UNT Dallas Law School in danger of not getting accredited

[wardly]

If memory serves we tried at one time to buy TWU law school but they changed their mind about selling. Royce West is the reason we have a campus in South Dallas that is a money pit as well as a law school that is a joke.

[Arkstfan]

UALR Law had a many year streak of best bar pass rate in Arkansas but nearly lost accreditation when i was in school over the quality of the buildings. The old courthouse building was old and I learned how to operate a cage style elevator with a lever control rather than buttons.  The ABA is tough. I suspect UNT's biggest problem is spin. Applications are down nationally for law schools and schools are faced with the question of whether they uphold their traditional standards or go ahead and fill a class so they have sufficient tuition and fee revenue to pay the bills.

[FirefightnRick]

51 minutes ago, wardly said:

If memory serves we tried at one time to buy TWU law school but they changed their mind about selling. Royce West is the reason we have a campus in South Dallas that is a money pit as well as a law school that is a joke.

No.  We didn't want to pay the fraction of the price we've already wasted on UNT Law School for it.

 

Rick

 

 

[TreeFiddy]

10 hours ago, wardly said:

If memory serves we tried at one time to buy TWU law school but they changed their mind about selling. Royce West is the reason we have a campus in South Dallas that is a money pit as well as a law school that is a joke.

Pretty sure I remember someone posting some of the real numbers that were involved in what TWU was asking. The numbers ended up being a lot higher that the lowball number that tends to get thrown around. 

 

[GrayEagle]

14 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

They could easily still have 6-figures in debt even at UNT-Dallas law. $15,000 tuition alone + Cost of Living in a year x 3 years of school. It's adds up quick. All the debt to be placed in probably one of the worst job situations for law students in America, with no alumni job connections to begin with. 

There are undergrad UNT folks who are lawyers posting on this thread. Their suggestion, long ago, was: don't do it. 

The fact is it's already happened.  The question is what is the best way to fix it.  

The idea for a law school in Dallas did not originate with UNT; it originated in Austin.  With the building donated we had a leg up on any other university and we jumped on it.  The timing was terrible but if Austin and Dallas wanted it to happen it was the right thing to do.  I only wish that it had been put under the jurisdiction of the Denton campus although I don't know if the administration at that time was much better than that of the fragile Dallas college.  Now, I believe that President Smatresk could somehow make a go of it.

Cutting our losses now is likely not the best solution until we are convinced that it absolutely will not work.  UNT is a respected institution; it's not a seat of the pants for-profit storefront.  We need to talk to both the State and the ABA for time and help to fix the problem.  

Correlate this to our recent AD situation.  It was determined that football was worth improving so what happens?  We hire a new coach and athletic director and raise the funding.  Is the gamble worth it?  We don't know, but if attitude change is an indication, it's beginning to look as if it is.  Who on this board doesn't believe that it was the right thing to do?

There is a certain amount of prestige with a university having a law school.  The UNT School of Law was founded to fill a niche; affordable cost of a law degree and greater access by minorities and/or lower income students.  That need still exists.  We should not be willing to give up.

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

1 hour ago, GrayEagle said:

The fact is it's already happened.  The question is what is the best way to fix it.  

The idea for a law school in Dallas did not originate with UNT; it originated in Austin.  With the building donated we had a leg up on any other university and we jumped on it.  The timing was terrible but if Austin and Dallas wanted it to happen it was the right thing to do.  I only wish that it had been put under the jurisdiction of the Denton campus although I don't know if the administration at that time was much better than that of the fragile Dallas college.  Now, I believe that President Smatresk could somehow make a go of it.

Cutting our losses now is likely not the best solution until we are convinced that it absolutely will not work.  UNT is a respected institution; it's not a seat of the pants for-profit storefront.  We need to talk to both the State and the ABA for time and help to fix the problem.  

Correlate this to our recent AD situation.  It was determined that football was worth improving so what happens?  We hire a new coach and athletic director and raise the funding.  Is the gamble worth it?  We don't know, but if attitude change is an indication, it's beginning to look as if it is.  Who on this board doesn't believe that it was the right thing to do?

There is a certain amount of prestige with a university having a law school.  The UNT School of Law was founded to fill a niche; affordable cost of a law degree and greater access by minorities and/or lower income students.  That need still exists.  We should not be willing to give up.

No better way to help lower income students than to sink them into even more debt, with few scholarships, and a degree from a barely (or not) accredited law school. I disagree, I think the best option for the ABA, the legal community at large, and UNT is to cut losses.  I know that probably won't happen, but one can hope.

Edited August 15, 2016 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

[wardly]

Why would we create a law school that is not needed? At least 25% of law school graduates can't get a job.What the state really needs are more schools of pharmacy for an aging society , not a yal'l come law school designed for students who would have a hard time getting into court reporting programs. In my opinion it's an embarrassment for the entire UNT System.

[untcampbell]

I am not educated in the matters of law schools, lawyers and whether either is needed or not, but it does seem that poor people need legal representation that the prototypical lawyer graduating from Harvard or even Baylor may not want to provide. Maybe the mission is on track, but not realistic. Maybe the implementation of the mission is not on track yet. Maybe this type of mission, so unheard of in Texas, has yet to be fully baked. 

But I am not convinced that an effort to meet the needs of a niche student substantially unserved is an embarrassment for the entire UNT System.

 

GMG

[MeanGreen_MBA]

7 minutes ago, untcampbell said:

I am not educated in the matters of law schools, lawyers and whether either is needed or not, but it does seem that poor people need legal representation that the prototypical lawyer graduating from Harvard or even Baylor may not want to provide. Maybe the mission is on track, but not realistic. Maybe the implementation of the mission is not on track yet. Maybe this type of mission, so unheard of in Texas, has yet to be fully baked. 

But I am not convinced that an effort to meet the needs of a niche student substantially unserved is an embarrassment for the entire UNT System.

 

GMG

I am sure there are many young, and not so young professionals that cannot quit work to go to law school, but want to go to law school.  I don't know of any unemployed lawyers, and I know many....  As a matter of fact, most of the lawyers I know, make a substantial living compared to most people.  Why is this a problem.  If I were, 20 yrs younger, I would consider a UNT JD

[letsgiveacheer]

I suspect that it will be a long time before UNT-D's graduates are recruited by any of the large partnerships in the DFW area. According to this article in Money magazine, more than half of new attorneys are starting at 62,000 or less.  http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/

 

[MeanGreen_MBA]

Just now, letsgiveacheer said:

I suspect that it will be a long time before UNT-D's graduates are recruited by any of the large partnerships in the DFW area. According to this article in Money magazine, more than half of new attorneys are starting at 62,000 or less.  http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/15/pf/jobs/lawyer-salaries/

 

many go to law school for the benefit of a business achievement.  many start their own law practice, or practice a specific type of law for a corporate function.  None of this requires an SMU name plate

[Cerebus]

50 minutes ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

As a matter of fact, most of the lawyers I know, make a substantial living compared to most people.  Why is this a problem.  If I were, 20 yrs younger, I would consider a UNT JD

I am guessing most of the lawyers you know did not graduate post 2010.  The 2010 class of lawyers has gotten hit very badly and the situation has not substantially changed.  What Happened to the Class of 2010? Empirical Evidence of Structural Change in the Legal Profession

• 20% of 2010 law school graduates work jobs that do not require license.
• Only 40% of them work at a law firm, down from 60% of the 2000 class.
• Unemployment for lawyers (JD) who have passed the bar is 6% (rate for computer programmers with a BS: 2.6%)
• Avg debt for law school was $77K for public and $112k for private.

Even more importantly, the low prestige law schools are getting the worse of it.  The American Lawyer had an article stating that unemployment for graduates of these schools was much higher:

Quote

Alternatively, employers might be unwilling to hire graduates from some law schools no matter what their industry is. Indeed, the 20 law schools with the highest percentage of graduates seeking work account for nearly 30 percent of all such graduates, and nearly all of those schools had an unemployment rate above 20 percent. These schools may simply be selling a J.D. that isn't at all versatile.

 

Lastly, when you throw in the fact that many businesses which are now hiring back empty legal positions are choosing to hire part time instead of full time.    You could decide to go to law school  right now, you could also decide to take on 100k in debt for a degree in French Literature.  Not sure either one is a good bet.

 

I think Gray is right.  It's too late to cut bait.  NT has to make this right.  However the leadership that led us into this boondoggle has some explaining to do.  

[Arkstfan]

Even with so many grads struggling to find jobs, many are turning down jobs in public service type positions because the pay is downright awful. You can make more waiting tables at a nice restaurant. The great law jobs have shrunk dramatically. Today if you aren't going to graduate in the top third or more likely quarter of one of the better schools in your state or you aren't a grad of an elite you need to know how to do something else.

If you have a STEM background there are still good jobs out there even if you aren't from an elite or a top grad because there are many legal issues and needs to be addressed by people conversant with STEM issues.

Ditto medical fields and insurance. Get an RN and a JD and there are some great positions out there. Used to be true of banking, if you had any sort of banking experience you could parlay that. Guy I went to law school with worked part-time as a teller in college and most of law school, now CEO of a smaller bank. Consolidation may have dried that up.

Frankly located in Dallas my emphasis would be on a four or five year part time programs and I'd by the mailing lists of every medical profession requiring at least a bachelor's degree for licensing, every insurance agent, anyone registered as an engineer, buy ads in professional association journals and direct mail them to death about part-time law degree program.

[risinggreen]

22 minutes ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

many go to law school for the benefit of a business achievement.  many start their own law practice, or practice a specific type of law for a corporate function.  None of this requires an SMU name plate

Exactly. Quite a few individuals go to law school with no desire whatsoever to work for the Baker & Botts of the world, so I'm not so sure that we should judge the school at this stage of it's evolution by the "big firm job" criteria.

My first accounting job out of school was working for a CPA who was attending the unaccredited DFW Law School in Irving. After Texas Wesleyan took over, he eventually graduated and is now making so much money as a sole proprietor that he can't even talk himself into retiring.

People have many different reasons for attending law school, and it's really a personal decision as to whether or not they want to take on that debt. It's all about baby steps for the school, and if they can get through this startup period, things will hopefully work out for the best.

 

 

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

2 hours ago, untcampbell said:

I am not educated in the matters of law schools, lawyers and whether either is needed or not, but it does seem that poor people need legal representation that the prototypical lawyer graduating from Harvard or even Baylor may not want to provide. Maybe the mission is on track, but not realistic. Maybe the implementation of the mission is not on track yet. Maybe this type of mission, so unheard of in Texas, has yet to be fully baked. 

But I am not convinced that an effort to meet the needs of a niche student substantially unserved is an embarrassment for the entire UNT System.

 

GMG

Because, frankly, poor people don't pay. They get legal representation from government programs such as legal aid or the public defenders office. As was already stated, these jobs are already in high demand with grads, who are desperate for anything right now. More people go to law school "because they want to help people" or so they say than do for the money these days. You get a lot of humanitarian liberal arts majors and such getting law degrees right now who are more than happy to work for the lower income folks at either legal aid or the PDs office, and they already go to either A&M or SMU or one of the 8 other law schools in this state. I'm saying this as one of those post-2010 grads @Cerebus mentions. The profession is nothing like it was when DFW Law School started over 20 years ago. 

24 minutes ago, risinggreen said:

Exactly. Quite a few individuals go to law school with no desire whatsoever to work for the Baker & Botts of the world, so I'm not so sure that we should judge the school at this stage of it's evolution by the "big firm job" criteria.

My first accounting job out of school was working for a CPA who was attending the unaccredited DFW Law School in Irving. After Texas Wesleyan took over, he eventually graduated and is now making so much money as a sole proprietor that he can't even talk himself into retiring.

People have many different reasons for attending law school, and it's really a personal decision as to whether or not they want to take on that debt. It's all about baby steps for the school, and if they can get through this startup period, things will hopefully work out for the best.

 

 

It's not just big law, that's out of reach for A&M grads, and the majority of SMU or Baylor law grads as well. It's any job. I think it's irresponsible to open a law school in this market, frankly. 

[UNT90]

2 hours ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

I am sure there are many young, and not so young professionals that cannot quit work to go to law school, but want to go to law school.  I don't know of any unemployed lawyers, and I know many....  As a matter of fact, most of the lawyers I know, make a substantial living compared to most people.  Why is this a problem.  If I were, 20 yrs younger, I would consider a UNT JD

There are many unemployed and underemployed young lawyers out there. The market is saturated.  And to think a law school is there to generate representation only for poor people is insane, unless you like a really, really dirt poor law school. 

Law Schools, much like the school of business, offer varied specialties from which to choose for potential JDs. 

And yes, anyone with any knowledge will tell you it's an over saturated job market right now.

[risinggreen]

18 minutes ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Because, frankly, poor people don't pay. They get legal representation from government programs such as legal aid or the public defenders office. As was already stated, these jobs are already in high demand with grads, who are desperate for anything right now. More people go to law school "because they want to help people" or so they say than do for the money these days. You get a lot of humanitarian liberal arts majors and such getting law degrees right now who are more than happy to work for the lower income folks at either legal aid or the PDs office, and they already go to either A&M or SMU or one of the 8 other law schools in this state. I'm saying this as one of those post-2010 grads @Cerebus mentions. The profession is nothing like it was when DFW Law School started over 20 years ago. 

It's not just big law, that's out of reach for A&M grads, and the majority of SMU or Baylor law grads as well. It's any job. I think it's irresponsible to open a law school in this market, frankly. 

It's all about class rank and connections. If you're highly ranked from those two schools you can get the big law job, if not, well, not so easy. It also doesn't hurt in this climate to be a high achieving minority or female graduate. 

If I were an attorney looking for a job, I would definitely brush up on my Spanish. If Hillary gets a Demo. congress, immigration attorneys are likely to be in high demand.

[UNT90]

If that happens, immigration attorneys won't be needed. At all. 

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

15 minutes ago, risinggreen said:

It's all about class rank and connections. If you're highly ranked from those two schools you can get the big law job, if not, well, not so easy. It also doesn't hurt in this climate to be a high achieving minority or female graduate. 

If I were an attorney looking for a job, I would definitely brush up on my Spanish. If Hillary gets a Demo. congress, immigration attorneys are likely to be in high demand.

That's why I said majority. The majority isn't in the top of the class, law school curve and everything. Very few are in the top of their class, so nothing I said contradict that. Majority at any law school aren't getting big law jobs, and big law is struggling just as much as any other sector of the legal market right now. More than 50% of attorneys are solo practioners, and fewer than 5% work in offices with over 100 attorneys. Hillary comment is off topic...

[risinggreen]

1 minute ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

That's why I said majority. The majority isn't in the top of the class, law school curve and everything. Very few are in the top of their class, so nothing I said contradict that. Majority at any law school aren't getting big law jobs, and big law is struggling just as much as any other sector of the legal market right now. More than 50% of attorneys are solo practioners, and fewer than 5% work in offices with over 100 attorneys. Hillary comment is off topic...

Sorry, but I don't see how the Hillary comment was off topic since it is directly related to legal positions post-election. My apologies. Frankly, isn't this whole thread WAY off topic considering that it is located in the football forum? 

[UNT 90 Grad]

[Cerebus]

1 hour ago, UNT 90 Grad said:

Is there any way we can steer UNT Law into becoming the preeminent school for creating lawyers who can get us waivers through the NCAA?  

Question.  No info.

[MCMLXXX]

3 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

 Hillary comment is off topic...

Hillary proves that even when you flunk the bar exam where you want to practice you can always move to Arkansas and get a second chance.

[FirefightnRick]

On August 15, 2016 at 8:31 AM, TreeFiddy said:

Pretty sure I remember someone posting some of the real numbers that were involved in what TWU was asking. The numbers ended up being a lot higher that the lowball number that tends to get thrown around. 

 

Right...because the $22 Million that "at that time" BOR members C. Dan Smith and Bobby Ray told me were below what was eventually reported in the paper.

On one hand..pffft...what would those two guys know, right?

And on the other...if they were even lets say...$50 Million off on what they were "throwing around"..(they weren't as it was around $35 Million reported as best I recall)..then UNT Dallas is still a huge waste of resources considering the difference in what we could have gotten back then.....and what we've blown and stil don't have today.

 

Rick

Edited August 16, 2016 by FirefightnRick

[EagleMBA]

19 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

Because, frankly, poor people don't pay. They get legal representation from government programs such as legal aid or the public defenders office. As was already stated, these jobs are already in high demand with grads, who are desperate for anything right now. More people go to law school "because they want to help people" or so they say than do for the money these days. You get a lot of humanitarian liberal arts majors and such getting law degrees right now who are more than happy to work for the lower income folks at either legal aid or the PDs office, and they already go to either A&M or SMU or one of the 8 other law schools in this state. I'm saying this as one of those post-2010 grads @Cerebus mentions. The profession is nothing like it was when DFW Law School started over 20 years ago. 

 

I think it is commendable in this "me..me..me" time that there are young minds out there who feel their calling is to serve man.