DRC: breaking - Consultants report critical of UNT

[UNTFan23]

1 minute ago, NorthTexan95 said:

We could remodel the Super Pit.  We could take out a lot of seats, put in boxes and other amenities, and have a really nice place. However, we probably still need a place that can seat that many for other events.  I've always thought a new area where Fouts was located would be really nice bookends around I-35 and provide a great first look when people come to our school.  You could also build one where the old hotel was.  

I live in Richmond, VA and we've purchased a small package for bball games the past few years.  They have good teams and the atmosphere is terrific.  It's kinda downtown so you can park, walk around to restaurants to eat, and then go into the game.  It wasn't until a few years ago they got a center hung scoreboard but still had a great atmosphere.  

The other benefit to building a new arena is we wouldn't have to share it so much with the university.  It would be available more often to our teams for practice and games. 

The university has other plans for the land Fouts currently occupies. I think more intramural fields and a parking garage are in the plans among one or two other things.

[EagleMBA]

39 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Not sure why this is surprising, I've been harping on it for years:

It could have been WORSE! I had one foot out the door when the announcement of old whats-his-name's "departure" halted me. How many others would not be in the current number but for that event?

[NorthTexan95]

Just now, UNTFan23 said:

The university has other plans for the land Fouts currently occupies. I think more intramural fields and a parking garage are in the plans among one or two other things.

I know but I always thought a new arena would look good there.  

[Zeke]

[UNTFan23]

Just now, NorthTexan95 said:

I know but I always thought a new arena would look good there.  

How would administration leaders justify having both the Coliseum and SuperPit v2 standing side by side?

[UNT90]

9 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

How would administration leaders justify having both the Coliseum and SuperPit v2 standing side by side?

They wanted to finally commit to athletics? 

26 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

This would actually be really, really awesome. Many alum, students, and fans attend college events because of just the atmosphere of collegiate sports. Having a 5K place would create just that kind of atmosphere where sellouts could and would happen on any given night. The place would obviously be smaller and therefore would be much more electrifying and just enjoyable. Supply and demand would create more season ticket holders alone. I'm not a basketball season ticket holder, never will be. It's just not my thing. But I do attend 6-8 home games a year because 1) I enjoy the game and 2) I come to support UNT. But this would at least make me rethink getting basketball season tickets. 

Can someone confirm...I know that the idea that was pushed from the old regime was that The Pit is actually a university building and not an athletic building? Either way...it's used for MBB, WBB, graduations, and the very rare concert or speaking event. Can't we just tear that old thing down, athletic of university building? And if a 5k place does come to reality, put it there? Or is The Pit here to stand forever? 

People need to check out UTA's facility and game day experience. Wish UNT basketball had that... and a coach, of course. 

[EagleMBA]

8 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

How would administration leaders justify having both the Coliseum and SuperPit v2 standing side by side?

You find yourself driving along North Texas Blvd., you glance to one side, and voila! The Coliseum and SuperPit v2, a matched pair!

[MeanGreenHoops]

No offense to those who think we need more than 6K for basketball but we just don't. I've been going to games since the 80's and could probably count on one hand the times we needed more than 6K seats. 6K is probably too many.

What would be better and easier for anyone selling the product is a great atmosphere with amenities, and then scarcity of seats.

Sure we had 7K for Tech once, who cares. A lot of those were free customers (students) and the rest paid like 7 bucks once (that game only).

What the discussion about MGC illustrates in this thread is that we need a lot more people committed. Like 3,500 season ticket holders for basketball. That way when the game against Tech happens again those people already have seats in our 5K arena because they bought in to the program and aren't left checking Stub Hub and paying $100 for that one game (i can dream right?)

If/when you have a season ticket waiting list you can worry about a bigger place.

Edited September 29, 2016 by MeanGreenHoops
spelling is for my auto-correct to figure out

[UNT90]

The main theme I get after reading the entire report is that the AD members were much more concerned about self protection and compensation than they were concerned about actually doing their job.

They also always took the easiest path. Whore games meant less fundraising work, for example. Whatever made their life easier was the goal, not making UNT athletics successful (there are obvious exceptions in the lower ranks). 

I would really like to see a house cleaning of the top administrators still employed. They were in a position to do something about this. They didn't. That shouldn't be tolerated inside an organization as large as UNT. 

[Army of Dad]

2 minutes ago, MeanGreenHoops said:

No offense to those who think we need more thank 6K for basketball but we just don't. I've been going to games since the 80's and could probably count on one hand the times we needed more than 6K seats. 6K is probably too many.

What would be better and easier for anyone selling the product is a great atmosphere with amenities, and then scarcity of seats.

Sure we had 7K for Tech once, who cares. A lot of those were free customers (students) and the rest paid like 7 bucks once (that game only).

What the discussion about MGC illustrates in this thread is that we need a lot more people committed. Like 3,500 season ticket holders for basketball. That way when the game against Tech happens again those people already have seats in our 5K arena because they bought in to the program and aren't left checking Stub Hub and paying $100 for that one game (i can dream right?)

If/When you have a season ticket waiting list you can worry about a bigger place.

If/when you have a winning program you can worry about replacing the place you have now?

Similar logic.

If we had not hired the wrong guy and then compounded that mistake by retaining him all this time we wouldn't be having a discussion of 5k seat stadiums. Top that off with the general incompetence in the AD and you get what we have. The right coach and AD support combo and we draw 6-7k for even the bad conference games in just 2-3 seasons...

[GrandGreen]

Some observations after reading the total report.

1.  It is amazing how long all this has been covered up or ignored.  RV didn't act in a vacuum.  He has served under 4 or 5 administrations with mostly raves and contract increases.  This lack of overall financial oversight was evident with the State funding debacle and makes you wonder about the financial oversight of the whole NT system.   I guess being a county judge does not prepare one to be financial responsible.   Financial controls have to be mandated and reviewed at the very top and apparently both the BOR and the Chancellor have failed in those duties.   

2.  Although little in this report really was news, I thought the lack of general maintenance and failure to provide basic equipment to athletes was disturbing.  A little strange, that some of RV's most ballyhooed accomplishments such as the Athletic complex and tennis courts have been allowed to fall to a state of such disrepair.  

3.  I disagree strongly with the recommendation to look at building a new basketball facility.   That is so far down the list of AD needs, it should be ignored.  Since the addition of the center scoreboard, my only complaint is the poor functioning ticket purchasing operation.   Even with the next to nothing current attendance it is too difficult to buy a ticket, and forget it if you actually want to select the section where you want to sit.   

4.  A problem with all these types of analysis is the reliance on questionable data not only from NT but from peers.   For instance, I doubt anyone knows what is considered recruiting expenses at most other CUSA schools.   There are few reporting standards and obviously next to no review.   For instance, NT running debt service cost through operating expenses gave the allusion that NT's budget was much higher than it is in reality.   Problem is those types of games are commonly played by a lot of schools.   

5.  As bad as the Mean Green Club numbers are, they are really much worse if you considers that a large percentage of those donations are made for desirable seating options.  Yes, most programs have similar requirements, but I doubt many come close to the percentage raised in this manner to NT.   

6.  Totally agree with indoor facility priority.   It should be used by all teams that need it, and be suitable for indoor track.

7.  After reading this, it is evident that no matter how difficult Litrell's job is in reviving the football program; it is far less than what Baker is charged with.  

[MeanGreenTexan]

My only worry with tabling Baseball is that the talent all around the state of Texas is astounding.   Heck, if a team like DBU can be a big-time player in NCAA baseball, UNT certainly can.
I know we can say the same thing about football, on the surface... 
but football allows for 85 FULL scholarships per team in D1... not to mention the lower levels.   Baseball only allows for 11.7 scholarships per team to be split up between all players.

I really feel like UNT would INSTANTLY field a winning team in baseball with the right coaching hire.

[NorthTexan95]

2 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Some observations after reading the total report.

7.  After reading this, it is evident that no matter how difficult Litrell's job is in reviving the football program; it is far less than what Baker is charged with.  

Great point.

[SSP]

Ok... Can someone help me?

 I've heard the majority of you complain about the AD for the last several years.   I am close friends with multiple North Texas professors and a couple of long time family friends that hold high-level executive positions on campus. I am not alumni but I have four people in my family that have graduated at the University of North Texas and I have two children that could be potential student athletes or even just students at some future juncture.  

 I see a lot in this report (And I have not read all of it ) that SCREAMS incompetency.   HOW do you have this many hands in the fire and it not come up sooner?

 And where HAS all of the money gone????????????? 

Edited September 29, 2016 by SSP

[UNT90]

2 minutes ago, NorthTexan95 said:

Great point.

The Wren Baker hire was ALWAYS the more important hire. 

Littrell has to correct a 2 year problem. Baker has to correct a 15 year disaster. 

[aztecskin]

4 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Some observations after reading the total report.

 

2.  Although little in this report really was news, I thought the lack of general maintenance and failure to provide basic equipment to athletes was disturbing.  A little strange, that some of RV's most ballyhooed accomplishments such as the Athletic complex and tennis courts have been allowed to fall to a state of such disrepair.  

3.  I disagree strongly with the recommendation to look at building a new basketball facility.   That is so far down the list of AD needs, it should be ignored.  Since the addition of the center scoreboard, my only complaint is the poor functioning ticket purchasing operation.   Even with the next to nothing current attendance it is too difficult to buy a ticket, and forget it if you actually want to select the section where you want to sit.   

7.  After reading this, it is evident that no matter how difficult Litrell's job is in reviving the football program; it is far less than what Baker is charged with.  

I have similar conclusions, but I particularly agree with these. There is plenty of work to be done that will have positive effects in the short term before the large work of building a new facility begins. It seems that financial controls that allow for larger recruiting budgets, equipment acquisitions, smaller facility improvements like EFFING_lawn care_ will have greater returns in the short to intermediate time period. 

 

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

Just now, SSP said:

Ok... Can someone help me?

 I've heard the majority of you complain about the AD  for the last several years.   I am close friends with multiple North Texas professors and a couple of long time family friends that hold a high-level executive positions on campus. I am not alumni but I have four people in my family but Have graduated at the University of North Texas and I have two children that could be potential student athletes or even just students at some future juncture.  

 I see a lot in this report (And I have not read all of it ) that SCREAMS incompetency.   HOW do you have this many hands in the fire and it not come up sooner?

 And where HAS all of the money gone????????????? 

An accounting audit may be in order, if one hasn't already started. That's one thing we should have learned from the last accounting debacle on campus,

[Army of Dad]

6 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

My only worry with tabling Baseball is that the talent all around the state of Texas is astounding.   Heck, if a team like DBU can be a big-time player in NCAA baseball, UNT certainly can.
I know we can say the same thing about football, on the surface... 
but football allows for 85 FULL scholarships per team in D1... not to mention the lower levels.   Baseball only allows for 11.7 scholarships per team to be split up between all players.

I really feel like UNT would INSTANTLY field a winning team in baseball with the right coaching hire.

Agree, it's much easier to make noise on a regional or national level in baseball than football or basketball. 

That isnt to say it's easy of course, but with the right support...

[MeanGreenHoops]

11 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Some observations after reading the total report.

1.  It is amazing how long all this has been covered up or ignored.  RV didn't act in a vacuum.  He has served under 4 or 5 administrations with mostly raves and contract increases.  This lack of overall financial oversight was evident with the State funding debacle and makes you wonder about the financial oversight of the whole NT system.   I guess being a county judge does not prepare one to be financial responsible.   Financial controls have to be mandated and reviewed at the very top and apparently both the BOR and the Chancellor have failed in those duties.   

2.  Although little in this report really was news, I thought the lack of general maintenance and failure to provide basic equipment to athletes was disturbing.  A little strange, that some of RV's most ballyhooed accomplishments such as the Athletic complex and tennis courts have been allowed to fall to a state of such disrepair.  

3.  I disagree strongly with the recommendation to look at building a new basketball facility.   That is so far down the list of AD needs, it should be ignored.  Since the addition of the center scoreboard, my only complaint is the poor functioning ticket purchasing operation.   Even with the next to nothing current attendance it is too difficult to buy a ticket, and forget it if you actually want to select the section where you want to sit.   

4.  A problem with all these types of analysis is the reliance on questionable data not only from NT but from peers.   For instance, I doubt anyone knows what is considered recruiting expenses at most other CUSA schools.   There are few reporting standards and obviously next to no review.   For instance, NT running debt service cost through operating expenses gave the allusion that NT's budget was much higher than it is in reality.   Problem is those types of games are commonly played by a lot of schools.   

5.  As bad as the Mean Green Club numbers are, they are really much worse if you considers that a large percentage of those donations are made for desirable seating options.  Yes, most programs have similar requirements, but I doubt many come close to the percentage raised in this manner to NT.   

6.  Totally agree with indoor facility priority.   It should be used by all teams that need it, and be suitable for indoor track.

7.  After reading this, it is evident that no matter how difficult Litrell's job is in reviving the football program; it is far less than what Baker is charged with.  

Good take. And although I was arguing that I liked the new basketball arena idea, I agree with you that it is last priority on this report.

I only argued for it because it showed two things. 1 that the report made sense from an overall look at what we should be doing, and 2 it was used to illustrate how the lack of overall support for programs (meaning season tickets) is what makes the state were in now much more difficult to overcome.

Edited September 29, 2016 by MeanGreenHoops
further thought

[SSP]

2 minutes ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

An accounting audit may be in order, if one hasn't already started. That's one thing we should have learned from the last accounting debacle on campus,

WHY is this NOW a concern after all of these years?  WHY...  With as many boosters and people on this board with connections with the BOR...  HAS THIS NOT BEEN ADDRESSED? I don't get it.

Edited September 29, 2016 by SSP

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

1 minute ago, SSP said:

WHY is this NOW a concern after all of these years?  WHY...  With as many boosters and people on this board with connections with the BOR...  HAS THIS NOT BEEN ADDRESSED? I don't get it.

Everyone was saying the same thing after Enron. Usually, it's because the good people don't speak up.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, UNTFan23 said:

Certainly not a max 4k arena. I'd be fine with a 8k arena as we've come close to hitting that level a couple times against schools like Oklahoma State and Texas Tech.  6k in an 8k arena would look really good if the program can get back to the level Johnny Jones had it at.

Tulsa's basketball arena, holds a little over 8k and cost somewhere near $25 million back in the mid-to-late 90s. 

I'm thinking today, the same boost would cost near $40 million. 

Difference:  TU's old, white and blue-haired money boosters really love basketball.  They were content to give the football stadium a nice facelift...but, scratch the surface a bit, and it's still the old Skelly Stadium where my mom cheered back in the late 50s/early 60s.

Having attended both schools, it has puzzled me that the TU grads - and, we're talk about a school whose undergraduate enrollment is only about 3,000 - give a lot more than NTSU/UNT grads.  The sheer numbers of NT grads dwarf the TU grad population. 

And, except for the minor brain farts of elevating Tulsa area legends from assistant position when head coaches were hired away, John Phillips and Bill Blankenship, TU has tended to hire decent basketball and football coaches, usually assistants on the rise.

Anyway, here's the outlook as far as DI college basketball arenas go:

Basketball Arenas Of The NCAA Division I Schools:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_basketball_arenas

[SSP]

1 minute ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Everyone was saying the same thing after Enron. Usually, it's because the good people don't speak up.

MAKE NO MISTAKE:

This report will hurt UNT recruiting in ALL SPORTS this year.

[Cerebus]

5 minutes ago, SSP said:

 I see a lot in this report (And I have not read all of it ) that SCREAMS incompetency.   HOW do you have this many hands in the fire and it not come up sooner?

Lack of over site.  Plenty of people have complained.  However if someone's boss isn't reacting to those complaints then you have to rely on the person you are complaining about to fix it... 

 

2 minutes ago, SSP said:

WHY is this NOW a concern after all of these years?  WHY...  With as many boosters and people on this board with connections with the BOR...  HAS THIS NOT BEEN ADDRESSED? I don't get it.

Have you ever tried to get face to face time with the president?  I can assure you certain people on this board have.  About this very  issue.  

I think Dr. Pohl was starting to ask a lot of questions, but then he got taken down by backing a provost who had made a lot of wrong decisions.  Otherwise most other presidents have not paid a lot of attention to athletics, no matter what they have said in public.  

The BOR is even harder to talk to, and is more or less always going to refer you to the campus president about a matter like this.  

[UNTFan23]

2 minutes ago, SSP said:

MAKE NO MISTAKE:

This report will hurt UNT recruiting in ALL SPORTS this year.

If Wren and his lieutenants can't show that a plan of action is in place to address these deficiencies then yes, it will hurt recruiting.

Edited September 29, 2016 by UNTFan23