MGB: Saturday scrimmage notes

UNTLifer · August 22, 2016

8 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Also, as to the Doug Flutie references...as noted several times before:

The average weight for an NFL defensive tackle in 1981, the year Flutie was a freshman at Boston College, was 268 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=493). That was NFL. College was lighter.

Do you like charts? Here's one with a chart: http://regressing.deadspin.com/chart-the-average-weight-of-nfl-rookies-by-position-a-1490494148

It think it goes without saying that it isn't 1981 anymore.

Also, even back then, Flutie was the exception, not the rule. I don't have the names of the thousands of other quarterbacks who were a Flutie-like 5'9" and never played a snap past high school. Sorry.

Just because Doug Flutie did it 35 years ago when d-linemen weighed, on average, 40 pounds less than they do now, doesn't mean every sub-6' guy isn't going to make it. Most, if they do play even a bit, will get banged up, like our old pal Riley Dodge. After the injuries here and a transfer down to FCS level, one concussion at McNeese State was his last hurrah.

It's not that Fine wasn't a "great athlete", "speedy", "quick", or however you want to phrase it this week. He was great against tiny Oklahoma schools like Jay, Adair, Inola, etc. and other schools that are a ball hair away from moving down to the Oklahoma 8-man level of football play.

My hope is that he is switched to receiver and can give us a fellow short in stature, small high school Oklahoman Wes Welker-like target.

Have you seen Fine play in person?

How about Russell Wilson, Greg Ward Jr., Drew Brees, Colt McCoy, Case Keenum, Vernon Adams Jr., Johnny Manziel, etc...

Mean_Green09 · August 22, 2016

I dont think is a great athlete or a scrambling QB.

I think he is pocket passing QB first.

I havent seen him have balls batted down.

I dont think he is a program savior, but he is a FBS level QB that can win and perform well in this system.

greenminer · August 22, 2016

MGMBX/TFLF hasn't attended a practice. He's happy to tell you that coaches have seen everything that needs to be seen.

Morris was further down on the depth chart at Alabama, correct? Based on that, we don't have any evidence among any of our QBs how they will do with the FT job; not just Fine or Shanbour.

GTWT · August 22, 2016

7 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

He wouldn't have received that extra year of eligibility because he was injured and used his redshirt in 2010.

I've been on record as saying the 2009 burning of Thompson's redshirt was a good decision by Dodge because he was trying to win:

Dodge didn't know DT would be injured that next year. He choose to give up one year of a player's eligibility for part of a game. Bad choice.

MeanGreenTexan · August 22, 2016

4 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Dodge didn't know DT would be injured that next year. He choose to give up one year of a player's eligibility for part of a game. Bad choice.

He was trying to win the game. Good choice.

EDIT: I wish someone could get Mr. Thompson on the record about this, because it gets bantered about alot on here.

Edited August 22, 2016 by MeanGreenTexan

greenminer · August 23, 2016

2 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

EDIT: I wish someone could get Mr. Thompson on the record about this, because it gets bantered about alot on here.

BillySee58 · August 23, 2016

11 hours ago, Mean_Green09 said:

Im not disagreeing with you. I think Fine can play right now and win games as the QB.

I DONT think he can survive a full season as the QB. My main concern would be the OL protecting him.

I DO think he should be the backup QB and should see reps should Morris get hurt or we blow someone out.

I really dont care about RS him. If we get to a point in the season where we arent making a bowl game I'd like to see him start.

IMO in game experience out weighs the benefits of sitting a year.

Id feel more comfortable about our QB situation next year if Fine saw some time this year.

I never said I thought Fine could last a whole year. Although a small part of my point was that redshirting is not going to change the fact that he is an undersized QB.

southsideguy · August 23, 2016

how were the punt returners?

UNT90 · August 23, 2016

4 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

He was trying to win the game. Good choice.

EDIT: I wish someone could get Mr. Thompson on the record about this, because it gets bantered about alot on here.

Thompson is going to say what any competitor would say : "I wanted to play!"

But he was an 18 year old kid, and 18 year olds don't get to make that decision.

It was the last 2 drives of the last game of a dismal season with UNT down 9 and going nowhere.

Down 2 scores with 3 minutes left in the game and you burn a redshirt.

Stupid and selfish of Dodge.

What people don't remember is the poor roster management that led to the decision. Dodge took just 2 QBs with him to Jonesboro for that game. He left another QB in Denton (can't remember the kid's name). So when Riley (?? I think he started that game) went down, DT was the only QB on the sideline.

Worst. College. Coach. Ever.

greenminer · August 23, 2016

I just realized how much more entertaining UNT90 is when read in a Walter Sobchak voice.

14249094086406-anigif_enhanced-16976-140

UNT90 · August 23, 2016

10 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Yes, they are, just like at any other position as well. You only have 85 scholarships to give.

These coaches walked into an acute QB depth problem - there were no FBS-level QBs on campus when they arrived. Zero. None in the pipeline being developed, none from the current roster, and none committed.

Morris fell into their lap, giving them exactly one FBS-level QB.

They went out on a limb to sign Fine. Shanbour couldn't crack the three-deep at Oklahoma State and never was going to. They only reason he might do it here is low numbers at QB.

O'Hara couldn't win the starting job at FCS Western Illinois, then went JUCO for a year, had one FBS offer afterward: UNT

So, there is still an acute need for QBs to develop. Two or three in this class and the next should be enough to begin a good pipeline of future QBs. As it stands now, we don't have one.

You have no idea if Morris is an FBS level QB. He has thrown exactly 1 pass in live FBS action.

You lose credibility by making this statement. For all we know, Fine is a better QB right now than Morris. I'm not saying that is the case, but neither has proved one damn thing on a college football field.

Any QB recruit with talent will be signed. Reaching for an undersized Fine and giving him his only FBS offer shows that. That won't stop for the next 3 years, no matter if Fine becomes a 1st team CUSA QB this year.

The one thing you got right is that there were zero FBS QBs on this roster when Littrell took over. Any talented QB recruit will be welcomed with open arms.

FirefightnRick · August 23, 2016

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

What people don't remember is the poor roster management that led to the decision. Dodge took just 2 QBs with him to Jonesboro for that game. He left another QB in Denton (can't remember the kid's name). So when Riley (?? I think he started that game) went down, DT was the only QB on the sideline.

Riley started and broke his arm in the first quarter.

Nathan Tune took over and broke or dislocated something at the end of the 4th quarter.

James Hamilton was our emergency back up (cause he was a QB in high school) but was never used.

Chase Bain made the trip but had mono or something and didn't dress out and was standing on the sideline.

Which left DT, who finished 3-3 for 60 yards and a TD.

Not sure what his thoughts were about Dodge burning the redshirt but his parents were not happy...............at all.

Rick

MeanGreenHoops · August 23, 2016

I'm with @MEANGREENCOACH2 & @Mean_Green09 and I watched about 2 hours of Saturday. At this point Fine looks like the best best to play if we need a 2nd string guy. And both of the top 2 look better than anything we had last year. Hopefully we only play FIne to get him some experience not out of need.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 23, 2016

12 hours ago, UNT90 said:

You have no idea if Morris is an FBS level QB. He has thrown exactly 1 pass in live FBS action.

You lose credibility by making this statement. For all we know, Fine is a better QB right now than Morris. I'm not saying that is the case, but neither has proved one damn thing on a college football field.

Any QB recruit with talent will be signed. Reaching for an undersized Fine and giving him his only FBS offer shows that. That won't stop for the next 3 years, no matter if Fine becomes a 1st team CUSA QB this year.

The one thing you got right is that there were zero FBS QBs on this roster when Littrell took over. Any talented QB recruit will be welcomed with open arms.

Yeah...I have an idea.

I understand fully that you expect to go 0-12 or 1-11. You underestimate these coaches on both sides of the ball and Morris in general. He's not some horse's rump transferring around, bouncing from school to school every time he wasn't handed the starting job...

...and, yes, I do think Brock Berglund, Dajon Williams, and Damarcus Smith all shared the attitude that they should have been handed the starting job.

Further, you highly overestimate the C-USA. You bitch about a schedule that gives us three very winnable out of conference games.

In short, I understand that you'll be pessimistic about UNT football, believing (incorrectly) that there are years and years worth of damage to the program, as though we are Kansas trying to claw our way to the top of the Big 12. You, and everyone else who believes that, are simply wrong.

As to Fine and his type of QB, we will not have to be going out on a limb for players like him very often after this season, which is your fear. I don't share your fear about that. I think the coaching staff honestly needed warm bodies in here this year and he was a guy who was out there>

(Yes, as big as Texas is - with it's plethora of prep quarterbacks graduating every year - this coaching staff went out a picking off a small school Oklahoma prep from the DII school or FCS or whomever it was looking at him. Think about that sports fans.)

Everyone who is honest about the talent level at QB knows we need 4-6 guys in here over the next two year who are bona fide QBs. Not Little Engines That Could, not coaches' sons, not guys who throw for just a little over a 1,000 yards in high school, not baseball prospects, not guys who couldn't hack it at the FCS level, not guys who have transferred around three times.

No more of this, "Well I've f*cked around for two or three years sitting on the bench here and there, I'll go to UNT because their football program is crappy enough for me to walk in and not even study the playbook. They NEED me!" quarterbacks. We don't need that type and never did; but, we kept getting it. A bunch of half-asses who thought their very presence on campus would be enough to win the starting job.

This coaching staff will end all of the quarterback bullshit we've been given by Todd Dodge and Dan McCarney. Yes, one - ONE - of Dodge's shots in the dark finally worked out his senior year, Derek Thompson. I'm happy about that. Hooray!

But, what I - and, everyone here - really wants is a guy who can give us Derek Thompson Senior Year or better for two or three - or, four! - seasons. I think these set of coaches are better able to deliver that than Dodge, McCarney, and even though I defend him about most things, Darrell Dickey.

If Fine is as "athletic" as everyone says he is, then he'll be an excellent addition to the receiving corp. Stick him at the Y slot and make strong safeties and nickels have to deal with his speed and agility. As mention yesterday, I'm sure he can become our Wes Welker - an Oklahoma small school kid that almost everyone overlooked who can catch and run and return punts and kicks.

It's actually the best thing the kid could do if he has any flicker of NFL aspirations as well.

I give you my word!

UNT90 · August 23, 2016

42 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Yeah...I have an idea.

I understand fully that you expect to go 0-12 or 1-11. You underestimate these coaches on both sides of the ball and Morris in general. He's not some horse's rump transferring around, bouncing from school to school every time he wasn't handed the starting job...

...and, yes, I do think Brock Berglund, Dajon Williams, and Damarcus Smith all shared the attitude that they should have been handed the starting job.

Further, you highly overestimate the C-USA. You bitch about a schedule that gives us three very winnable out of conference games.

In short, I understand that you'll be pessimistic about UNT football, believing (incorrectly) that there are years and years worth of damage to the program, as though we are Kansas trying to claw our way to the top of the Big 12. You, and everyone else who believes that, are simply wrong.

As to Fine and his type of QB, we will not have to be going out on a limb for players like him very often after this season, which is your fear. I don't share your fear about that. I think the coaching staff honestly needed warm bodies in here this year and he was a guy who was out there>

(Yes, as big as Texas is - with it's plethora of prep quarterbacks graduating every year - this coaching staff went out a picking off a small school Oklahoma prep from the DII school or FCS or whomever it was looking at him. Think about that sports fans.)

Everyone who is honest about the talent level at QB knows we need 4-6 guys in here over the next two year who are bona fide QBs. Not Little Engines That Could, not coaches' sons, not guys who throw for just a little over a 1,000 yards in high school, not baseball prospects, not guys who couldn't hack it at the FCS level, not guys who have transferred around three times.

No more of this, "Well I've f*cked around for two or three years sitting on the bench here and there, I'll go to UNT because their football program is crappy enough for me to walk in and not even study the playbook. They NEED me!" quarterbacks. We don't need that type and never did; but, we kept getting it. A bunch of half-asses who thought their very presence on campus would be enough to win the starting job.

This coaching staff will end all of the quarterback bullshit we've been given by Todd Dodge and Dan McCarney. Yes, one - ONE - of Dodge's shots in the dark finally worked out his senior year, Derek Thompson. I'm happy about that. Hooray!

But, what I - and, everyone here - really wants is a guy who can give us Derek Thompson Senior Year or better for two or three - or, four! - seasons. I think these set of coaches are better able to deliver that than Dodge, McCarney, and even though I defend him about most things, Darrell Dickey.

If Fine is as "athletic" as everyone says he is, then he'll be an excellent addition to the receiving corp. Stick him at the Y slot and make strong safeties and nickels have to deal with his speed and agility. As mention yesterday, I'm sure he can become our Wes Welker - an Oklahoma small school kid that almost everyone overlooked who can catch and run and return punts and kicks.

It's actually the best thing the kid could do if he has any flicker of NFL aspirations as well.

I give you my word!

Contradicting yourself in the same post (see the bold) and quoting your other screen name is priceless.

But that's not the only way you contradict yourself. You say that this is a stud coaching staff that knows what they are doing, but then say they should move Fine to WR. Even though the staff believes him to be the best option at #2 THIS YEAR as a true freshman. And this from just reading half that novel.

No, I dont believe this will be a long rebound as I have boldly predicted a 7-5 record next year. I realistically understand that we have less than 70 players on scholarship (maybe @BillySee58 can update the hard number for us?) and that this team is paper thin on both lines. That is where football games are won and lost. Yes, it's going to be a struggle this year.

I know you don't want to believe this because, being the longtime RV defender that you are, you want to be able to come back at the end of the year and say "I told you it wasn't that bad." Well, it is that bad, but it won't take a competent coach and a real FBS AD long to fix it. Because they are competent professionals.

We will see. In the short term, I'm a realist. In the longterm, I'm more optimistic for this program than 99% of the posters on this board. If Wren Baker is what we think he is, this thing turns around, and turns around very quickly. Leadership comes from the top down.

MEANGREENCOACH2 · August 23, 2016

11 hours ago, dd992emo said:

I'll stop short of calling you an idiot, but just barely. Numbers like the weight of players before you were born mean little. If they were relevant, why not include O-linemen and LBs and safeties? 40 times would have some effect on those charts. Thousands of Flutie-like QBs never played past HS? Thousands of Tom Brady-like QBs never played past HS. UNT's QB situation will play out on the field, not on some internet board. I won't waste ink printing out your prediction because I would just end up wiping my ass with it.

I like this poster!!!!

MeanGreenTexan · August 23, 2016

14 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Thompson is going to say what any competitor would say : "I wanted to play!"

But he was an 18 year old kid, and 18 year olds don't get to make that decision.

It was the last 2 drives of the last game of a dismal season with UNT down 9 and going nowhere.

Down 2 scores with 3 minutes left in the game and you burn a redshirt.

Stupid and selfish of Dodge.

What people don't remember is the poor roster management that led to the decision. Dodge took just 2 QBs with him to Jonesboro for that game. He left another QB in Denton (can't remember the kid's name). So when Riley (?? I think he started that game) went down, DT was the only QB on the sideline.

Worst. College. Coach. Ever.

I agree if we were asking him during his playing days.

But DT would have almost 3 years post-graduation to reflect now. Surely he would know if it were a good decision or not. Oh well, I guess we'll never know.

Eagle-96 · August 23, 2016

2 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I agree if we were asking him during his playing days.

But DT would have almost 3 years post-graduation to reflect now. Surely he would know if it were a good decision or not. Oh well, I guess we'll never know.

I agree that you should play to win but Dodge REALLY screwed up on this one even though it turned out to be a moot point. Winning the last game of the season meant nothing. 2-10 vs 3-9 is basically the same thing. If we had been playing for a bowl berth or a conference championship then I am all for burning the shirt. This was not one of those situations. Dodge was playing for himself and not the good of the program. He should have run the wildcat out there and called it a day.

MeanGreenTexan · August 23, 2016

5 minutes ago, Eagle-96 said:

I agree that you should play to win but Dodge REALLY screwed up on this one even though it turned out to be a moot point. Winning the last game of the season meant nothing. 2-10 vs 3-9 is basically the same thing. If we had been playing for a bowl berth or a conference championship then I am all for burning the shirt. This was not one of those situations. Dodge was playing for himself and not the good of the program. He should have run the wildcat out there and called it a day.

This is just something that you and I will disagree on. I certainly hope every coach we bring in here tries to win every game. I don't care if it's for us going 13-0 or 1-11.
If there is a player on your bench that you believe will give you a chance to win the game, you play him. 1st game/last game/doesn't matter.

Mean Green 93-98 · August 23, 2016

27 minutes ago, MEANGREENCOACH2 said:

I like this poster!!!!

The "players before you were born" comment is obviously inaccurate and idiotic. Otherwise, a pretty solid response.

UNT90 · August 23, 2016

23 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

This is just something that you and I will disagree on. I certainly hope every coach we bring in here tries to win every game. I don't care if it's for us going 13-0 or 1-11.
If there is a player on your bench that you believe will give you a chance to win the game, you play him. 1st game/last game/doesn't matter.

Except the game was unwinable

40 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I agree if we were asking him during his playing days.

But DT would have almost 3 years post-graduation to reflect now. Surely he would know if it were a good decision or not. Oh well, I guess we'll never know.

But now he has the hindsight of the redshirt year being used the very next year. Hindsight is always 20/20, especially in this case.

Also, wouldn't he have been eligible for a medical redshirt in 2014? Or would the fact that he played 2 games the year he received his redshirt have eliminated that possibility?

GreenTexan13 · August 23, 2016

12 hours ago, dd992emo said:

I'll stop short of calling you an idiot, but just barely. Numbers like the weight of players before you were born mean little. If they were relevant, why not include O-linemen and LBs and safeties? 40 times would have some effect on those charts. Thousands of Flutie-like QBs never played past HS? Thousands of Tom Brady-like QBs never played past HS. UNT's QB situation will play out on the field, not on some internet board. I won't waste ink printing out your prediction because I would just end up wiping my ass with it.

This post had me laughing pretty hard. There is always one that disagrees with the masses. It looks like on this thread, Mailbox takes that title.

MeanGreenTexan · August 23, 2016

4 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Except the game was unwinable

Except the game was winable. DT came in down 10 with ~3min left & scored his touchdown with 1:25 remaining.
Onside kick, then go do it again. (I understand the odds of recovering an onside kick are terrible... especially back then with Knott).

I don't care what the odds are. Just try your hardest to win.

greenminer · August 23, 2016

Geez, some of y'all are rubbing some old wounds.

UNT90 · August 23, 2016

1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I agree if we were asking him during his playing days.

But DT would have almost 3 years post-graduation to reflect now. Surely he would know if it were a good decision or not. Oh well, I guess we'll never know.

But now he has the hindsight of the redshirt year being used the very next year. Hindsight is always 20/20, especially in this case.

Also, wouldn't he have been eligible for a medical redshirt in 2014? Or would the fact that he played 2 games the year he received his redshirt have eliminated that possibility?

UNT never had the ball with the chance to go ahead. They were down 2 scores every time the offense was on the field.

With less than 3 minutes to go. In the last game of an awful season.

A head coach should see the bigger picture, both for the program and the player. Problem was Dodge felt he had to win to save his job. The big picture didn't matter to him at that point.

Edited August 23, 2016 by UNT90