SMU HC Chad Morris on UNT: "Big Rivalry"

Cr1028 · August 29, 2016

5 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

We're not rivals in any sense except that we both have sucked for so long, we'll do anything for attention. SMU at least has some historic rivals with TCU, Baylor, Rice... they've just done such a bad job SINCE the death penalty that those have gone dormant.

This is purely coach speak.

There's no clearer proof that SMU isn't our rival than the fact that we have to debate it every year on this board, and this board only represents the handful of hardcore fans that still give a damn. If they were our rival, there'd be no debate.

Ok, question, who is Texas Tech's rival, or Baylor's rival?

Cerebus · August 29, 2016

2 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Ok, question, who is Texas Tech's rival, or Baylor's rival?

Tech: Anyone who is in the B12 who doesn't have to live in Lubbock.

Baylor: Anyone who is in the B12 who gets to dance.

MJavierSMU · August 29, 2016

5 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

Announced attendance was 1903. I don't recall the game as to whether the attendance was factually reported or not.

Sorry, I was a little high with the guess but my point is the official number was obviously tickets sold and not butts in seats. Every school does it that way.

Monkeypox · August 29, 2016

1 minute ago, Cr1028 said:

Ok, question, who is Texas Tech's rival, or Baylor's rival?

Texas Tech had SWC rivalries with Texas and A&M that carried into the Big 12. With A&M leaving and UT and Tech faltering, its weaker now, but still real.

Like SMU, those rivalries are more dormant these days, for a variety of reasons. But they're still actual rivals, with a solid historical foundation that still carries through for current students and alumni.

Baylor's is TCU. All the SWC privates hated each other, and then sort of collectively hated the big publics. But they're still strong rivals with TCU now. Probably the strongest rivalry going right now in the Big 12. They've played each other 100+ times going back to the 1800s and they're about even in record.

Army of Dad · August 29, 2016

11 minutes ago, MJavierSMU said:

Western Kentucky. That is why I came to this site to ask about the game. And I was not greeted kindly, which really surprised me. I found out that I'm a d-bag, I pop my collar and my rich dad got me into SMU. lol

First, I've saw a fair number of SMU games one season in your D'oh era and you have no high ground to claim for MBB attendance.

Also, I go to almost every UNT home game and I don't recall a huge disparity in announced attendance and butts in seats for that Weatern game, but...

8 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

Announced attendance was 1903. I don't recall the game as to whether the attendance was factually reported or not.

...It's weird, I checked the game thread and none of us noted the apparent attendance. I seem to think it wasn't bad for last season*, but it could be that we all had become numbed to the state of the program and attendance.

UNT90 · August 29, 2016

5 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

No. Coach speak would be something like, "They're a well coached team up there with some nice players. They had a down year last year, but we won't be taking them lightly... blah, blah, blah...", talking but not saying anything. This is a pointed comment, either as a reply to a question, or made on his own.

Don't think UNT is your "rival"? Don't volunteer that quote. Or, if you were asked point-blank, you can say something like the above to go around it... like what McCarney did last year.

Trying to motivate his team. Little else. Their fans don't care.

GreenTexan13 · August 29, 2016

26 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Coach speak. Maybe you have heard that of it. Coaches don't decide who is a rival.

He is a coaching trying to motivate his team for the first week of the season.

But it's nice to know that you love SMU's coach so much. ?

You and the SMU guy that keeps commenting on here would make great pals. Maybe y'all should meet up at the tailgate on Saturday?

OH Wait......

SMU fans don't go to the games.... That's right...

MJavierSMU · August 29, 2016

I liked the super pit and enjoyed the game. Your team had talent but seemed unsure of what to do late in the game.

untjim1995 · August 29, 2016

36 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

Texas Tech had SWC rivalries with Texas and A&M that carried into the Big 12. With A&M leaving and UT and Tech faltering, its weaker now, but still real.

Like SMU, those rivalries are more dormant these days, for a variety of reasons. But they're still actual rivals, with a solid historical foundation that still carries through for current students and alumni.

Baylor's is TCU. All the SWC privates hated each other, and then sort of collectively hated the big publics. But they're still strong rivals with TCU now. Probably the strongest rivalry going right now in the Big 12. They've played each other 100+ times going back to the 1800s and they're about even in record.

Rivalries are funny--as a matter of fact, we have seen how the bigger opponents look down on the other one---until they start beating them regularly.

Think about this: If you ask any UT fan who their biggest rival is, immediately it is OU. But Texas was A&M's fiercest rival and OU is OSU's fiercest rival. But to Tech, A&M was their biggest rival.

On this list, Baylor is TCU's biggest rival, but SMU loathes TCU, while UNT loathes SMU, and UTSA hates us.

The college football totem pole of existence isn't just about conference affiliation...

Matt from A700 · August 29, 2016

UNT/SMU are rivals. It's a lopsided rivalry, but a rivalry nonetheless. Hopefully this series continues until at least 2025 and UNT can improve on that 15% winning percentage.

Cr1028 · August 29, 2016

32 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Rivalries are funny--as a matter of fact, we have seen how the bigger opponents look down on the other one---until they start beating them regularly.

Think about this: If you ask any UT fan who their biggest rival is, immediately it is OU. But Texas was A&M's fiercest rival and OU is OSU's fiercest rival. But to Tech, A&M was their biggest rival.

On this list, Baylor is TCU's biggest rival, but SMU loathes TCU, while UNT loathes SMU, and UTSA hates us.

The college football totem pole of existence isn't just about conference affiliation...

well said. well said.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Cr1028

Silent Eagle · August 29, 2016

1 hour ago, MJavierSMU said:

I never mentioned the national championship. You did. I never mentioned football blue bloods. You did. Our attendance in football is terrible unless we're playing a former SWC rival, there is no denying that. As for cooking up attendance numbers, it is the same practice at every school - UNT, TCU, Baylor, Texas St, Rice or name any other school. They count tickets sold. I went to a UNT basketball game last season and there might have been 500 people in the place but the announced attendance was around 3,000. Y'all act like SMU is the only one who does this. The cheating thing has been beat to death but again, everyone was doing it, SMU just got caught. We deserved what we got but so did UT, A&M, TCU.......

SMU and UNT are at the same level of success right now but we are not the same program. We are coming from vastly different places. History does count for something. The value or meaning of that history is debatable. SMU and Rice is a better comparison as being the SAME program. Based on the comments on this board most of the hate of SMU has nothing to do with athletic competition. It seems to have more to do with the broad brush you paint anyone associated with SMU. That alone doesn't make a rivalry. Has one of our games (football or basketball) ever sold out? Two schools located an hour apart and a game has never sold out? That's a rivalry? The TCU game in a few weeks will be sold out, and we are terrible. The TCU basketball game at Moody in November will be sold out, and they are terrible. That's a rivalry because of the history and similarity of the schools.

It's your team's posting board. I said initially I'm using you "in generalities". The general attitude on that board is what fuels a lot of the ill will held by some here.

Monkeypox · August 29, 2016

1 minute ago, untjim1995 said:

Rivalries are funny--as a matter of fact, we have seen how the bigger opponents look down on the other one---until they start beating them regularly.

Think about this: If you ask any UT fan who their biggest rival is, immediately it is OU. But Texas was A&M's fiercest rival and OU is OSU's fiercest rival. But to Tech, A&M was their biggest rival.

On this list, Baylor is TCU's biggest rival, but SMU loathes TCU, while UNT loathes SMU, and UTSA hates us.

The college football totem pole of existence isn't just about conference affiliation...

Well, most of those actually pre-date the modern conferences. But still, every rivalry on your list except for UNT-SMU has conference affiliation being a factor in it.... there are few that exist outside of that. So apparently, conference affiliation matters.

UT-OU Rivalry - Since 1900. Played 100+ times. Known as Red River Rivalry. Multiple trophies awarded. Started back when Oklahoma was known as Oklahoma Territory.

UT-A&M Rivalry - First meeting in 1894. Played every year from 1915-2011. The schools actually have lines about each other in their fight songs. 3rd longest rivalry in history. Bonfire, Hex, Wheaties box...

UT-Arkansas Rivalry - Played 78 times since 1894. Their 1969 meeting called the "Game of the Century" (you'll note there were more than one on this list).

Texas Tech-UT Rivalry - First played in 1928. Played annually since 1960. Played 65 times. Trophy known as Chancellor's Spurs.

OU-OSU Rivalry - First played in 1904. Played over 100 times. Known as Bedlam series and across multiple sports.

TCU-Baylor - First played in 1899. Called The Revivalry. Played 111 times. Series currently tied. History of closely contested games. Both schools formed in same city.

TCU-SMU - Played all but 6 years since 1915. Iron Skillet trophy. The New York Sun referred to their 1935 meeting for the Rose Bowl the "Game of the Century."

....................................................................

UNT-SMU "Rivalry" - Played 35 times since 1922, but only 6 times since 1990. No trophy awarded. Never in same conference. Nobody cares about either school.

And it's not just asking fans of those schools. It's asking people who are fans of other schools or uninvested. If you ask my mom, who knows nothing of college football, who OU's rival is, she'll tell you Texas. If you ask a casual college football fan, they'll tell you Texas or OSU. It is known.

With former SWC schools, you might get a variety of answers, but they'll just about all be SWC schools.

If you ask anybody at all, with the exception of a handful of people on this board, who UNT's rival is, they'll shrug. You ask here, you get an annual debate. Because we've been in 3 different conferences in our 20+ year history since moving back up, and we've only been competitive in a handful of seasons. Few meaningful games even in our own conferences, and none of the rivalries have been particularly regional or with big enough schools to move the needle.

We actually have a real chance of forming a long-standing rivalry with UTSA, much to the chagrin of many here, including myself. Hell, perhaps over the next 50 years or so, we might form one with SMU, too. But you need a long, consistent history. And two teams in the low rungs have a hard chance of forming a rivalry if there's nothing at stake. So for UNT-UTSA, they have to separate themselves from the rest. When you look at the history of these things, it's usually 1) the two biggest schools in the state and/or 2) competing against each other in a conference. Well, we're not one of the two biggest schools in the state, and, even if we were, we weren't at the time to establish ourselves a state "representative" in that way. And we've never been in a conference with SMU or competed for anything meaningful with them.

That's really what's happened with TCU-Baylor. Their rivalry wasn't as strong TCU-SMU or even TCU-Rice back in the SWC days for whatever reason. Both of them being contenders ramped it up in recent years.

Ben Gooding · August 29, 2016

2 hours ago, MJavierSMU said:

I never mentioned the national championship. You did. I never mentioned football blue bloods. You did. Our attendance in football is terrible unless we're playing a former SWC rival, there is no denying that. As for cooking up attendance numbers, it is the same practice at every school - UNT, TCU, Baylor, Texas St, Rice or name any other school. They count tickets sold. I went to a UNT basketball game last season and there might have been 500 people in the place but the announced attendance was around 3,000. Y'all act like SMU is the only one who does this. The cheating thing has been beat to death but again, everyone was doing it, SMU just got caught. We deserved what we got but so did UT, A&M, TCU.......

SMU and UNT are at the same level of success right now but we are not the same program. We are coming from vastly different places. History does count for something. The value or meaning of that history is debatable. SMU and Rice is a better comparison as being the SAME program. Based on the comments on this board most of the hate of SMU has nothing to do with athletic competition. It seems to have more to do with the broad brush you paint anyone associated with SMU. That alone doesn't make a rivalry. Has one of our games (football or basketball) ever sold out? Two schools located an hour apart and a game has never sold out? That's a rivalry? The TCU game in a few weeks will be sold out, and we are terrible. The TCU basketball game at Moody in November will be sold out, and they are terrible. That's a rivalry because of the history and similarity of the schools.

Omg...he is delusional. It will be sold out at Ford when you guys take on TCU, yes. Just know, 75-85% will be in purple. That is not something to brag about, which you're inadvertently kind of doing. Apogee would sellout in 2016 if TCU came to Denton and UNT and TCU have minimal history. The difference would only be there wouldn't be 85% purple in the stands.

And your history, it's a cheating one. More irrelevance.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Ben Gooding

UNTLifer · August 29, 2016

MJavierSMU, you seem like a pretty good guy and reasonable in your points. Historically, you are as rare as the mythical chupacabra, so pardon some of us for our dislike.

UNT90 · August 30, 2016

3 hours ago, Monkeypox said:

Well, most of those actually pre-date the modern conferences. But still, every rivalry on your list except for UNT-SMU has conference affiliation being a factor in it.... there are few that exist outside of that. So apparently, conference affiliation matters.

UT-OU Rivalry - Since 1900. Played 100+ times. Known as Red River Rivalry. Multiple trophies awarded. Started back when Oklahoma was known as Oklahoma Territory.

UT-A&M Rivalry - First meeting in 1894. Played every year from 1915-2011. The schools actually have lines about each other in their fight songs. 3rd longest rivalry in history. Bonfire, Hex, Wheaties box...

UT-Arkansas Rivalry - Played 78 times since 1894. Their 1969 meeting called the "Game of the Century" (you'll note there were more than one on this list).

Texas Tech-UT Rivalry - First played in 1928. Played annually since 1960. Played 65 times. Trophy known as Chancellor's Spurs.

OU-OSU Rivalry - First played in 1904. Played over 100 times. Known as Bedlam series and across multiple sports.

TCU-Baylor - First played in 1899. Called The Revivalry. Played 111 times. Series currently tied. History of closely contested games. Both schools formed in same city.

TCU-SMU - Played all but 6 years since 1915. Iron Skillet trophy. The New York Sun referred to their 1935 meeting for the Rose Bowl the "Game of the Century."

....................................................................

UNT-SMU "Rivalry" - Played 35 times since 1922, but only 6 times since 1990. No trophy awarded. Never in same conference. Nobody cares about either school.

And it's not just asking fans of those schools. It's asking people who are fans of other schools or uninvested. If you ask my mom, who knows nothing of college football, who OU's rival is, she'll tell you Texas. If you ask a casual college football fan, they'll tell you Texas or OSU. It is known.

With former SWC schools, you might get a variety of answers, but they'll just about all be SWC schools.

If you ask anybody at all, with the exception of a handful of people on this board, who UNT's rival is, they'll shrug. You ask here, you get an annual debate. Because we've been in 3 different conferences in our 20+ year history since moving back up, and we've only been competitive in a handful of seasons. Few meaningful games even in our own conferences, and none of the rivalries have been particularly regional or with big enough schools to move the needle.

We actually have a real chance of forming a long-standing rivalry with UTSA, much to the chagrin of many here, including myself. Hell, perhaps over the next 50 years or so, we might form one with SMU, too. But you need a long, consistent history. And two teams in the low rungs have a hard chance of forming a rivalry if there's nothing at stake. So for UNT-UTSA, they have to separate themselves from the rest. When you look at the history of these things, it's usually 1) the two biggest schools in the state and/or 2) competing against each other in a conference. Well, we're not one of the two biggest schools in the state, and, even if we were, we weren't at the time to establish ourselves a state "representative" in that way. And we've never been in a conference with SMU or competed for anything meaningful with them.

That's really what's happened with TCU-Baylor. Their rivalry wasn't as strong TCU-SMU or even TCU-Rice back in the SWC days for whatever reason. Both of them being contenders ramped it up in recent years.

Excellent post.

MJavierSMU · August 30, 2016

3 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

MJavierSMU, you seem like a pretty good guy and reasonable in your points. Historically, you are as rare as the mythical chupacabra, so pardon some of us for our dislike.

No worries. We're not all bad. It's no differebt than some of the fools on ponyfans. lol l'm looking forward to a good game Saturday.

bloodstunt · August 30, 2016

4 hours ago, Matt from A700 said:

UNT/SMU are rivals. It's a lopsided rivalry, but a rivalry nonetheless. Hopefully this series continues until at least 2025 and UNT can improve on that 15% winning percentage.

All time it is lopsided, since 1989 it has been a pretty even back and forth thing.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 30, 2016

Our rivals, according to number of games played, were: SW Texas State (39), SMU (35), and New Mexico State (33).

Edited August 30, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 30, 2016

Sadly, that's as close to "rivalry" as we have today. Back in the MVC days, Tulsa and Wichita State made for some good rivals. Looking back that far, its hard these days to believe we got the best of Louisville and Cincinnati.

The really, really dumb decisions made by the powers that be during the mid-70s to the voluntary drop down to I-AA killed the program's reputation as a steady winner and pretty good stable of NFL talent.

Combine those stupid decisions with the powers that be being asleep at the wheel in the 90s when the facilities and television rights arms races were heating up and you get...us, now, way behind.

Edited August 30, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

Cerebus · August 30, 2016

1 minute ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

The really, really dumb decisions made by the powers that be during the mid-70s to the voluntary drop down to I-AA killed the program's reputation as a steady winner and pretty good stable of NFL talent.

In the mid-70s Hayden Fry was the head coach and we where either in the MVC or Indy at the 1A level. First year at 1AA was 1983.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 30, 2016

We went independent after the '73 or '74 season. Old timers older than me will have to correct me, but if I recall, I think the thinking at the time was if we were indepedent, we'd have a better shot at getting into the SWC.

Fry had some excellent teams. People talk about the win over Tennessee, but two weeks before that, they shut out a Bill Yeoman-coached Houston squad.

Anyway, it pretty much came down to us and Houston, both former MVC schools who were, at the time, independents. Houston was chosen in 1976. We stayed indepedent, then dropped down in 1983.

The OU/Georgia v. NCAA television rights case was decided the year after that in 1984. From that point on, colleges and conferences began negotiating their own television rights.

In the early 90s, the first real phase of massive facility upgrades began at bigger schools with the introduction of the "Jumbotrons" and video scoreboards. Then heated up into suites and seating expansions.

All the while, we feastered in the Southland Conference, bring mostly competitive until we hired a high school football coach following the 1990 season.

Just an all around disaster created over roughly a 25 year time period. So, that by the time the 21st Century rolled around, we were in a stadium that was the rough equivalent of high school grade, and toiling away in a conference whose main players were in the Mountain Time Zone: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/big-west/2000.html

Terrible.

Edited August 30, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

untjim1995 · August 30, 2016

3 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

In the mid-70s Hayden Fry was the head coach and we where either in the MVC or Indy at the 1A level. First year at 1AA was 1983.

I think he believes that going independent from the MVC wasn't a good move. IN hindsight, it wasn't, as Hayden put all his chips into getting us into the SWC. Once that didn't happen, he left, the university basically gave up on supporting football, and we got what we got--until Norval Pohl showed up.

Our place in the current college football world isn't bad at all--we finally have Texas rivals in a conference, as well as two other recognizable names in La Tech and USM as division mates. But we are probably forever blocked behind SMU in the college football hierarchy because of their history, money, and location--for whatever reason(s), the conferences above us always look at SMU as delivering the DFW market over us, but they know that SMU's name is well known and their cheating gives them notoriety, which brings media coverage.

Nationally, people still call us North Texas State, while even regionally, some people still think we aren't even FBS (see the Aledo HS recruit who had no idea we were even FBS). It would take winning at a level we never have to get us above SMU--unfortunately, their money will still always talk, as will their location.

4 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We went independent after the '73 or '74 season. Old timers older than me will have to correct me, but if I recall, I think the thinking at the time was if we were indepedent, we'd have a better shot at getting into the SWC.

Fry had some excellent teams. People talk about the win over Tennessee, but two weeks before that, they shut out a Bill Yeoman-coached Houston squad.

Anyway, it pretty much came down to us and Houston, both former MVC schools who were, at the time, independents. Houston was chosen in 1976. We stayed indepedent, then dropped down in 1983.

The OU/Georgia v. NCAA television rights case was decided the year after that in 1984. From that point on, colleges and conferences began negotiating their own television rights.

In the early 90s, the first real phase of massive facility upgrades began at bigger schools with the introduction of the "Jumbotrons" and video scoreboards. Then heated up into suites and seating expansions.

All the while, we feastered in the Southland Conference, bring mostly competitive until we hired a high school football coach following the 1990 season.

Just an all around disaster created over roughly a 25 year time period. So, that by the time the 21st Century rolled around, we were in a stadium that was the rough equivalent of high school grade, and toiling away in a conference whose main players were in the Mountain Time Zone: http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/conferences/big-west/2000.html

Terrible.

It was basically the Agent Orange being dropped on the program. It didn't kill it, but it might as well have. Even with the progress that we have seen, it was 25 years later than it should have been. And the patient, while looking healthy, still has the side effects of being around that Agent Orange for too long. The apathy, loss of alumni support, and lack of connection with the local residents in Denton are all less today than ever before---but that means we get 15-20k at games instead of 5-10k as we did 20 years ago,

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 30, 2016

I think the thing with SMU isn't so much the money, but that, unlike Houston and Texas Tech, they were long time members of the SWC, pre-dating the 1920.

And, during those years, they had some early success with the championships in the 30s and Kyle Rote, etc. In elementary school in the 70s, we had those paper book covers that had a picture of Kyle Rote on them still that they handed out to cover our books at school.

However, during those same years, when we were elementary-aged kids in the 70s, everyone knew about North Texas State grad Mean Joe Green, leading the Steel Curtain Defense, whose front line was made up of Green from North Texas State, Ernie Holmes from Texas Southern, Dwight "Mad Dog" White from East Teas State, and L.C. Greenwood from Arkansas-Pine Bluff.

So, North Texas State got a ton of press time in the 70s and on into the 80s with J.T. Smith being one of the best return men in the NFL and the likes of Cedric Hardeman hleping the Oakland Raiders to a Super Bowl win.

It faded, though. But, because the glory years were pretty much all with the NTSU, you still get the North Texas State thing. Unlike many folks, I'm not ashamed to hear it. Those were good football years that I'd gladly have return to Denton these days.

I'd like to see us wear NTSU's Worm, too, on the helmets for special games - those against old MVC rivals like Tulsa or old regional rivals like SMU.

Edited August 30, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

untjim1995 · August 30, 2016

The rivalry thing just doesn't really bother me that we don't have one that is a big deal yet. I expect that the UTSA thing will turn into one, though. Texas State would be a very smart one to start up again, as well.

People around here are going to lose their $hit when SMU buys out this series. It is going to really, really bother them. But SMU only plays us when they need us. After the Death Penalty, we signed a 2 for 1 with them. In the mid 00's, when Phil Bennett was trying to get them bowl-eligible to save his job, they scheduled us. And when they are needing wins and a decent attendance to replace A&M and Tech not coming here anymore, they just call us. When they don't need this, they won't play us. They were nowhere to be found on our schedule from 1995-2004, when we moved back up to I-A and they fell backwards and we moved forward. It wasn't until we fell backwards that Bennett got us scheduled.