SMU making pitch to Big 12

TheWestie · July 24, 2016

So since everything in sports has become a "What have you done for me lately" situation, lets go over some numbers:

UNT conference championships:

Men's basketball: 2010

Women's Soccer: 2011 2012, 2014

Men's Cross Country: 2014

Men's Golf: 2013, 2014, 2015

Women's Track: 2012, 2013

Women's Tennis: 2010, 2012, 2013

We had one bowl game, which we won.

Cerebus · July 24, 2016

1 hour ago, ADLER said:

**** are you, in fact, endorsing Floyd the possibly incognito 36 year old Port Aransas cocaine dealer as our next athletic director?.

The man got results. Not sure he could translate his womanizing skills to athletic directoring. If he could, the first event at Apogee in 2018 would be a steal cage death match Bob Bowlsby and Greg Sankey, winner getting NT to join their conference.

untjim1995 · July 28, 2016

On ‎7‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 7:10 PM, TheWestie said:

So since everything in sports has become a "What have you done for me lately" situation, lets go over some numbers:

UNT conference championships:

Men's basketball: 2010

~~Women's Soccer: 2011 2012, 2014~~

~~Men's Cross Country: 2014~~

~~Men's Golf: 2013, 2014, 2015~~

~~Women's Track: 2012, 2013~~

~~Women's Tennis: 2010, 2012, 2013~~

We had one bowl game, which we won.

For purposes of media and fans, the post above has been fixed to reflect what garners attention from other conferences. Since 2006, we have two NCAA appearances for winning the SBC tournament. We have that one bowl winning season.

Our football team has gone 34-84 in the last 10 seasons. It just suffered the worst loss imaginable last year at the hands of Portland State on Homecoming, while managing to miraculously win a game against another awful team that was down to its 5th string QB in the second half of a game here in Denton that we won by a late TD. That's what we have done lately. Benford's record speaks for itself on this, as well, yet he is about to get a 5th season to coach here, which will most likely reward us with a Trilli-esque season to finish out his tenure here.

SMU didn't make that pitch to think they were gonna get any serious consideration from the Big XII--they did it for the sake of their fans to see that they are trying. That, alone, is probably worth millions to their university because of their rich alumni.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 28, 2016

On 7/21/2016 at 5:15 PM, Wag Tag said:

Can they rent fans?

KA-POW! Post of the Decade!

On 7/21/2016 at 6:53 PM, Harry said:

Agreed, but also the AAC could just implode. They lose their three top programs by far. Does SMU, Tulsa, Tulane want to stay in an eastern travel conference or move to regional? The more I think of it, this could be like the old Cusa (SMU, Tulsa, Rice, Tulane, UTEP, UTSA) and we are in the Belt... ugh...

More likely, the C-USA implodes as AAC takes on just enough, just enough for the city.

Edited July 28, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

UNT90 · July 29, 2016

8 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

KA-POW! Post of the Decade!

More likely, the C-USA implodes as AAC takes on just enough, just enough for the city.

cdizzle86 · July 29, 2016

Live look at their Big 12 pitch.

Rudy · July 29, 2016

They could be a travel partner for Baylor's Hooker Killing Team.

All About UNT · July 29, 2016

34 minutes ago, Rudy said:

They could be a travel partner for Baylor's Hooker Killing Team.

Hahahahahahahaha

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 29, 2016

14 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Yes!

23 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

For purposes of media and fans, the post above has been fixed to reflect what garners attention from other conferences. Since 2006, we have two NCAA appearances for winning the SBC tournament. We have that one bowl winning season.

Our football team has gone 34-84 in the last 10 seasons. It just suffered the worst loss imaginable last year at the hands of Portland State on Homecoming, while managing to miraculously win a game against another awful team that was down to its 5th string QB in the second half of a game here in Denton that we won by a late TD. That's what we have done lately. Benford's record speaks for itself on this, as well, yet he is about to get a 5th season to coach here, which will most likely reward us with a Trilli-esque season to finish out his tenure here.

SMU didn't make that pitch to think they were gonna get any serious consideration from the Big XII--they did it for the sake of their fans to see that they are trying. That, alone, is probably worth millions to their university because of their rich alumni.

We have rich alumni as well. Ours just haven't "ponied up" as much lately...or ever.

Harry · July 29, 2016

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We have rich alumni as well. Ours just haven't "ponied up" as much lately...or ever.

We have many well-to-do alumni. They haven't had much to get excited about on the field and need to be asked to support. Hopefully that will be changing real soon.

You don't get rich by making bad investments. Show people a rising program that is taken seriously by our administration and you will be shocked at how this thing changes.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 29, 2016

3 hours ago, Harry said:

We have many well-to-do alumni. They haven't had much to get excited about on the field and need to be asked to support. Hopefully that will be changing real soon.

You don't get rich by making bad investments. Show people a rising program that is taken seriously by our administration and you will be shocked at how this thing changes.

I agree. Problem for us is, other school's rich alumni started donating big time back in the early 90s.

We kind of just went along to go along for too long. Recall in 1994 when the NCAA said you have to have 30,000 seating, so we had a guy donate for high school-like bleachers? I mean, people complained a hell of a lot around here about RV...but, sheesh. We did the bare minimum for many, many years after we went I-AA...and, even a little before that.

It's what makes me feel for the real old timer, the guys who played and the alumni prior to the 90s. We had a good football program that was competitive. The money just didn't roll in.

You look at that game that Kansas State said was their turning point, the close victory against us up there in 1989. They had a guy put some of his money into it back in those days, $10 million or so. A lot of money for that time, and for a program literally on the brink of extinction. Corkey had our I-AA beating Tech and TCU and the like.

I don't care who it was, or that we were I-AA, rarely did any OOC SWC or Big 8 school run roughshod over us during the Nelson era:

Corky's I-AA Boys Versus Big 8s and SWCs
1982
@ Baylor, lost 21-17 ... that Baylor team beat Lou Holtz's Arkansas sqaud that finished 9-2-1; and lost 21-14 to Ohio State at Columbus
@ Oklahoma State, lost 27-6 to a Jimmy Johnson coached Aggie squad
@ SMU, lost 38-10 to the Pony Expre$$ squad that went 10-0-1, won the SWC, tying only Arkansas to keep them from a national title claim

1983
@ Oklahoma State, lost again to Jimmy Johnson's Ags, but this time only 20-13
@ Texas, lost 26-6 to a Texas squad that went 11-1, were SWC champs, and lost a national title claim when Georgia gave them their only loss 10-9 in the Cotton Bowl

1984
@ SMU, lost 24-6 to the SWC Co-champs
@ TCU, lost 34-3 to a TCU squad that was paying Egypt Allen, Kenneth Davis, and others during what was then a rare winning season for the Frogs

1985
@ Oklahoma State, lost 10-9, to an Aggie squad that went 8-4
@ Texas Tech, lost 28-7, unfortunately to a Red Raider squad led by former NTSU head coach Jerry Moore...who later won three I-AA national titles at App St.
@ Kansas State, won 22-10. THIS. We were, as I-AAs, as good as the Big 8s worst at the time.
@ TCU, lost 14-10,

1986
@ Texas A&M, lost 48-28, to Jackie Sherrill's SEC championship squad
@ TCU, won 24-20 ... like the 1985 win at Manhattan against K-State, here we were equal or better than the lower rung of SWC schools

1987
@ Oklahoma, lost 69-14, to a Sooner squad that played for the national title that season
@ TCU, lost 19-10

1988
@ Texas Tech, won 29-24, against a middle of the pack Red Raider squad that finished 5-6 on the year...yes, we were I-AA and knocking off a middle of the pack SWC school
@ Texas, "lost" 27-24, a game that was given to Texas at the end when a ball caught out of bounds was ruled a touchdown for the 'Horns.
@ Rice, won 33-17, a I-AA's clobbering the SWC cellar dweller

1989
@ Kansas State, lost 20-17, to a K-State squad just beginning to spend money on quality coaches and facilities
@ SMU, lost 35-9

1990
@ Texas A&M, lost 40-8,
SMU IN DENTON, won 14-7

Corkey coached 22 games against Big 8 and SWC schools during his tenure. Yes, he won only five of them...but, he won them with I-AA squads versus I-A squads. Average score was, 26-16. I mean, can you imagine being within 10 points of a Big 12 school today? It wouldn't happen.

Darrell Dickey did it a few times...and, we hate him? The guy beat Texas Tech and Baylor, and hung with TCU and Arizona on the road! And, we hate him?

Sh*t.

That was a critical time in our football program's history, the late 80s. So, what did we do? Let Nelson go...and hire a high school coach. And people complain about Villarreal?

At that point, we were even talent-wise with the middle to lower rungs of the Big 8 and SWC, and we did nothing in the way of keeping a good coach, expanding and upgrading facilities, or much else. We never cashed in on the momentum of those late 80s squads that went toe-to-toe with SWC and Big 8 schools.

What could have been if we'd recognized, as K-State did then, that there was an arms race on the horizon. K-State, of course, always saw Oklahoma and Nebraska upgrading. I guess our leaders and donors at the time just accepted where we were.

We were all students back then, many of us, mid-80s to mid-90s. It's just a real uphill climb for us now as pricey as the whole thing has gotten.

Also, young Eagles - strictly UNT alumni and current students, it is insulting to the older generation of players when you say we've never been competitive. That's not true. It's a damned lie. Guys like Scott Davis, Rex Johnson, Lance White, Scott Bowles, Byron Gross, Marcus Camper...you tell those guys who beat I-A SWC and Big 8 schools on the road as I-AAs that they weren't competitive, okay?

Also, young Eagles, tell 60s and 70s I-A and NFL stars like Joe Greene, J.T. Smith, Cedric Hardeman, Spider Lockhart, Abner Haynes, Barry Moore, Steve Ramsey, Willie Parker, John Love, and so on, how uncompetitive the were in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

You completely disregard Odus Mitchell's 122-85-9 record from 1946 to 1966 and his ten conference championships, two others from Rod Rust and Hayden Fry. And, you ignore Corky Nelson's conference title and multiple appearances in the I-A playoffs.

This school did have an excellent football history. It was not screwed up by RV...it was screwed up long before RV. I am sorry that you younger Eagles didn't experience much winning. There was a fleeting glimpse of the old under Darrell Dickey...but, the younger Eagles hate him, so...best of luck to Coach Littrell in educating the young Eagles on this program's history.

Edited July 29, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

untjim1995 · July 29, 2016

I think your awesome recap, MeanGreenMailbox is exactly why so many of us are of the mindset that we truly blew it as far as ever being a legitimate FBS program that could never get reclassified again.

We had so many chances to get it right. But we went on the cheap in 1995 and stayed that way for too long. By the time we fixed some huge problems, from the stadium to the conference affiliation, our epic losing in the last decade, with realignment and cost going crazy, we lost any chance to move up to a non-power league that won't get reclassified down.

To me, that is the damn shame to those players, coaches, and fans that stuck with North Texas (State) during the FCS fiasco and in there early I-A days. They got no support institutionally. And now, when they see UNT's leadership finally step up in regards to athletics, they see pure suck on the field and court that they never dealt with at a time that UNT offered FAR fewer resources and support. And the rub is that it all occurred when realignment upward could/should have happened here, much more than being moved up to SBC 2.0.

RaiderEagle · July 29, 2016

Not that SMU has absolutely nothing to offer but I can't imagine the Big 12 having interest. Adding them doesn't get the conference additional TVs which seems to be a key factor in conference expansion talk. Already having TCU in the conference probably all but assures SMU will never get an invite.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 29, 2016

14 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

I think your awesome recap, MeanGreenMailbox is exactly why so many of us are of the mindset that we truly blew it as far as ever being a legitimate FBS program that could never get reclassified again.

We had so many chances to get it right. But we went on the cheap in 1995 and stayed that way for too long. By the time we fixed some huge problems, from the stadium to the conference affiliation, our epic losing in the last decade, with realignment and cost going crazy, we lost any chance to move up to a non-power league that won't get reclassified down.

To me, that is the damn shame to those players, coaches, and fans that stuck with North Texas (State) during the FCS fiasco and in there early I-A days. They got no support institutionally. And now, when they see UNT's leadership finally step up in regards to athletics, they see pure suck on the field and court that they never dealt with at a time that UNT offered FAR fewer resources and support. And the rub is that it all occurred when realignment upward could/should have happened here, much more than being moved up to SBC 2.0.

Yeah, I mean...

...right now, it would take a miracle set of circumstances. You look at what programs are throwing up now, and it almost makes T. Boone Pickens' gift of $165 million to Oklahoma State in 2010/11 to be kind of middle of the road!

It would take a gift of that size, and probably larger, to get us even for the fumbling that took place at the end of Corkey Nelson's tenure. Damn shame, too...those were extremely good football squads to be going toe to toe the lower to regional foes in the Big 8 and SWC.

Wasted, wasted, wasted momentum. K-State was lower on the rung than us back then, just about. Ditto Rice. They were just awful at football and we beat them both on the road under Corky.

Part of the reason I was so vehemently against hiring Todd Dodge was that those of us who were in school here in the late 80s and early 90s had already seen what a set back that was with Dennis Parker.

Just terrible. It costs so much now to catch up. We've already proved that just having a winning season here and there doesn't cut it. People don't flock here, didn't after 2001-2004 or after 2013. It was just never ingrained in our leadership or donors. Never on their radar, man.

Look at Memphis...they are getting Fedex behind them to beg/bid their way into the Big 12. I mean, this thing has corporations begging on behalf of universities now. Do we even have any type of corporation in the DFW to match what Fedex says they'll put up to buy Memphis into the Big 12?

And, here's the potential nightmare for us: what if the poached AAC does exactly what the Big 12 does and says, "Okay, two spots open in the AAC to the highest bidder!"

I mean, that is not an unrealistic scenario based on what it happening now. Can you imagine having to bid to get into the AAC or MWC? Could we even get close based on our donor history?

I just doesn't look good.

Edited July 29, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

Ben Gooding · July 29, 2016

1 minute ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Yeah, I mean...

...right now, it would take a miracle set of circumstances. You look at what programs are throwing up now, and it almost makes T. Boone Pickens' gift of $165 million to Oklahoma State in 2010/11 to be kind of middle of the road!

It would take a gift of that size, and probably larger, to get us even for the fumbling that took place at the end of Corkey Nelson's tenure. Damn shame, too...those were extremely good football squads to be going toe to toe the lower to regional foes in the Big 8 and SWC.

Wasted, wasted, wasted momentum. K-State was lower on the rung than us back then, just about. Ditto Rice. They were just awful at football and we beat them both on the road under Corky.

Part of the reason I was so vehemently against hiring Todd Dodge was that those of us who were in school here in the late 80s and early 90s had already seen what a set back that was with Dennis Parker.

Just terrible. It costs so much now to catch up. We've already proved that just having a winning season here and there doesn't cut it. People don't flock here, didn't after 2001-2004 or after 2013. It was just never ingrained in our leadership or donors. Never on their radar, man.

Look at Memphis...they are getting Fedex behind them to beg/bid their way into the Big 12. I mean, this thing has corporations begging on behalf of universities now. Do we even have any type of corporation in the DFW to match what Fedex says they'll put up to buy Memphis into the Big 12?

And, here's the potential nightmare for us: what if the poached AAC does exactly what the Big 12 does and says, "Okay, two spots open in the AAC to the highest bidder!"

I mean, that is not an unrealistic scenario based on what it happening now. Can you imagine having to bid to get into the AAC or MWC? Could we even get close based on our donor history?

I just doesn't look good.

I disagree a little. It will not take 165M donation to get us competitive with the lowest tier of the big12. That's KU, Iowa St? I think we could be competitive with them very, very soon.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · July 29, 2016

You honestly think we could be competitive with Kansas and Iowa State...soon?

Iowa State averages more than 50,000 even in losing seasons? Kansas' basketball program? The tens of millions they get from the Big 12 even when they post losing football seasons, and you think we're close?

It's about money. They have money and attendance at Iowa State. Kansas has money and basketball.

We don't have money, attendance, or a basketball fall back.

And, Kansas can win in football with the right guy. Glen Mason and Mark Mangino both proved that in the 90s and 00s. Their problem in football was shoddy hires after those guys: Terry Allen after Mason, and Turner Gill after Mangino.

And, hell, Dan McCarney won at Iowa State.

We're way behind on all fronts. It's gonna take a miracle for us to catch up.

UNTflyer · July 29, 2016

56 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

We're way behind on all fronts. It's gonna take a miracle for us to catch up.

And about 20 years of consistent competitiveness.

Wait... that's the same thing

Edited July 29, 2016 by UNTflyer

untjim1995 · July 31, 2016

For UNT to move up, it would take this:, beyond just winning:

1.) MWC wanted back in Texas--as long as the AAC has SMU, the MWC is the only hope to move up.

2,) The Big XII survives, with Houston. The AAC replaces UH with Rice. That leaves UTEP, UTSA, and UNT as the Texas schools they want.

3. We win in BOTH football and men's basketball. The MWC is a damn good hoops league. That sport matters as much, if not more, for both the MWC and the AAC. Look at MUTS, a school with very good basketball, a solid G5 football team, and a good market to deliver in Nashville. If Memphis leaves, the AAC replaces them with MUTS in a heartbeat. That's what we must do to get the MWC's attention.

The reality here is that it's about to get much worse here for us before it gets better, and not just in terms of winning. The AAC probably replaces at least one school, if not 3-4 teams. CUSA will fill most or all of them when they move up. That's Rice to replace UH. That's MUTS replacing Memphis. If Cincy leaves, a MAC team replaces them, probably. But, we lose two decent conference mates, replacing Rice with a non-Texas team. If the Big XII holds together, and we see the MWC adds UTEP and UTSA, we will be forever screwed as a FBS member. And that will be all because we started giving athletics support and funds too late. Miracle is a great way to describe what it will take for us to move upward anytime soon.

Ben Gooding · July 31, 2016

On 7/29/2016 at 1:51 PM, MeanGreenMailbox said:

You honestly think we could be competitive with Kansas and Iowa State...soon?

Iowa State averages more than 50,000 even in losing seasons? Kansas' basketball program? The tens of millions they get from the Big 12 even when they post losing football seasons, and you think we're close?

It's about money. They have money and attendance at Iowa State. Kansas has money and basketball.

We don't have money, attendance, or a basketball fall back.

And, Kansas can win in football with the right guy. Glen Mason and Mark Mangino both proved that in the 90s and 00s. Their problem in football was shoddy hires after those guys: Terry Allen after Mason, and Turner Gill after Mangino.

And, hell, Dan McCarney won at Iowa State.

We're way behind on all fronts. It's gonna take a miracle for us to catch up.

I am referring to competitiveness on the football field. We could be competitive with both IA St and KU very soon on a football field. You brought up close losses to crappy SWC teams. You kind of made it seem as if it was our pinnacle, being competitive with the bottom feeders of the SWC/Big12. We could do that very soon, and it won't take 165M.

15 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

For UNT to move up, it would take this:, beyond just winning:

1.) MWC wanted back in Texas--as long as the AAC has SMU, the MWC is the only hope to move up.

2,) The Big XII survives, with Houston. The AAC replaces UH with Rice. That leaves UTEP, UTSA, and UNT as the Texas schools they want.

3. We win in BOTH football and men's basketball. The MWC is a damn good hoops league. That sport matters as much, if not more, for both the MWC and the AAC. Look at MUTS, a school with very good basketball, a solid G5 football team, and a good market to deliver in Nashville. If Memphis leaves, the AAC replaces them with MUTS in a heartbeat. That's what we must do to get the MWC's attention.

The reality here is that it's about to get much worse here for us before it gets better, and not just in terms of winning. The AAC probably replaces at least one school, if not 3-4 teams. CUSA will fill most or all of them when they move up. That's Rice to replace UH. That's MUTS replacing Memphis. If Cincy leaves, a MAC team replaces them, probably. But, we lose two decent conference mates, replacing Rice with a non-Texas team. If the Big XII holds together, and we see the MWC adds UTEP and UTSA, we will be forever screwed as a FBS member. And that will be all because we started giving athletics support and funds too late. Miracle is a great way to describe what it will take for us to move upward anytime soon.

Big12 is not holding together. It's far off, but in 2024 there will be huge conference shake ups. Tbh, that should be a ticking time bomb for UNT to get their shit in order.

untjim1995 · July 31, 2016

5 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

I am referring to competitiveness on the football field. We could be competitive with both IA St and KU very soon on a football field. You brought up close losses to crappy SWC teams. You kind of made it seem as if it was our pinnacle, being competitive with the bottom feeders of the SWC/Big12. We could do that very soon, and it won't take 165M.

Big12 is not holding together. It's far off, but in 2024 there will be huge conference shake ups. Tbh, that should be a ticking time bomb for UNT to get their shit in order.

I'm just telling you that the Big XII failing anytime in the next 8 years will be lethal to our future at FBS

Wag Tag · July 31, 2016

On July 29, 2016 at 1:30 PM, RaiderEagle said:

Not that SMU has absolutely nothing to offer but I can't imagine the Big 12 having interest. Adding them doesn't get the conference additional TVs which seems to be a key factor in conference expansion talk. Already having TCU in the conference probably all but assures SMU will never get an invite.

I would bet SMU would be willing not to take ANY distribution and would pay $5m a year to be in! They got the $!

UNT90 · July 31, 2016

On July 29, 2016 at 11:49 AM, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I agree. Problem for us is, other school's rich alumni started donating big time back in the early 90s.

We kind of just went along to go along for too long. Recall in 1994 when the NCAA said you have to have 30,000 seating, so we had a guy donate for high school-like bleachers? I mean, people complained a hell of a lot around here about RV...but, sheesh. We did the bare minimum for many, many years after we went I-AA...and, even a little before that.

It's what makes me feel for the real old timer, the guys who played and the alumni prior to the 90s. We had a good football program that was competitive. The money just didn't roll in.

You look at that game that Kansas State said was their turning point, the close victory against us up there in 1989. They had a guy put some of his money into it back in those days, $10 million or so. A lot of money for that time, and for a program literally on the brink of extinction. Corkey had our I-AA beating Tech and TCU and the like.

I don't care who it was, or that we were I-AA, rarely did any OOC SWC or Big 8 school run roughshod over us during the Nelson era:

Corky's I-AA Boys Versus Big 8s and SWCs
1982
@ Baylor, lost 21-17 ... that Baylor team beat Lou Holtz's Arkansas sqaud that finished 9-2-1; and lost 21-14 to Ohio State at Columbus
@ Oklahoma State, lost 27-6 to a Jimmy Johnson coached Aggie squad
@ SMU, lost 38-10 to the Pony Expre$$ squad that went 10-0-1, won the SWC, tying only Arkansas to keep them from a national title claim

1983
@ Oklahoma State, lost again to Jimmy Johnson's Ags, but this time only 20-13
@ Texas, lost 26-6 to a Texas squad that went 11-1, were SWC champs, and lost a national title claim when Georgia gave them their only loss 10-9 in the Cotton Bowl

1984
@ SMU, lost 24-6 to the SWC Co-champs
@ TCU, lost 34-3 to a TCU squad that was paying Egypt Allen, Kenneth Davis, and others during what was then a rare winning season for the Frogs

1985
@ Oklahoma State, lost 10-9, to an Aggie squad that went 8-4
@ Texas Tech, lost 28-7, unfortunately to a Red Raider squad led by former NTSU head coach Jerry Moore...who later won three I-AA national titles at App St.
@ Kansas State, won 22-10. THIS. We were, as I-AAs, as good as the Big 8s worst at the time.
@ TCU, lost 14-10,

1986
@ Texas A&M, lost 48-28, to Jackie Sherrill's SEC championship squad
@ TCU, won 24-20 ... like the 1985 win at Manhattan against K-State, here we were equal or better than the lower rung of SWC schools

1987
@ Oklahoma, lost 69-14, to a Sooner squad that played for the national title that season
@ TCU, lost 19-10

1988
@ Texas Tech, won 29-24, against a middle of the pack Red Raider squad that finished 5-6 on the year...yes, we were I-AA and knocking off a middle of the pack SWC school
@ Texas, "lost" 27-24, a game that was given to Texas at the end when a ball caught out of bounds was ruled a touchdown for the 'Horns.
@ Rice, won 33-17, a I-AA's clobbering the SWC cellar dweller

1989
@ Kansas State, lost 20-17, to a K-State squad just beginning to spend money on quality coaches and facilities
@ SMU, lost 35-9

1990
@ Texas A&M, lost 40-8,
SMU IN DENTON, won 14-7

Corkey coached 22 games against Big 8 and SWC schools during his tenure. Yes, he won only five of them...but, he won them with I-AA squads versus I-A squads. Average score was, 26-16. I mean, can you imagine being within 10 points of a Big 12 school today? It wouldn't happen.

Darrell Dickey did it a few times...and, we hate him? The guy beat Texas Tech and Baylor, and hung with TCU and Arizona on the road! And, we hate him?

Sh*t.

That was a critical time in our football program's history, the late 80s. So, what did we do? Let Nelson go...and hire a high school coach. And people complain about Villarreal?

At that point, we were even talent-wise with the middle to lower rungs of the Big 8 and SWC, and we did nothing in the way of keeping a good coach, expanding and upgrading facilities, or much else. We never cashed in on the momentum of those late 80s squads that went toe-to-toe with SWC and Big 8 schools.

What could have been if we'd recognized, as K-State did then, that there was an arms race on the horizon. K-State, of course, always saw Oklahoma and Nebraska upgrading. I guess our leaders and donors at the time just accepted where we were.

We were all students back then, many of us, mid-80s to mid-90s. It's just a real uphill climb for us now as pricey as the whole thing has gotten.

Also, young Eagles - strictly UNT alumni and current students, it is insulting to the older generation of players when you say we've never been competitive. That's not true. It's a damned lie. Guys like Scott Davis, Rex Johnson, Lance White, Scott Bowles, Byron Gross, Marcus Camper...you tell those guys who beat I-A SWC and Big 8 schools on the road as I-AAs that they weren't competitive, okay?

Also, young Eagles, tell 60s and 70s I-A and NFL stars like Joe Greene, J.T. Smith, Cedric Hardeman, Spider Lockhart, Abner Haynes, Barry Moore, Steve Ramsey, Willie Parker, John Love, and so on, how uncompetitive the were in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.

You completely disregard Odus Mitchell's 122-85-9 record from 1946 to 1966 and his ten conference championships, two others from Rod Rust and Hayden Fry. And, you ignore Corky Nelson's conference title and multiple appearances in the I-A playoffs.

This school did have an excellent football history. It was not screwed up by RV...it was screwed up long before RV. I am sorry that you younger Eagles didn't experience much winning. There was a fleeting glimpse of the old under Darrell Dickey...but, the younger Eagles hate him, so...best of luck to Coach Littrell in educating the young Eagles on this program's history.

People complain about RV because he never tried to be anything better than a bottom rung FBS program, which is what UNT was when he got here and is after 15 years of torture under his "leadership."

So, in essence, a terrible UNT administration found their perfect mate in Rick Villarreal, a chain of events that led to the worst FBS athletic program in America.

Why do you think he was allowed to collect a check for 15 years?

Lets just hope the UNT administration has changed for the better. If they haven't, we will see Wren Baker leave after a year or two for an Asst AD job with a P5.

Edited August 1, 2016 by UNT90

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · August 1, 2016

Um...guys, my point was as an I-AA, we were, under Corky Nelson, competing with I-A schools. The easiest/cheapest time to upgrade and move up would have been then.

During that time period, the originial arms race began in college football, beginning with OU and Georgia suing the NCAA over broadcasting rights in 1984 and winning. Shotly thereafter:

-Notre Dame NCAA deal in 1991
-Bowl coalition in 1992

The SEC, Big 8, SWC, ACC, Big East, and Notre Dame where the football schools in the coalition; the bowls were the Orange, Sugar, Cotton, Fiesta, Gator, and Sun. Big Ten and Pac-10 stuck with its traditional Rose Bowl agreement.

Before and during this time period, the biggest - and, smarter - schools began pouring money (from their new TV dollars...thanks again to OU and Georgia) into facilties upgrades.

What did we do? Despite being competitive with Big 8 and SWC schools, we let Corky Nelson walk, hired a high school coach, and stuck with I-AA status...and facilities.

By the time was got someone to finance the deal to upgrade Fouts to the then 30,000 seat requirement by the NCAA, and jumped back to I-A status, we were already way behind. Even after that:

-our donors didn't pour in cash.
-SWC imploded, four schools joined the Big 8 to form the Big 12
-bowl coalition begat the BCS

Then, money was pouring into BCS conferences and their schools, and they continued the arms race upward. Non-BCS schools...some floundered, some fight. We floundered. Yes, even before RV took over, we were floundering.

Many of you bitch and complain. Open your wallets the way other programs did - even as they were losing (TCU) or at lower levels (Boise State) or non-existent (South Florida). Complaining is free.

Now, you have no excuse. You claim to like the new coach and AD...so, give them your money. If not, shut up and be happy with your new stadium. Life doesn't (or shouldn't ) revolve around college athletics.

Edited August 2, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

Matt from A700 · August 1, 2016

If SMU were to go to the Big 12, at least we could say we have hosted a P5 in Apogee. Assuming they didn't back out of the series.

Rudy · August 1, 2016

Apparently Mike Rawlings is trying to make a case for $mut to be in the Big 12. Although it's nice to have a mayor that actually cares, someone should remind him that University Park is not Dallas.

Looking at the comments on Facebook, their fans truly are delusional.