UNT Dallas Law School in danger of not getting accredited

ChristopherRyanWilkes · August 10, 2016

1 hour ago, risinggreen said:

Current legal job openings or not, we need to think representation down the road, and having a functioning and eventually accredited law school is the best avenue toward that goal. Of course I would prefer that it be located in Denton.

You don't want bad representation out there. Did you see the statistics of the first class? 20% on academic probation, on a curb with other students with low LSAT scores. The problem is, even with Texas A&M buying Wesleyan there are still tons of reputation hurdles it has to jump even in DFW. That affects graduates more than they realize while in school. There are automatically On-Campus Interviews you won't qualify for. We are talking about a brand new school in a prestige and reputation based profession. There are always those who come out of even the lowest ranked law school who make something for themselves, but the problem here is a lot of these students may not even pass the bar, even if accreditation happens. This, during a time when bar passage rates even at well regarded school are at an all-time low.

I guess my point is -- Wesleyan/A&M law is just now starting to get recognized alumni in government or elsewhere, such as the last two Dallas County DA's, and this is well over 20 years after the school started. This idea that you can just start a law school and suddenly get alumni in legislation is just not true. The best hope of that is UNT undergrads who go to law school elsewhere.

This is also assuming these students will even consider themselves UNT alum. That may not matter even if it were in Denton, as most will have different Alma Maters they put first in the pecking order.

Edited August 10, 2016 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

Eastwood Eagle · August 10, 2016

4 hours ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

There are plenty of folks from SMU and A&M law willing to take public service jobs or any legal jobs at the moment, trust me. They aren't filling a need and opened at probably the worst possible time.

Could not have said it any better. I think a lot of people miss this point. One of the proposed reasons for opening the school was to provide legal access to those in need in the North Texas area. But, as you mention, students at every single law school are already drawn to public service and non-profit work. When I was at UHLC, I would guess around 15 - 20% of our class were interested in some sort of public service or non-profit. This need is already covered by law schools.

When you crack away at that reason, it's hard to find another legitimate reason to say UNT-Law is necessary for the community.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · August 10, 2016

13 minutes ago, Eastwood Eagle said:

Could not have said it any better. I think a lot of people miss this point. One of the proposed reasons for opening the school was to provide legal access to those in need in the North Texas area. But, as you mention, students at every single law school are already drawn to public service and non-profit work. When I was at UHLC, I would guess around 15 - 20% of our class were interested in some sort of public service or non-profit. This need is already covered by law schools.

When you crack away at that reason, it's hard to find another legitimate reason to say UNT-Law is necessary for the community.

I understand the low-income angle, but there are low-income students at every school who are there based on merit. Albeit not many, but that's a systematic problem and not one single law school can fix. The tuition is low for law school, but $15,000 a year for an unaccredited law school could go to a perfectly accredited masters or MBA program at UNT as well.

And yes, at my school the DA's or PD office are probably the second most popular choice of students outside the off chance of a decent sized law firm.

Edited August 10, 2016 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

MCMLXXX · August 10, 2016

5 hours ago, DeepGreen said:

If you're gonna have a law school, put it on the main campus in Denton!

We should have purchased Texas Wesleyan Law School when we had the chance. It was already accredited and could have been moved.

Although I prefer Law schools be on campus, being the only public law school in Dallas is beneficial. Texas A&M Law is quickly improving its reputation and it is no where near the main campus. Northwestern Law School is in downtown Chicago, not on campus.

Royal Ferguson is very well respected and if anyone can make it work he can.

Nonetheless, given the cost of law school and availability of employment, anyone considering a legal career should very carefully weigh the costs. That being said, I am exceptionally happy with the choice I made 36 years ago.

Edited August 10, 2016 by MCMLXXX

Green Lantern · August 10, 2016

5 hours ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

Dallas is the right place for this campus......location, location, location....All will be fine with the Law School

Location isn't the problem. Law School being physically located in Dallas makes total sense. Associating it with the boondoggle that is UNT Dallas vs. being under the umbrella of the flagship in Denton is absolutely the problem. BS politics forced this and crippled it from the get go. That's where the ire comes from.

Rudy · August 10, 2016

13 hours ago, untbowler said:

Lee Jackson is a waste of air

You could have stopped right there.

jredallas · August 10, 2016

10 hours ago, MCMLXXX said:

Royal Ferguson is very well respected and if anyone can make it work he can.

I agree with you on this, but I wonder if they would have been better served to pick someone who had actually led a law school previously.

MCMLXXX · August 10, 2016

4 hours ago, jredallas said:

I agree with you on this, but I wonder if they would have been better served to pick someone who had actually led a law school previously.

A startup law school would likely have ended up with the Dan McCarney of Deans.

TripleGrad · August 11, 2016

I am a UNT and Wesleyan/A&M transition graduate.

The mission and target market for the UNT law school is noble, but I think that mission was planned back when it was hard to find folks to take the public sector jobs. Right now, any decent (and non-decent) opening that requires a JD get their pick of many applicants. The job market UNT was targeting simply doesn't exist any longer. Frankly, the job market as a whole just doesn't exist for baby lawyers. If I were starting now instead of 6 years ago, I would simply not attend law school at all.

The other side of the coin is more interesting. SMU and A&M have both killed their night programs over the past several years. That really used to be the Wesleyan niche -- the older professional who wanted a change but could not leave the Metromess. A&M has abandoned those folks in an effort to refocus the school and move up the ladder. Nobody was ever cross-shopping SMU and UNT. So now, if you're in that position your only option is UNT. One of the ABA complaints was that UNT is somewhat relying on an influx of would-have-been-Wesleyan folks to work out the school financials, but that UNT hasn't actually tried to find out if those folks still exist. It's a valid concern.

The physical location is exactly right. That school, like A&M in Fort Worth, needs to be near real functional courts, firms, and agencies. For those students, the importance of clinics and externships cannot be overstated. Denton is fabulous, but it just doesn't have the infrastructure.

Everyone involved in this plan -- with the exception of the students -- has to be looking at the school as a 30 year project. I fully expect them to get past this and move forward.

Now, can someone explain how this became a UNT Dallas program? That part I just don't understand at all.

Stan R · August 11, 2016

I don't know why all of this even matters. In 15 years all lawyers and most professions will be replaced with AI bots or fully capable droids anyway. Everyone should just prepare for universal income and our house-droids. Also soylent green. Sit back and enjoy. :cool:

GrandGreen · August 11, 2016

34 minutes ago, TripleGrad said:

I am a UNT and Wesleyan/A&M transition graduate.

The mission and target market for the UNT law school is noble, but I think that mission was planned back when it was hard to find folks to take the public sector jobs. Right now, any decent (and non-decent) opening that requires a JD get their pick of many applicants. The job market UNT was targeting simply doesn't exist any longer. Frankly, the job market as a whole just doesn't exist for baby lawyers. If I were starting now instead of 6 years ago, I would simply not attend law school at all.

The other side of the coin is more interesting. SMU and A&M have both killed their night programs over the past several years. That really used to be the Wesleyan niche -- the older professional who wanted a change but could not leave the Metromess. A&M has abandoned those folks in an effort to refocus the school and move up the ladder. Nobody was ever cross-shopping SMU and UNT. So now, if you're in that position your only option is UNT. One of the ABA complaints was that UNT is somewhat relying on an influx of would-have-been-Wesleyan folks to work out the school financials, but that UNT hasn't actually tried to find out if those folks still exist. It's a valid concern.

The physical location is exactly right. That school, like A&M in Fort Worth, needs to be near real functional courts, firms, and agencies. For those students, the importance of clinics and externships cannot be overstated. Denton is fabulous, but it just doesn't have the infrastructure.

Everyone involved in this plan -- with the exception of the students -- has to be looking at the school as a 30 year project. I fully expect them to get past this and move forward.

Now, can someone explain how this became a UNT Dallas program? That part I just don't understand at all.

It is a UNTD program became Dallas/Dallas County have provided a lot of the funding for the start-up.

Lurker · August 11, 2016

Not a Jackson fan by any means, but the idea of a Dallas law school was hatched in Austin. UNT just grabbed it before anyone else. If UNT had not taken it, there would have another school's name on it. Dallas is a big proponent of the UNT Dallas campus and likely helped UNT to take the program on. Dallas County has also donated a building to UNT for purposes of expansion downtown.

Harry · August 11, 2016

Just now, Lurker said:

Not a Jackson fan by any means, but the idea of a Dallas law school was hatched in Austin. UNT just grabbed it before anyone else. If UNT had not taken it, there would have another school's name on it. Dallas is a big proponent of the UNT Dallas campus and likely helped UNT to take the program on. Dallas County has also donated a building to UNT for purposes of expansion downtown.

Agreed. The timing was not the best, but the law school was a good idea and the location is great. Just will take time. I am sure they will weather this storm.

It's sort of like Big 12 expansion and Houston. The "other" law schools hate the fact that a new law school located in a law mecca (Downtown Dallas) is now in play. They know that in time it will become successful. So they are going to throw stones for as long as they can. They are going to get accredited. Too much money and political push.

MCMLXXX · August 11, 2016

2 hours ago, TripleGrad said:

Now, can someone explain how this became a UNT Dallas program? That part I just don't understand at all.

Royce West.

FirefightnRick · August 11, 2016

17 minutes ago, MCMLXXX said:

Royce West.

"If we don't give every high school student graduating in the top 10 percent of their class a free ride to college we're gonna miss out on some geniuses".-Royce West

Rick

UNT 90 Grad · August 11, 2016

On August 9, 2016 at 10:32 AM, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Harry, what's the football angle here?

^This. Can an Admin move this to the appropriate forum?

Wait, it was started by an Admin. Never mind. Carry on.

ChristopherRyanWilkes · August 12, 2016

9 hours ago, Harry said:

Agreed. The timing was not the best, but the law school was a good idea and the location is great. Just will take time. I am sure they will weather this storm.

It's sort of like Big 12 expansion and Houston. The "other" law schools hate the fact that a new law school located in a law mecca (Downtown Dallas) is now in play. They know that in time it will become successful. So they are going to throw stones for as long as they can. They are going to get accredited. Too much money and political push.

With all due respect, and all due hatred toward SMU, UNT-Dallas law will never be a threat to SMU law.

wardly · August 12, 2016

Interesting article on under performing law schools on p.19A of today's DMN.While it didn't mention UNT by name, we certainly fit the profile of law schools who have no reason to exist. The original purpose of UNT's Dallas law school was to fill a void in that there was not a state supported school of law in DFW. Once A&M purchased TWU's law school that void was filled, and the state should have put the breaks on the establishment of "a cheap law school for cheap lawyers". What a waste of taxpayer's money.

MCMLXXX · August 12, 2016

5 hours ago, wardly said:

Once A&M purchased TWU's law school that void was filled, and the state should have put the breaks on the establishment of "a cheap law school for cheap lawyers". What a waste of taxpayer's money.

According to Aggies I know, A&M Law School has a goal of focusing on intellectual property and similar areas while getting away from the concept of "a cheap law school for cheap lawyers". I will assure you they will do what it takes to separate themselves from that perception while still touting those past grads that have been successful. Despite requests from Wesleyan grads to get degrees that say TX A&M they have refused to accommodate them. I know a State District Judge who is irate that they will not do so for her, they can't be selective on that, it is all or none. I guess from the Wesleyan grads perspective perception is everything when it comes to the name on the degree.

wardly · August 13, 2016

I was referring to UNT's Law School as a "cheap law school for cheap lawyers", not the A&M Law School, which is not cheap.

GrayEagle · August 14, 2016

The DMN had an editorial this morning (Sunday) in support of the law school. It said that there was a need for minorities or low income people to have a path to a law degree without assuming six-figure debt. Said to keep trying and to appeal if the ruling becomes official in October.

The problem is this first class (and maybe the second) if approval is not forthcoming soon. They have been out the expense and won't even be able to take the bar exam. Maybe it's time to get a team of North Texas undergraduates who are lawyers and see if they can suggest a solution.

wardly · August 14, 2016

Cut Bait!

TreeFiddy · August 14, 2016

Maybe this is just a sign that we are pissing off the right people?

ChristopherRyanWilkes · August 14, 2016

5 hours ago, GrayEagle said:

The DMN had an editorial this morning (Sunday) in support of the law school. It said that there was a need for minorities or low income people to have a path to a law degree without assuming six-figure debt. Said to keep trying and to appeal if the ruling becomes official in October.

The problem is this first class (and maybe the second) if approval is not forthcoming soon. They have been out the expense and won't even be able to take the bar exam. Maybe it's time to get a team of North Texas undergraduates who are lawyers and see if they can suggest a solution.

They could easily still have 6-figures in debt even at UNT-Dallas law. $15,000 tuition alone + Cost of Living in a year x 3 years of school. It's adds up quick. All the debt to be placed in probably one of the worst job situations for law students in America, with no alumni job connections to begin with.

There are undergrad UNT folks who are lawyers posting on this thread. Their suggestion, long ago, was: don't do it.

UNT90 · August 15, 2016

6 hours ago, GrayEagle said:

The DMN had an editorial this morning (Sunday) in support of the law school. It said that there was a need for minorities or low income people to have a path to a law degree without assuming six-figure debt. Said to keep trying and to appeal if the ruling becomes official in October.

The problem is this first class (and maybe the second) if approval is not forthcoming soon. They have been out the expense and won't even be able to take the bar exam. Maybe it's time to get a team of North Texas undergraduates who are lawyers and see if they can suggest a solution.

Don't you mean UNT-Dallas grads?

This law school isn't associated with UNT-Denton...

25 minutes ago, ChristopherRyanWilkes said:

They could easily still have 6-figures in debt even at UNT-Dallas law. $15,000 tuition alone + Cost of Living in a year x 3 years of school. It's adds up quick. All the debt to be placed in probably one of the worst job situations for law students in America, with no alumni job connections to begin with.

There are undergrad UNT folks who are lawyers posting on this thread. Their suggestion, long ago, was: don't do it.

Should have bought TWU law when UNT had the opportunity. Again, shortsightedness has cursed this university.