hurt, but he was successful recruiting JUCO players as well. Not just metroplex high school kids.

Again, perception doesn't matter if a new coach can get high school kids to buy him and his program at the present. And if he can do that frequently enough, maybe some coaches and parents still discourage the kid from going there, but the college coach will typically be able to sell them as well by proxy.

Johnny Jones is an example of a good recruiter getting good players here. That's all it takes. Not saying we have good perception or that our perception doesn't matter, but I am saying that it will get easily superseded by recruits if the coach can successfully sell them on the program.

Wag Tag · November 8, 2016

1 hour ago, BillySee58 said:

Because Mccarney was the worst recruiting head coach in all of FBS, and Mike Grant wasn't too much better when it came to recruiting coordinators. Mccarney didn't get a Twitter account until he signed his extension, and Twitter is such an advantageous communication venue because of how much less limited it is than phone communication. And he used outdated references like Fran Tarkenton that meant nothing to HS kids. Also he thought his name carried a lot more weight than it didn't and was just completely out of touch in general.

As for Dodge, he was a good recruited period. His background certainly didn't hurt, but he was successful recruiting JUCO players as well. Not just metroplex high school kids.

Again, perception doesn't matter if a new coach can get high school kids to buy him and his program at the present. And if he can do that frequently enough, maybe some coaches and parents still discourage the kid from going there, but the college coach will typically be able to sell them as well by proxy.

Johnny Jones is an example of a good recruiter getting good players here. That's all it takes. Not saying we have good perception or that our perception doesn't matter, but I am saying that it will get easily superseded by recruits if the coach can successfully sell them on the program.

The past will not dictate the future. I always thought that we can't recruit because of record was a BS! That would mean any loosing team is destine to failure. Look at Frig n Western Mich!!!!!! It is effort and $ to spend on the effort that will have a positive impact.

Look at our existing BB coach! How much more of a dire situation can you have ,but he seems to recruit well!

Cerebus · November 8, 2016

The best recruiter we have had, BY FAR, since our return to 1A/FBS was Dickey... and all he had to sell was Fouts, and no weight room, and no meeting rooms, and locker rooms that were worse than what my junior high had, and the Fun Belt.

Billy is right. There are just some recruits out of our reach. But the recruits than we can compete for the coaching staff has to be able to go in one and one and sell the program and themselves.

That is exactly what Wilson and his staff is doing at UTSA. It's what plenty of other coaches in CUSA are doing. It's too early to make a judgement on SL and his staff right now, but the early returns are at the very least concerning.

untjim1995 · November 8, 2016

32 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

The best recruiter we have had, BY FAR, since our return to 1A/FBS was Dickey... and all he had to sell was Fouts, and no weight room, and no meeting rooms, and locker rooms that were worse than what my junior high had, and the Fun Belt.

Billy is right. There are just some recruits out of our reach. But the recruits than we can compete for the coaching staff has to be able to go in one and one and sell the program and themselves.

That is exactly what Wilson and his staff is doing at UTSA. It's what plenty of other coaches in CUSA are doing. It's too early to make a judgement on SL and his staff right now, but the early returns are at the very least concerning.

I guess the question that comes to mind then is why is Wilson at UTSA able to do it, but we aren't? I agree, its way to early to make any judgment on SL and staff for sure on the recruiting front, but is UTSA just able to take advantage of its location, facility that get bigtime schools there for OOC games, and its lack of a losing history to sell to recruits? I am sure it helps that hey have shown recruits that they have played big time schools in San Antonio and gave them games--see Arizona State this year, Arizona and OSU from a few years ago. To me, those last two have to be the reasons they have seen their recruiting jump up so much. Our losing history is huge, to the point that apathy amongst media and most UNT students and alumni shows that disconnect in a big way. Then, add in home games for UTSA in OOC that have featured OSU, KSU, ASU, Zona, Colorado State, and UNM over the last few years, while we have played SMU, Portland State, Bethune Cookman, Nicholls State, Idaho, Ball State, and Texas Southern in the same exact timeframe. I do think that matters to kids that are looking at both situations and making their decisions.