UNT to the Big12...

Aquila_Viridis · August 16, 2016

I live up here in the SE part of stAte territory which they share with Old Miss, Memphis and even a lot of MS State and of course Alabama. We have the Hog fans and Tennessee too but they are much further away. stAte has a lot more visible support here than they used to. There are plenty of schools in off the beaten path places that have tremendous support because there is not much else going on in the area. So that is not really holding them back.

Mean Green 93-98 · August 16, 2016

1 hour ago, TreeFiddy said:

Seems to be working ok for the AAC based on their last TV deal.

The thing is, the AAC didn't choose their members based primarily on market. They pretty much took the best out of C-USA. East Carolina and Tulsa were their most recent adds, and they are small markets. They certainly considered markets, but they didn't obsess about it like Banowsky.

TreeFiddy · August 16, 2016

4 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

The thing is, the AAC didn't choose their members based primarily on market. They pretty much took the best out of C-USA. East Carolina and Tulsa were their most recent adds, and they are small markets. They certainly considered markets, but they didn't obsess about it like Banowsky.

I guess you can argue their reasons, but SMU, Houston, Temple, UConn, Memphis, UCF, USF, Tulsa, Tulane, etc... are all in what are considered large markets. The AAC has a couple of exceptions. So does CUSA.

The difference is that the CUSA large universities in large markets do not have as successful histories as the AAC counterparts. Give some of the CUSA teams some time and they will also develop their followings just like the large AAC teams. Just like the AAC, CUSA also has some smaller schools that have had some success, but the ceilings for those schools in terms of popularity/following seems lower than the large schools.

The AAC is riding the popularity of several of their larger schools in order to bring notoriety to the conference and thus TV dollars.

Mean Green 93-98 · August 16, 2016

1 minute ago, TreeFiddy said:

I guess you can argue their reasons, but SMU, Houston, Temple, UConn, Memphis, UCF, USF, Tulsa, Tulane, etc... are all in what are considered large markets. The AAC has a couple of exceptions. So does CUSA.

The difference is that the CUSA large universities in large markets do not have as successful histories as the AAC counterparts. Give some of the CUSA teams some time and they will also develop their followings just like the large AAC teams. Just like the AAC, CUSA also has some smaller schools that have had some success, but the ceilings for those schools in terms of popularity/following seems lower than the large schools.

The AAC is riding the popularity of several of their larger schools in order to bring notoriety to the conference and thus TV dollars.

Just FYI, here's the TV markets ranking: http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets. Once you get past the top 40, you're not really talking about large markets anymore (remember, Milwaukee and Pittsburgh are considered "small market" MLB teams). But yes, I was talking about reasons for selections. The AAC passed up on FIU and the #16 market in the nation, but selected Tulsa and the #61 market.

But your comment about schools with successful histories hit on exactly what I was saying. The AAC selected teams with successful histories, and recent success (probably why East Carolina was selected, but Southern Miss left to rot).

As far as building followings, we'll see. I think you're right about lower ceilings with most of the C-USA schools.

Arkstfan · August 16, 2016

Let's look at the Big East/AAC invites

Round One

Temple. Available immediately in football and a top hoops program. #4 TV

Round Two

Houston three CUSA division or league titles and two top 25's in CUSA. Not to mention SWC titles and rankings and five Final Fours pre-CUSA #10 TV

UCF three CUSA or division titles before invite and a top 25 #11 TV

SMU two divisional titles in CUSA #5 TV

Round Three

Memphis three Final Fours five bowl appearances in CUSA #50 TV

Round Four

Boise State nuff said (small market) #107

SDSU taken to balance Boise State travel after being turned down by other MWC schools including BYU, Colorado State, Air Force and UNLV. #28

Round Five

ECU two CUSA titles and one ranking while in CUSA #99

Tulane taken primarily to appease the private school members of Big East #51 TV

Round Six

Navy seriously it's Navy.

Round Seven

Tulsa Five CUSA divisional titles and two championships. Plus a well regarded hoops program #60 (Little Rock is #57 for comparison)

Seriously does anyone who bleats out the word markets even understand how the finances of TV works????

Long ago when we didn't have real time data when programs were sent out syndicated (think Raycom) they would assume the viewership based on national data for the type of audience and extrapolate the data using market size. That is long long past.

There are three ways money is made on TV now.

1. Ad rates based on ratings. The network (or station) sets a rate and guarantees a minimum audience if the rating is below that, they have to rebate part of the ad charge.

2. Carriage fees. Networks get money per subscriber who can receive the channel. A network will pay more for content that would cause a subscriber to change TV providers. With conference networks they charge a two tier structure. One fee for subscribers in a state with a conference team and a lower rate in other states.

3. Subscription fees. Not to be confused with carriage fees. The consumer elects to pay the fee in order to receive the channel.

Rating data is no longer guesses about viewership.extrapolated from market size. You either subscribe to Nielsen's metering serivce (supplemented by diaries) or you subscribe to a service that collects data from your cable or satellite box to see what channel is being viewed.

Go to a major ad agency and tell them your program will be seen in the four largest markets and they should pay fat bucks and you will be laughed out of the room. They spend based on how many will see it and the demographics of who those viewers are.

Anyone citing markets simply is ignorant of how networks price their advertising and how decisions are made to buy that advertising. A top college game will draw basically the same audience in the Birmingham market as the New York market. Birmingham has 686,000 TV homes and New York more than 7 million. Little Rock will pull in around the same audience for college football as Denver and Denver is 3X larger.

Shout markets if it makes you feel smart but that's not how TV works and hasn't in a long time. Drawing 200,000 college football viewers with most in LA is worth the same as 200,000 viewers with most in Columbus, Ohio.

TreeFiddy · August 16, 2016

22 minutes ago, Arkstfan said:

Let's look at the Big East/AAC invites

Round One

Temple. Available immediately in football and a top hoops program. #4 TV

Round Two

Houston three CUSA division or league titles and two top 25's in CUSA. Not to mention SWC titles and rankings and five Final Fours pre-CUSA #10 TV

UCF three CUSA or division titles before invite and a top 25 #11 TV

SMU two divisional titles in CUSA #5 TV

Round Three

Memphis three Final Fours five bowl appearances in CUSA #50 TV

Round Four

Boise State nuff said (small market) #107

SDSU taken to balance Boise State travel after being turned down by other MWC schools including BYU, Colorado State, Air Force and UNLV. #28

Round Five

ECU two CUSA titles and one ranking while in CUSA #99

Tulane taken primarily to appease the private school members of Big East #51 TV

Round Six

Navy seriously it's Navy.

Round Seven

Tulsa Five CUSA divisional titles and two championships. Plus a well regarded hoops program #60 (Little Rock is #57 for comparison)

Seriously does anyone who bleats out the word markets even understand how the finances of TV works????

Long ago when we didn't have real time data when programs were sent out syndicated (think Raycom) they would assume the viewership based on national data for the type of audience and extrapolate the data using market size. That is long long past.

There are three ways money is made on TV now.

1. Ad rates based on ratings. The network (or station) sets a rate and guarantees a minimum audience if the rating is below that, they have to rebate part of the ad charge.

2. Carriage fees. Networks get money per subscriber who can receive the channel. A network will pay more for content that would cause a subscriber to change TV providers. With conference networks they charge a two tier structure. One fee for subscribers in a state with a conference team and a lower rate in other states.

3. Subscription fees. Not to be confused with carriage fees. The consumer elects to pay the fee in order to receive the channel.

Rating data is no longer guesses about viewership.extrapolated from market size. You either subscribe to Nielsen's metering serivce (supplemented by diaries) or you subscribe to a service that collects data from your cable or satellite box to see what channel is being viewed.

Go to a major ad agency and tell them your program will be seen in the four largest markets and they should pay fat bucks and you will be laughed out of the room. They spend based on how many will see it and the demographics of who those viewers are.

Anyone citing markets simply is ignorant of how networks price their advertising and how decisions are made to buy that advertising. A top college game will draw basically the same audience in the Birmingham market as the New York market. Birmingham has 686,000 TV homes and New York more than 7 million. Little Rock will pull in around the same audience for college football as Denver and Denver is 3X larger.

Shout markets if it makes you feel smart but that's not how TV works and hasn't in a long time. Drawing 200,000 college football viewers with most in LA is worth the same as 200,000 viewers with most in Columbus, Ohio.

Not sure why each example you provided are so different from this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area, but it shows that the markets are a little larger/higher ranked than what you quoted. My only point was the AAC took some solid programs, but most of them also happened to be from large (maybe not largest, but still large) markets.

I am not sure why you are so obstinate claiming that everyone is shouting markets and markets only is the way to TV riches. I am not and most people that I have seen posting on GMG do not say that either. TV pays for ratings. If you don't have them, then as a team/conference you have to build them.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I guess as an Arkst fan I can understand the sensitivity to any discussion that deals with enrollment or location, but jeez.

Arkstfan · August 16, 2016

If you are discussing television and markets, Nielsen's TV markets would be the relevant market but seriously does it matter how many people live in a metro where a team is located? We are talking about college football. Fans drive hours to go to games when they care. Auburn, Alabama and Hattiesburg, MS metro areas are about the same size as Jonesboro's metro shame neither of them have any support or interest.

TreeFiddy · August 17, 2016

You have made the comment several times declaring that CUSA was following a large market strategy and that it is a failed strategy.

While CUSA did add some large schools from large metro areas they also added some schools from smaller markets with smaller enrollments (e.g Latech, WKU, etc...).

Not sure I would agree that CUSA has been following an exclusive large market strategy. Reality seems to be a little more in the middle somewhere.

Ryan Munthe · August 17, 2016

11 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

If you are discussing television and markets, Nielsen's TV markets would be the relevant market but seriously does it matter how many people live in a metro where a team is located? We are talking about college football. Fans drive hours to go to games when they care. Auburn, Alabama and Hattiesburg, MS metro areas are about the same size as Jonesboro's metro shame neither of them have any support or interest.

I still haven't figured out why you're here.

Cerebus · August 17, 2016

9 minutes ago, Ryan Munthe said:

I still haven't figured out why you're here.

Cause he is in the know and a personal friend of the boards owner?

Ryan Munthe · August 17, 2016

9 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Cause he is in the know and a personal friend of the boards owner?

I'm sorry, I don't see why we're getting a lecture from a Fun Belt Arky State fan.

Cerebus · August 17, 2016

Just now, Ryan Munthe said:

I'm sorry, I don't see why we're getting a lecture from a Fun Belt Arky State fan.

10 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Cause he is in the know

Ben Gooding · August 17, 2016

Meh. Let him c'mon and dribble his jealousy of how Astate is great. We know what team's fan board he's hanging out on.

Ryan Munthe · August 17, 2016

4 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

All I've heard him do is pimp A-State. "In the know."

cdizzle86 · August 17, 2016

11 hours ago, Arkstfan said:

If you are discussing television and markets, Nielsen's TV markets would be the relevant market but seriously does it matter how many people live in a metro where a team is located? We are talking about college football. Fans drive hours to go to games when they care. Auburn, Alabama and Hattiesburg, MS metro areas are about the same size as Jonesboro's metro shame neither of them have any support or interest.

The problem is there is no accurate way to quantify potential without accounting for market size. Just like Fortune 500 companies, P5 conferences are focused on market cap & addressable audience, not some abstract reasoning.

I think the problem with the Big 12 is they pulled the trigger too quickly on WV. Now they're in a pickle and WV is out there in no mans land alone. Now they have to decide to stay central with BYU and Houston or commit to WV and add somebody like East Carolina and Memphis. Even the P5 conference are realizing that location is important.

GM1998 · August 20, 2016

On 8/15/2016 at 9:57 AM, Arkstfan said:

Maybe you ought to take a harder look.

AState has moved into the range of AAC in attendance. We now self-fund $15 million getting us in the ballpark as Houston.

Built a huge new press box with premium seating, new indoor practice facility, next up is a new field house with offices, new training room, new weight room, new meeting rooms, and even more premium seating.

Outpaced most of CUSA in season ticket sales. Outdrawing 75% of CUSA in football.

I visited Arkansas State last summer. They are taking themselves seriously. That is the first step. If you don't take yourself seriously no one else will...

GrandGreen · August 20, 2016

On 8/16/2016 at 10:25 PM, Ryan Munthe said:

All I've heard him do is pimp A-State. "In the know."

Actually, he is a very knowledgable fan of college athletics and his input is appreciated. Don't always agree with his view, but it is always well thought out and communicated. Sure, he is an ASU fan, nothing wrong with that. There are a lot of NT posters that I would rather take a break from the board.

Mean Green 93-98 · August 20, 2016

On 8/16/2016 at 9:53 PM, TreeFiddy said:

You have made the comment several times declaring that CUSA was following a large market strategy and that it is a failed strategy.

While CUSA did add some large schools from large metro areas they also added some schools from smaller markets with smaller enrollments (e.g Latech, WKU, etc...).

Not sure I would agree that CUSA has been following an exclusive large market strategy. Reality seems to be a little more in the middle somewhere.

LaTech is a decent example, but WKU is in the Nashville market and has an enrollment of over 20k.

UNT90 · August 20, 2016

On August 16, 2016 at 9:59 PM, Ryan Munthe said:

I still haven't figured out why you're here.

Because he is about 10 times smarter than you and provides good outside perspective?

Edited August 20, 2016 by UNT90

Ryan Munthe · August 20, 2016

43 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Because he is about 10 times smarter than you and provides good outside perspective?

Cute.

DallasGreen · August 20, 2016

On June 30, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Wag Tag said:

I have complete confidence that Prez Smak down will make the right decision. Fire Mc, hire Seth, fire RV, hire top AD search firm, hire independent consultants. Who was the last Prez that saw the importance of college athletics?

Norval Pohl

Ben Gooding · August 20, 2016

On 8/16/2016 at 10:25 PM, Ryan Munthe said:

All I've heard him do is pimp A-State. "In the know."

Not sure why this post has so many dislikes. He does in fact do a lot of pimping of University of Arkansas at Jonesboro.

Ryan Munthe · August 20, 2016

1 hour ago, Ben Gooding said:

Not sure why this post has so many dislikes. He does in fact do a lot of pimping of University of Arkansas at Jonesboro.

Because I could post "I LOVE THE MEAN GREEN" and still get massive downvotes. Lot of Internet warriors with nothing better else to do.

UNT90 · August 20, 2016

2 hours ago, Ryan Munthe said:

Because I could post "I LOVE THE MEAN GREEN" and still get massive downvotes. Lot of Internet warriors with nothing better else to do.

I mean, it couldn't be your internet personality, could it?