Another Big 12 Idea, From Oklahoma Writer

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 15, 2016

I think he goes a little Jonathan Swift, but beneath it all is the assumption that the Big 12 doesn't survive one way or the other http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/15/writer-expansion-big-12s-best-option-survive-merging-conference-like-sec-pac-12

Again, it is unlikely that all Big 12 schools survive. It's not a guarantee that once in, always in. Connecticut, Cincinnati, Temple, and South Florida once rode the BCS money gravy train, but now camp in the G5 ACC.

Neither the SEC nor the Pac-12 are ever going to be interested in Iowa State, Baylor, Kansas State, Texas Tech, TCU, etc.

The deals will be for Oklahoma and Texas, and possibly Kansas.

Oklahoma and Texas may let Houston and BYU pay rent to them until the current Big 12 TV contract expires. But, they too would be left out of any realignment once Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas hit greener pastures.

Edited August 15, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

MeanGreenTexan · August 15, 2016

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I think he goes a little Jonathan Swift, but beneath it all is the assumption that the Big 12 doesn't survive one way or the other http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/15/writer-expansion-big-12s-best-option-survive-merging-conference-like-sec-pac-12

Again, it is unlikely that all Big 12 schools survive. It's not a guarantee that once in, always in. Connecticut, Cincinnati, Temple, and South Florida once rode the BCS money gravy train, but now camp in the G5 ACC.

Neither the SEC nor the Pac-12 are ever going to be interested in Iowa State, Baylor, Kansas State, Texas Tech, TCU, etc.

The deals will be for Oklahoma and Texas, and possibly Kansas.

Oklahoma and Texas may let Houston and BYU pay rent to them until the current Big 12 TV contract expires. But, they too would be left out of any realignment once Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas hit greener pastures.

I thought the State of Oklahoma passed some sort of legislation that ties OU to OSU as far as athletic affiliations are concerned. Meaning, OU cannot go anywhere without little brother tagging along.

Wag Tag · August 15, 2016

16 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I think he goes a little Jonathan Swift, but beneath it all is the assumption that the Big 12 doesn't survive one way or the other http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-sports/collegesports/2016/08/15/writer-expansion-big-12s-best-option-survive-merging-conference-like-sec-pac-12

Again, it is unlikely that all Big 12 schools survive. It's not a guarantee that once in, always in. Connecticut, Cincinnati, Temple, and South Florida once rode the BCS money gravy train, but now camp in the G5 ACC.

Neither the SEC nor the Pac-12 are ever going to be interested in Iowa State, Baylor, Kansas State, Texas Tech, TCU, etc.

The deals will be for Oklahoma and Texas, and possibly Kansas.

Oklahoma and Texas may let Houston and BYU pay rent to them until the current Big 12 TV contract expires. But, they too would be left out of any realignment once Oklahoma, Texas, and Kansas hit greener pastures.

Great info and I agree 100%. Are they going to add some schools so the members get more money now, Knowing there re up will be cut and OU and Texas will be gone?

NorthTexan95 · August 15, 2016

The next big shake up could be in the early 2020's when the big boys leave the Big 12. Then you could have teams from the old Big 12, AAC, CUSA, and MW all recombining to form the best non-P5 conference.

Cerebus · August 15, 2016

12 minutes ago, NorthTexan95 said:

The next big shake up could be in the early 2020's when the big boys leave the Big 12. Then you could have teams from the old Big 12, AAC, CUSA, and MW all recombining to form the best non-P5 conference.

Yes. Exactly what I think is going to happen and what we need to be preparing for.

While I think the P5 is going to shrink some, and wants to seperate itself from the G5 as much as possible, they don't want to actually break themselves totally off from the G5. The G5 will continue to be allowed to call itself a part of the top division, as long as the P5 really gets all the money and prestige, because otherwise the P5 could face real lawsuits and/or political pressure.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 15, 2016

With the writing on the wall, here's something that puzzles me: why do the G5 schools keep playing by the same rules as the P5s?

For decades, the biggest/traditional schools and conferences have been twisting and reforming themselves, the rules, the NCAA, and the postseason to suit their needs. G5 schools have tried to keep up. Our first foray into it was the addition of more aluminum bleachers at Fouts in 1994.

The question now, though, should be, why keep doing it? Why do the G5s not just convene, make their own governing body opposite the NCAA and make their own rules? It has been obvious for decades that the NCAA is just a tool for the richer schools. It's like banging your head against the wall for G5s.

Cut away from the NCAA, make admission requirement whatever everyone can agree upon. Make your own postseason. Just cut the charade.

The response might be, "Well, if G5s do that, P5s will do whatever is necessary to keep competitive, anyway, so it's a waste of time." Is it? The P5s aren't lining up to help the G5s now. Who cares what they would do in response? Their inclination has never been to help the G5s...unless some legal threat is on the horizon.

So, just split now. Offer the NCAA champion the opportunity to play the champion of the new league. AFL did this back in the 60s. Although, they were a new league altogether. The G5s, at least, have some seasoning to know what has and hasn't worked in the past with the NCAA.

NorthTexan95 · August 15, 2016

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

With the writing on the wall, here's something that puzzles me: why do the G5 schools keep playing by the same rules as the P5s?

For decades, the biggest/traditional schools and conferences have been twisting and reforming themselves, the rules, the NCAA, and the postseason to suit their needs. G5 schools have tried to keep up. Our first foray into it was the addition of more aluminum bleachers at Fouts in 1994.

The question now, though, should be, why keep doing it? Why do the G5s not just convene, make their own governing body opposite the NCAA and make their own rules? It has been obvious for decades that the NCAA is just a tool for the richer schools. It's like banging your head against the wall for G5s.

Cut away from the NCAA, make admission requirement whatever everyone can agree upon. Make your own postseason. Just cut the charade.

The response might be, "Well, if G5s do that, P5s will do whatever is necessary to keep competitive, anyway, so it's a waste of time." Is it? The P5s aren't lining up to help the G5s now. Who cares what they would do in response? Their inclination has never been to help the G5s...unless some legal threat is on the horizon.

So, just split now. Offer the NCAA champion the opportunity to play the champion of the new league. AFL did this back in the 60s. Although, they were a new league altogether. The G5s, at least, have some seasoning to know what has and hasn't worked in the past with the NCAA.

We gotta keep up appearances unless you want to say good buy to bowl games, NCAA tournament, TV contracts. I don't believe these schools' boosters would allow this to happen unless the P5 got way out of line.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 15, 2016

1 hour ago, NorthTexan95 said:

We gotta keep up appearances unless you want to say good buy to bowl games, NCAA tournament, TV contracts. I don't believe these schools' boosters would allow this to happen unless the P5 got way out of line.

Would you really say goodbye to bowl games?

The P5 now has 64 schools in conferences, plus Notre Dame. Basic math tells you that only 32 or so are going to have winning/bowl records. So, that's only enough schools to fill 16 bowl games.

There are 43 bowl games scheduled this year. P5 would be able to fill without letting more school with losing records play in bowls than school with winning records.

As it is, the TV contracts aren't getting better for G5s anyway. None are going to get P5-type deals or even close, as we've already seen.

G5s need to do a better job of looking out for themselves.

southsideguy · August 16, 2016

i think he is right on what is going to happen. I guess Kansas basketball will carry the football program. maybe benford can carry us to the sun belt

Ben Gooding · August 16, 2016

I'm with @MeanGreenMailbox It's in the G5's best interest to break away and roll the dice. They have to use us as a filler in the NCAA tourney and bowl games, so that's not going away. But I'm tired of watching the G5 play by the rules of the P5, as so long most of us stay at arms length. F that. Reform and do what is in the best interest of the G5 universities and G5 programs. Make it a college football movement for the fans. Stir the pot, rattle the hornet nest, etc. Whatever we do, stop freaking complying to the financial 'bullies' that is the P5. ESPN isn't even compiling statistics to be compared to the P5. Statistical categories are now being marginalized into their own little thing and in break down charts shown on TV they are damn sure to inform people of it such as, "X player had the 5th best QBR in the 'P5'." F them. Move on, because better believe they have.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Ben Gooding

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 16, 2016

14 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

I'm with @MeanGreenMailbox It's in the G5's best interest to break away and roll the dice. They have to use us as a filler in the NCAA tourney and bowl games, so that's not going away. But I'm tired of watching the G5 play by the rules of the P5, as so long most of us stay at arms length. F that. Reform and do what is in the best interest of the G5 universities and G5 programs. Make it a college football movement for the fans. Stir the pot, rattle the hornet nest, etc. Whatever we do, stop freaking complying to the financial 'bullies' that is the P5. ESPN isn't even compiling statistics to be compared to the P5. Statistical categories are now being marginalized into their own little thing and in break down charts shown on TV they are damn sure to inform people of it such as, "X player had the 5th best QBR in the 'P5'." F them. Move on, because better believe they have.

In theory, they also have to use us for out of conference games. However, they could play hardball and only schedule themselves.

The point is, though, they are not giving us any breaks and just throw us a little money off the bottom for sitting close enough to catch table scraps.

They hate Boise State upsetting Oklahoma. They hate Appalachian State upsetting Michigan. They can see that "lower" schools can compete, but will never give us full access to do so regularly.

Boise State, you beat Oklahoma? That's nice. Here's a little slice of BCS money. Good luck going 13-0 every year and still having to squeeze into the equation - you and all schools similarly situated.

All of that work a school like Boise State does, and you have to be perfect to get even a little. Meanwhile, you've got Baylors and Indianas who went year after year sucking, but were given tens of millions of dollars just for being a chosen school.

It's sickening.

Think of all the funding and sacrifice by the Boise alumni. It happened for a while with Fresno State. They were winning and competing with the big boys. So, what happens? They have to be perfect to get a BCS invite, while four loss Big East schools were automatically given BCS bowl invitations and money.

Then, fearing loss, no one worth writing about would schedule home and homes with Fresno.

It's just sickening to have watched it all unfold.

Then, the P5 says, "We'll do now what we gave SMU the death penalty for - pay the players. Oh, you can, too, G5s. Good luck giving the players as much as we do out of your little budgets."

It's just stupid to keep following them.

I guess the tipping point for me is Raveon Hoston/William Johnson. They're not qualified academically NCAA-wise. Okay, screw it. It's obvious they either can't or won't do the work. But, they can play football. Can the kids be given a chance?

Get a new collegiate organization that will let guys like that just go to school for a year and workout with the team - without losing a year of eligibility. Are we for helping kids or not? Do we just let be kicked down constantly to DII, DIII, NAIA year after year?

WTF? Just split off the NCAA. The NCAA and P5 give barely a sh*t for the G5s other than to, as Ben Gooding rightly argues, using us for filler of bowls, basketball brackets, and out of conference home games.

Edited August 16, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

MeanGreenTexan · August 16, 2016

1 minute ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

In theory, they also have to use us for out of conference games. However, they could play hardball and only schedule themselves.

The point is, though, they are not giving us any breaks and just throw us a little money off the bottom for sitting close enough to catch table scraps.

They hate Boise State upsetting Oklahoma. They hate Appalachian State upsetting Michigan. They can see that "lower" schools can compete, but will never give us full access to do so regularly.

Boise State, you beat Oklahoma? That's nice. Here's a little slice of BCS money. Good luck going 13-0 every year and still having to squeeze into the equation - you and all schools similarly situated.

All of that work a school like Boise State does, and you have to be perfect to get even a little. Meanwhile, you've got Baylors and Indianas who went year after years sucking, but were given tens of millions of dollars just for being a chosen school.

It's sickening.

Think of all the funding and sacrifice by the Boise alumni. It happens for a while with Fresno State. They were winning and competing with the big boys. So, what happens? They have to be perfect to get a BCS invite, while four loss Big East schools were automatically given BCS bowl invitation and money.

Then, fearing loss, no one worth writing about would schedule home and homes with Fresno.

It's just sickening to have watched it all unfold.

Then, the P5 says, "We'll to now what we gave SMU the death penalty for - pay the players. Oh, you can, too, G5s. Good luck giving the players as much as we do out of your little budgets."

It's just stupid to keep following them.

I guess the tipping point for me is Raveon Hoston/William Johnson. They're not qualified academically NCAA-wise. Okay, screw it. It's obvious they either can't or won't do the work. But, they can play football. Can the kids be given a chance?

Get a new collegiate organization that will let guys like that just go to school for a year and workout with the team - without losing a year of eligibility. Are we for helping kids or not? Do we just let be kicked down constantly to DII, DIII, NAIA.

WTF? Just split off the NCAA. The NCAA and P5 give barely a sh*t for the G5s other than to, as Ben Gooding rightly argues, using us for filler of bowls, basketball brackets, and out of conference home games.

If by "G5 separate from the P5", you mean create their own new governing body, then congratulations, you've basically created a new JUCO system for the NCAA-affiliated schools to pick & choose from since they will no longer be protected by the NCAA's transfer rules.
You have also put all FCS schools on your level because the NCAA will elevate them. And, since they're still under NCAA governance, they will not be able to be sacked by P5 schools... unlike your newly-created body. Within 2 years, you'll basically water-down the existing G5 schools to less than FCS quality.

Look further ahead and assume risks.

This idea would be catastrophic to all G5 schools. It's really not a good idea in the slightest.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 16, 2016

The FCS school would have to come up with lots of money to go up. As bad us you may think the G5s are, most FCS facilities are worse than G5s.

The NCAA schools would still abide by their rules because they'd be competing with each other. You think Tennessee wants to make things easier on Alabama in recruiting? Oklahoma for Texas? Michigan for Ohio State?

We're not competing for the same recruits now. And, we rarely, if ever, will. They aren't worried about that.

What I'm saying is, we could take on players like Raveon Hoston and William Johnson, already passed over the the NCAA.

Also, they are not going to reopen the floodgate of open rosters that gave schools like Oklahoma NFL-quality running backs sitting on the bench just because they could sign them and keep them away from the Teas A&M's of the world, who try to claw up. Barry Switzer has long acknowledged that the 85 scholarship limit knocked OU down a peg for a few years.

Look up Switzer's story about recruiting Kenny King. They camped out overnight in his little panhandle Texas town to keep him from talking to A&M. They already have three or four backs who were NFL bound on the roster. They just didn't want a school like A&M getting him because they knew he'd go there a start and help them win - and a winning A&M mean tougher recruiting in the future for him and OU.

You can fear what the NCAA will or will not do. But, they're not giving us much anyway. Neither are the network. That being the case, take control of it yourselves. We're (G5s) always waiting, waiting, waiting, following, following, following until we are pushed further down anyway.

MeanGreenTexan · August 16, 2016

12 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

The FCS school would have to come up with lots of money to go up. As bad us you may think the G5s are, most FCS facilities are worse than G5s.

The NCAA schools would still abide by their rules because they'd be competing with each other. You think Tennessee wants to make things easier on Alabama in recruiting? Oklahoma for Texas? Michigan for Ohio State?

We're not competing for the same recruits now. And, we rarely, if ever, will. They aren't worried about that.

What I'm saying is, we could take on players like Raveon Hoston and William Johnson, already passed over the the NCAA.

Also, they are not going to reopen the floodgate of open rosters that gave schools like Oklahoma NFL-quality running backs sitting on the bench just because they could sign them and keep them away from the Teas A&M's of the world, who try to claw up. Barry Switzer has long acknowledged that the 85 scholarship limit knocked OU down a peg for a few years.

Look up Switzer's story about recruiting Kenny King. They camped out overnight in his little panhandle Texas town to keep him from talking to A&M. They already have three or four backs who were NFL bound on the roster. They just didn't want a school like A&M getting him because they knew he'd go there a start and help them win - and a winning A&M mean tougher recruiting in the future for him and OU.

You can fear what the NCAA will or will not do. But, they're not giving us much anyway. Neither are the network. That being the case, take control of it yourselves. We're (G5s) always waiting, waiting, waiting, following, following, following until we are pushed further down anyway.

Granted, there isn't really a guy on the UNT roster right now that we could cite for this, but wouldn't you think that a guy like Xavier Woods would be coveted by several SEC teams right now?
If LATech is playing under a different league, why would the NCAA keep their teams from raiding that league's best players? As long as they have a spot open for them with their 85 scholarship limit, guys like Xavier Woods would play for LATech for 1, maybe 2 years, then transfer to a P5 school without having to sit out or anything.

And guys like Hoston & Johnson are academic risks that likely would not qualify for admittance to UNT otherwise. I would certainly hope this new league would have some sort of academic accountability.

southsideguy · August 16, 2016

i saw that Iowa and Iowa State will no longer play each other in football, the AD at Iowa State said that playing Northern Iowa was a better fit. Think they know they will be left behind when the Big 12 falls apart.

untjim1995 · August 16, 2016

You know, its ok to recognize that the powers that be are just too powerful. The NCAA, the Power 5 Conferences and Notre Dame, the national networks and media, and their incredibly powerful alumni that power the board rooms and legislative bodies in the states and in DC that the G5s and FCS don't have and will never have are just too much to defeat.

Yes, it sucks, but it also creates opportunity. The G5s can leverage this situation to actually win a national championship in football--not just get a top 10 ranking or a BCS bowl spot for winning all your games. Right now, we have no chance of ever winning a national championship. We serve one purpose to the P5s, as a bodybag opponent.

To me, I'd be glad to see the day where the G5s/FCS are on a different, non-competing level than the P5s. As times goes on, our level of play will not serve as an NFL and NBA minor league, but will be actual college kids playing each other. To me, unlike the I-aa debacle, where the king conference for football was in our backyard and we could actually play with and beat them, but basically gave up... Today, the landscape of college football is so overwhelmingly tilted in the big schools' favor for recruits and coaches and that won't change because of the money.

I still bet we would get very similar crowds and following if we are a winning program playing against fellow G5s and top-end FCS teams, and making deep runs in competing for a national championship. Hell, we drew 40k to a HoD Bowl game against a spare UNLV team because we were good.

And I totally expect that we are gonna get this chance. Because the Big XII's future demise is within 5-10 years of occurring, the final Power Conference schism will be complete. Now, I do bet the top end G5 schools will be given a choice on what they would like to do--continue playing the role of bought opponent, while receiving a bone for a bowl slot against a power champ that isn't in the playoff. I can see a lot of MWC and AAC schools choosing this route, too. But I also see a lot of them not following that delusion and gladly falling back into the G5/FCS level of play that allows for more competition and less money.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 16, 2016

3 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

You know, its ok to recognize that the powers that be are just too powerful. The NCAA, the Power 5 Conferences and Notre Dame, the national networks and media, and their incredibly powerful alumni that power the board rooms and legislative bodies in the states and in DC that the G5s and FCS don't have and will never have are just too much to defeat.

Yes, it sucks, but it also creates opportunity. The G5s can leverage this situation to actually win a national championship in football--not just get a top 10 ranking or a BCS bowl spot for winning all your games. Right now, we have no chance of ever winning a national championship. We serve one purpose to the P5s, as a bodybag opponent.

To me, I'd be glad to see the day where the G5s/FCS are on a different, non-competing level than the P5s. As times goes on, our level of play will not serve as an NFL and NBA minor league, but will be actual college kids playing each other. To me, unlike the I-aa debacle, where the king conference for football was in our backyard and we could actually play with and beat them, but basically gave up... Today, the landscape of college football is so overwhelmingly tilted in the big schools' favor for recruits and coaches and that won't change because of the money.

I still bet we would get very similar crowds and following if we are a winning program playing against fellow G5s and top-end FCS teams, and making deep runs in competing for a national championship. Hell, we drew 40k to a HoD Bowl game against a spare UNLV team because we were good.

And I totally expect that we are gonna get this chance. Because the Big XII's future demise is within 5-10 years of occurring, the final Power Conference schism will be complete. Now, I do bet the top end G5 schools will be given a choice on what they would like to do--continue playing the role of bought opponent, while receiving a bone for a bowl slot against a power champ that isn't in the playoff. I can see a lot of MWC and AAC schools choosing this route, too. But I also see a lot of them not following that delusion and gladly falling back into the G5/FCS level of play that allows for more competition and less money.

FCS schools will have to pour alot of money into facilities. You look at what we put in, and it's even more now. And, we have just a 30k seat place.

How many FCS schools can really come up with that kind of money?

ACU is currently building a stadium on their campus. I think the cost of it was $30 million, and it will seat under 20k. So...I mean, how realistic is it that FCS schools are globbed together with G5s?