Why not a State Fair game for North Texas?

[EagleMBA]

6 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

This game had 55K in attendance????? If so, that is head shaking. It must have just been football hungry folks going in from the fair just to watch the game of football. 

IMO, they went for the halftime show.

OOOPS! Sorry Stix, I posted before I got to yours...but I like the way you think.

Edited October 11, 2016 by EagleMBA

[Rudy]

8 hours ago, Aldo said:

My response is: they have other games during the Fair?

Had no idea.

I'm sure the people in the fair during those games know.

[GrandGreen]

SMU and NT at Dallas makes no sense at all.   Even if they could get the stadium for free, I doubt that they would draw the crowds they have at Apogee or Ford.   

The only neutral site games NT should consider would be to take on a power team that would not play in Denton.   Like A&M, ages ago at Texas Stadium.  This would not even make sense until NT builds the program enough to be competitive in the minds of fans.   Think Oklahoma playing UH in Houston stadium.  

In other words, until NT can fill Apogee; they don't have any reason to play home or neutral site games anywhere else.  

[UNTexas]

On 10/10/2016 at 4:35 PM, TripleGrad said:

The Cotton Bowl hosts 3 football games during the fair:  the Grambling game, the Texas/OU game, and the Air Force game.  Maybe North Texas should look into an annual showcase against UTSA or UTEP at the Cotton Bowl during the last weekend of the fair. I'm sure we'd have to find a game sponsor to pay the stadium bill, but we might get some better coverage and could build a regional rivalry.

 

Thoughts?

No, but I'll take a post season game there in the Winter. Apogee is nicer for our regular season home games.

Edited October 12, 2016 by UNTexas

[Mike Jackson]

On 10/10/2016 at 4:54 PM, Huff said:

Been there..........Done that..........It didn't work then and we don't need to revisit that disaster again.

This is not 1984 or even the early 1990s.  Look I am die hard as anyone but dragging my family from south of DFW airport to Denton for a game is a hard sell.  And I suspect that many alumni a lot less passionate than me consider going, look at the opponent, the history of failure, family/friend resistance, and say "why bother".   If we could get Texas Tech, Baylor or even Houston to play in the Cotton Bowl during the State Fair of Texas  only it is a no brainer.   But let's be honest with ourselves.   What is the probability that UNT will put together a run a 4-5 straight 9 win seasons?  Texas A&M barely did that in Big 12 or the old SWC with infinitely more resources and alumni support than we have ever had.  For the right opportunity I think it stupid to dismiss the opportunity to play a regional P5 opponent in the Cotton Bowl during the State Fair.   I love Apogee but dam if we can't fill the thing we need to turn over every stone to change the reputation of the program.  Do it for 4 years with one out of conference opponent that you would like to play that won't come to Apogee.  I believe that list is quite long at the P5 level so there are a lot of choices.  RV may have been horrible but I doubt if Colorado, Kansas, TCU, Baylor, Nebraska, and/or Oklahoma State called him interested in setting up a home and home that he did not take the call.

 

[Mike Jackson]

20 hours ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

A Sad Day For This Texan:  I was floored going to the HOD Bowl game on 1/1/14 how run down things were in & around Fair Park.  As a Texan it made me sad knowing how proud all living at the time during the 1936 Texas Centennial when that whole area was a shining buckle in the Lone Star State.  Jerry Jones would have changed east Dallas for at least a half century but for an airhead ex Mayor with an agenda who last I heard doesn't even live in Texas.

This was NOT Laura Millers fault.  I did not like her but those aren't the facts.  The fact is the county commissioners kept a bond proposal for the Dallas Cowboys to Fair Park on the ballot on election day for fear that it would increase voter turnout and that all the people who complain about city government but never vote would and kick get them out of office while they were making sure they weighed in on the Cowboys.  Laura Miller didn't "talk nice" to Jerry Jones but at the end of the day she (on any Dallas Mayor based on the structure of their city charter) have very little power to make big things like a brand new stadium happen.  It only their symbolic power that is more significant.  And since she wasn't an especially popular mayor that was limited too.

[Ryan Munthe]

9 hours ago, gangrene said:

While we're at it, why not the Star in Frisco?  At a capacity of 18K, we shouldn't have a problem selling it out.

 

*Disclaimer - before anyone rails on me, although I live in Frisco, this post should not be taken seriously.

I actually like this idea way better than the Cotton Bowl.

It's about demand.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Ryan Munthe

[TheWestie]

On 10/10/2016 at 2:59 PM, Zeke said:

An annual SMU game there would be interesting. 

Look we already can't get SMU to play us where we want...

 

Edited October 12, 2016 by TheWestie

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

11 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

This was NOT Laura Millers fault.  I did not like her but those aren't the facts.  The fact is the county commissioners kept a bond proposal for the Dallas Cowboys to Fair Park on the ballot on election day for fear that it would increase voter turnout and that all the people who complain about city government but never vote would and kick get them out of office while they were making sure they weighed in on the Cowboys.  Laura Miller didn't "talk nice" to Jerry Jones but at the end of the day she (on any Dallas Mayor based on the structure of their city charter) have very little power to make big things like a brand new stadium happen.  It only their symbolic power that is more significant.  And since she wasn't an especially popular good mayor that was limited too.

Come on, dude.  Even though they lack the proper use of paragraphs, I love your posts, but I have to ask...

...have you seen the push Arlington has put on to keep the Rangers there? It's a civic effort.   

Laura Miller was the Mayor.  Jerry Jones was willing to move to Dallas for the right deal.  She didn't understand that because she was a journalist, not a business man...or woman. Whatever.  She had no business sense.

As distasteful as it seems, if you want business in your city, you have to play nice with developers and business folk.  She wouldn't do it.  She was constantly in journalist/suspicious mode.

And, if you can't see that having the Dallas Cowboys in your city named Dallas might help it just a bit economically...?  Come on. 

The difference between Miller and Rawling is night and day. 

Arlington sees what happened with the Cowboys.  They see Dallas has opened a play area to practice in here in Frisco.  They see lots and lots of open land around the edges of Denton, Collin, and Tarrant county.  They realize that if Arlington doesn't step up to the plate, the Rangers will go where they can get their best deal.

I guarantee you that every mayor and city council in the DFW area with a mile or two or open fields - or, old buildings and houses to "condemn" - is in the ear of Ranger ownership trying to sell its city on them.

[Boca_Nasty_96]

YES, Especially with UTSA since technically their our rivals 

GMG  

[greenjoe]

Since I'm not a fan of pro football, I haven't really kept up with the Joneses.  But it just occurred to me....There is not anything associated with the Dallas Cowboys in the City of Dallas.  Or even in Dallas County. 

[BTG_Fan1]

The real questions is about money... If we did this and SMU was a home game one of those years we only have 5 home games, that means UNT actually only has 4 at Apogee. 

What would be the cost of UNT/SMU at the Cotton Bowl? But it would be great, but instead of Cotton Bowl, we have a partnership with the Cowboys, maybe we could do something at Jerry World and get Alumi from all over to come see Jerry world...Doing something like that would/could be huge for UNT. Bringing in recruits as well.

[Rudy]

17 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

I actually like this idea way better than the Cotton Bowl.

It's about demand.

Think small, be small.

4 hours ago, Boca_Nasty_96 said:

YES, Especially with UTSA since technically their our rivals 

GMG  

1. They're not widely thought of as our rival.

2. They bring enough to Denton, much less the Cotton Bowl.

3. No one in the fair would give a rat's ass about them.

[Ryan Munthe]

21 minutes ago, Rudy said:

Think small, be small.

1. They're not widely thought of as our rival.

2. They bring enough to Denton, much less the Cotton Bowl.

3. No one in the fair would give a rat's ass about them.

Yeah man, fill that 80K seat stadium!! Hell yes!!

We'd be lucky to fill the Star. 

Edited October 12, 2016 by Ryan Munthe

[Mike Jackson]

7 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Come on, dude.  Even though they lack the proper use of paragraphs, I love your posts, but I have to ask...

...have you seen the push Arlington has put on to keep the Rangers there? It's a civic effort.   

Laura Miller was the Mayor.  Jerry Jones was willing to move to Dallas for the right deal.  She didn't understand that because she was a journalist, not a business man...or woman. Whatever.  She had no business sense.

As distasteful as it seems, if you want business in your city, you have to play nice with developers and business folk.  She wouldn't do it.  She was constantly in journalist/suspicious mode.

And, if you can't see that having the Dallas Cowboys in your city named Dallas might help it just a bit economically...?  Come on. 

The difference between Miller and Rawling is night and day. 

Arlington sees what happened with the Cowboys.  They see Dallas has opened a play area to practice in here in Frisco.  They see lots and lots of open land around the edges of Denton, Collin, and Tarrant county.  They realize that if Arlington doesn't step up to the plate, the Rangers will go where they can get their best deal.

I guarantee you that every mayor and city council in the DFW area with a mile or two or open fields - or, old buildings and houses to "condemn" - is in the ear of Ranger ownership trying to sell its city on them.

I stand by my assessment of what happened.  Look, I didn't like Laura Miller.   She was poor/average/unpopular mayor.  Choose your negative adjective.  But I think you are overestimating the symbolic power of the Dallas Mayor.  The City of Dallas needed money from Dallas County to make the stadium happen and like I said before the county commissioners did not want more voters showing up to the polls.  The people of Dallas wanted the Cowboys and way more people in government didn't including probably Laura Miller.  The more they stay off the radar the better it is for them usually cause most people don't even know who their Congressmen is let alone city councilman.

 As for economic help from a stadium the studies done on their impact say that they are usually flat and far less than what the city or county invested in them.  The Rangers are  different deal they have 81 games a year regular season, plus preseason and playoffs.  I will grant you the Dallas Cowboys in Fair Park was a no brainer.   Because most stadiums in those studies aren't built in historic entertainment areas with 100 year event that draws millions every year.

They will throw money at the Rangers but I think if they don't have entertainment district development plan in conjunction with the stadium it would be a foolish move.  It is all about keeping fans in the area before and after games to get the revenue to justify giving these teams money.  They would be a perfect fit for downtown Fort Worth or downtown Dallas (on the grounds  of old Reunion Arena).  I don't see them as fit for Denton with the lack of public transit and the condition of I-35E.

It all about location and transportation it my experience.  The best known and iconic stadiums around the country are usually near downtown and close to transportation hubs.  UNT had drawing produced a fews back with rail station for the DCTA terminating in the Super Pit area.  That isn't going to happen because of the cost of extending the line.  (Well at least that what I heard the last time i was in a suite at Apogee.)

[FirefightnRick]

No.

 

Rick

[shaft]

As someone who wrote his graduate thesis on Dallas Cowboy's Stadium Decision and as some someone who worked in the Dallas City Manager's Office I have bit to add to the Laura Miller sub-thread.

Jerry Jones and the Cowboys wanted a downtown stadium, the City of Dallas wanted the Fair Park location.  The City of Dallas loses money on Fair Park every year (at the time it was between $500k-$1 million), but there was more revenue opportunities at the downtown site, the Los Colinas site, and ultimately the Arlington site. 

 

[Rudy]

6 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Yeah man, fill that 80K seat stadium!! Hell yes!!

We'd be lucky to fill the Star. 

And you think Air Force/New Mexico is going to fill the Cotton Bowl?

[GangGreen]

12 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Come on, dude.  Even though they lack the proper use of paragraphs, I love your posts, but I have to ask...

...have you seen the push Arlington has put on to keep the Rangers there? It's a civic effort.   

I have written proper paragraphs. I have read proper paragraphs. Proper paragraphs have been a friend of mine. 

Senator, you know nothing about a proper paragraph.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

16 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

I stand by my assessment of what happened.  Look, I didn't like Laura Miller.   She was poor/average/unpopular mayor.  Choose your negative adjective.  But I think you are overestimating the symbolic power of the Dallas Mayor.  The City of Dallas needed money from Dallas County to make the stadium happen and like I said before the county commissioners did not want more voters showing up to the polls.  The people of Dallas wanted the Cowboys and way more people in government didn't including probably Laura Miller.  The more they stay off the radar the better it is for them usually cause most people don't even know who their Congressmen is let alone city councilman.

 As for economic help from a stadium the studies done on their impact say that they are usually flat and far less than what the city or county invested in them.  The Rangers are  different deal they have 81 games a year regular season, plus preseason and playoffs.  I will grant you the Dallas Cowboys in Fair Park was a no brainer.   Because most stadiums in those studies aren't built in historic entertainment areas with 100 year event that draws millions every year.

They will throw money at the Rangers but I think if they don't have entertainment district development plan in conjunction with the stadium it would be a foolish move.  It is all about keeping fans in the area before and after games to get the revenue to justify giving these teams money.  They would be a perfect fit for downtown Fort Worth or downtown Dallas (on the grounds  of old Reunion Arena).  I don't see them as fit for Denton with the lack of public transit and the condition of I-35E.

It all about location and transportation it my experience.  The best known and iconic stadiums around the country are usually near downtown and close to transportation hubs.  UNT had drawing produced a fews back with rail station for the DCTA terminating in the Super Pit area.  That isn't going to happen because of the cost of extending the line.  (Well at least that what I heard the last time i was in a suite at Apogee.)

In case you hadn't noticed, the Dallas Cowboys football games aren't the only use of JerryWorld:  Bowl games, Baylor-Tech game series, A&M-Arkansas games series, a college football kickoff game, concerts, UIL football championships, fitness events, youth events, Mexican National Team soccer matches, boxing matches, banquets, monster truck shows, professional bull riding, professional rodeo...
http://attstadium.com/events
http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121913aab.html
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/high-school/high-schools/2016/05/26/uil-announces-state-championship-football-games-will-return-att-stadium-2016-2017
https://www.spartan.com/en/race/detail/2299/overview
http://spiritcelebration.com/event-info/events/dallas-cowboys-cheerleaders-national-championship/
http://www.igarss2017.org/SocialEvents.asp
http://ama-monster-energy-supercross.ticketsarlington.net/

So, they are getting as much - and, I'd argue more - use out of JerryWorld than Texas gets out of the Rangers.

Landing JerryWorld wasn't a two preseason game, eight regular season game, maybe a playoff game or two affair.  It was built as a multi-event center and has always been used as such.  It's been a great for Arlington.  It also means that the new Ranger ballpark doesn't have to be the multi-event complex that JerryWorld is. 

Anyway, thanks to then-Mayor Miller and the merry band of idiots that comprised the Dallas city council at the time, those many non-Cowboy football events are now in Arlington - along with all of the restaurants, hotel, and retail business that goes along with the events.

So, again...you are seeing and hearing a sh*t ton of support from Arlington pols and civic groups about keeping the Rangers. 

As far as Denton goes, you have to have figured out by now that very few people in Denton care about sports.  The only reason we may think there's a chance is that we regularly visit this Denton/Denton-related Sports echo chamber called gomeangreen.com. 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

[Mike Jackson]

7 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

In case you hadn't noticed, the Dallas Cowboys football games aren't the only use of JerryWorld:  Bowl games, Baylor-Tech game series, A&M-Arkansas games series, a college football kickoff game, concerts, UIL football championships, fitness events, youth events, Mexican National Team soccer matches, boxing matches, banquets, monster truck shows, professional bull riding, professional rodeo...
http://attstadium.com/events
http://www.mgoblue.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/121913aab.html
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/high-school/high-schools/2016/05/26/uil-announces-state-championship-football-games-will-return-att-stadium-2016-2017
https://www.spartan.com/en/race/detail/2299/overview
http://spiritcelebration.com/event-info/events/dallas-cowboys-cheerleaders-national-championship/
http://www.igarss2017.org/SocialEvents.asp
http://ama-monster-energy-supercross.ticketsarlington.net/

So, they are getting as much - and, I'd argue more - use out of JerryWorld than Texas gets out of the Rangers.

Landing JerryWorld wasn't a two preseason game, eight regular season game, maybe a playoff game or two affair.  It was built as a multi-event center and has always been used as such.  It's been a great for Arlington.  It also means that the new Ranger ballpark doesn't have to be the multi-event complex that JerryWorld is. 

Anyway, thanks to then-Mayor Miller and the merry band of idiots that comprised the Dallas city council at the time, those many non-Cowboy football events are now in Arlington - along with all of the restaurants, hotel, and retail business that goes along with the events.

So, again...you are seeing and hearing a sh*t ton of support from Arlington pols and civic groups about keeping the Rangers. 

As far as Denton goes, you have to have figured out by now that very few people in Denton care about sports.  The only reason we may think there's a chance is that we regularly visit this Denton/Denton-related Sports echo chamber called gomeangreen.com. 

 

 

Half of the events listed aren't really worth mentioning when it comes to revenue for the immediate Arlington area.  And most of these event still doesn't come close to the utilizing more than 70% of the stadiums capacity.  The www.igarss2017.org makes no mention of the stadium as a location either.  Working down the street from the stadium the "hang out" crowd is not nearly as impactful as you think.  Several restaurants  close after Jerryworld was complete.  

Building a stadium without an existing entertainment district around it (or one in the works) and good public transit is foolish.   People are less likely to hang around in the area if they have to drive home.   The people who study their impact all can't be wrong.  

As for Laura Miller and merry band of idiots on the city council then I would argue not much has changed since then but a better mayor.  

People in Denton do care about sports just not UNT Sports.  I grew up in Denton and I did know that UNT still played football (Div IA or I AA) until I got a free ticket in high school.  Vaguely knew that Mean Joe Green played here.

[JesseMartin]

On 10/10/2016 at 9:05 PM, MeanGreenMailbox said:

On 10/12/2016 at 1:39 PM, greenjoe said:

Since I'm not a fan of pro football, I haven't really kept up with the Joneses.  But it just occurred to me....There is not anything associated with the Dallas Cowboys in the City of Dallas.  Or even in Dallas County. 

Isn't the practice field in Irving?  Or has that moved since I left as well?

[Mike Jackson]

20 hours ago, shaft said:

As someone who wrote his graduate thesis on Dallas Cowboy's Stadium Decision and as some someone who worked in the Dallas City Manager's Office I have bit to add to the Laura Miller sub-thread.

Jerry Jones and the Cowboys wanted a downtown stadium, the City of Dallas wanted the Fair Park location.  The City of Dallas loses money on Fair Park every year (at the time it was between $500k-$1 million), but there was more revenue opportunities at the downtown site, the Los Colinas site, and ultimately the Arlington site. 

 

I thought toward the end Jerry was open to a Fair Park stadium.  I even recalled plans released only to keep the iconic entrance to the Cotton Bowl as an entrance to a plaza leading to the new stadium.  So was my assessment that the City of Dallas needed money from Dallas County to make the finances of a Fair Park location palatable to Jerry correct?  Or is my memory off?

 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

15 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

Half of the events listed aren't really worth mentioning when it comes to revenue for the immediate Arlington area.  And most of these event still doesn't come close to the utilizing more than 70% of the stadiums capacity.  The www.igarss2017.org makes no mention of the stadium as a location either.  Working down the street from the stadium the "hang out" crowd is not nearly as impactful as you think.  Several restaurants  close after Jerryworld was complete.  

Building a stadium without an existing entertainment district around it (or one in the works) and good public transit is foolish.   People are less likely to hang around in the area if they have to drive home.   The people who study their impact all can't be wrong.  

As for Laura Miller and merry band of idiots on the city council then I would argue not much has changed since then but a better mayor.  

People in Denton do care about sports just not UNT Sports.  I grew up in Denton and I did know that UNT still played football (Div IA or I AA) until I got a free ticket in high school.  Vaguely knew that Mean Joe Green played here.

Do you seriously think those events don't come close to 70%

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/soccer/soccerheadlines/2012/06/03/record-soccer-crowd-cheers-on-mexico-brazil-match-at-cowboys-stadium
http://www.espnfc.us/team/mexico/203/blog/post/2813537/mexico-fans-give-el-tri-a-lift-in-copa-america-centenario

And, not just when Brazil and Argentina are there.  Here is a video of the 82,000 for the 2009 game against Haiti: 

I'd be willing to bet Dallas' restaurants and retailers would have loved to have the 82,000+ the Mexican National Team draws to Arlington. 

But, it seems that you pooh-pooh any form of attendance unless its a sellout.  I guarantee you Arlington's restaurants, hotels, and retailers do not.

Here's a 2014 article showing the draws to Arlington due to JerryWorld
George Strait concert:  104,793
NCAA Final Four:  79,238
NBA All-Star Game:  108,713
Pacquiao-Clottey fight:  50,994

The the engineering firm is having their banquet there.  That's the point.  It's multi-use, getting people and organization into Arlington to spend money.

I'm sorry, but one of the main points of being a Mayor or City Council member is to attract dollars to your city's businesses.  Miller and the entire Dallas body politic failed tremendously.  

And, again, they fighting very publicly to keep the Rangers in Arlington as well.  Miller and Dallas put up no such fight when trying to get the Dallas Cowboys to move their home to...Dallas! 

[Mike Jackson]

8 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Do you seriously think those events don't come close to 70%

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/soccer/soccerheadlines/2012/06/03/record-soccer-crowd-cheers-on-mexico-brazil-match-at-cowboys-stadium
http://www.espnfc.us/team/mexico/203/blog/post/2813537/mexico-fans-give-el-tri-a-lift-in-copa-america-centenario

And, not just when Brazil and Argentina are there.  Here is a video of the 82,000 for the 2009 game against Haiti: 

I'd be willing to bet Dallas' restaurants and retailers would have loved to have the 82,000+ the Mexican National Team draws to Arlington. 

But, it seems that you pooh-pooh any form of attendance unless its a sellout.  I guarantee you Arlington's restaurants, hotels, and retailers do not.

Here's a 2014 article showing the draws to Arlington due to JerryWorld
George Strait concert:  104,793
NCAA Final Four:  79,238
NBA All-Star Game:  108,713
Pacquiao-Clottey fight:  50,994

The the engineering firm is having their banquet there.  That's the point.  It's multi-use, getting people and organization into Arlington to spend money.

I'm sorry, but one of the main points of being a Mayor or City Council member is to attract dollars to your city's businesses.  Miller and the entire Dallas body politic failed tremendously.  

And, again, they fighting very publicly to keep the Rangers in Arlington as well.  Miller and Dallas put up no such fight when trying to get the Dallas Cowboys to move their home to...Dallas! 

 

8 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Here's a 2014 article showing the draws to Arlington due to JerryWorld
George Strait concert:  104,793
NCAA Final Four:  79,238
NBA All-Star Game:  108,713
Pacquiao-Clottey fight:  50,994

These are a handful of events and the fight you listed was well below the 70%  (especially damaging to your argument  when list George Strait and the NBA Allstar Game event attendance at well over 100k).   And at best you might get 2 of these major events a year.   The whole country is competing trying to get NBA All Star Games and NCAA Final 4. Most of the events you referenced before draw way less than the ones you just mentioned.  During a given calendar year JerryWorld might have 12 other events besides Cowboys games that draw 70% capacity.  So lets just average Cowboys home games at 8 Regular Season, 2 Preseason, and 1 Playoff Game.  That is 11 + 12 additional non Dallas Cowboys events that get that 70% number.   That is 23 events compared to 81 and even if only 50% of the 81 games reach 70% capacity mark you are talking about 40 events.  Your argument isn't mathematically supportable even when I give you the benefit of  doubt and low ball estimate Ranger's games attendance.