Orlando Terrorist Attack

[CMJ]

It's also come out that he was a closeted gay male.  He'd gone to that club a few times over the last year and was on gay dating websites.  So instead of embracing his sexuality, went very much into denial, became a radical Islamist, and to prove himself to god killed gays.

Edited June 14, 2016 by CMJ

[FirefightnRick]

3 minutes ago, CMJ said:

It's also come out that he was a closeted gay male.  He'd gone to that club a few times over the last year and was on gay dating websites.  So instead of embracing his sexuality, went very much into denial, became a radical Islamist, and to prove himself to god killed gays.

He could have simply been planning his crime by visiting websites, services and nightclubs?

Has it been confirmed he had explosives?

 

Rick

[eulessismore]

I commend UNTexas for starting the thread, and his simple heartfelt expression of sorrow.  I experienced considerable anxiety after hearing this on the way to choir practice and church, coming home afterwards to call my family members to determine that my nephew living in Orlando, a gay man, was not among those killed or injured in the attack.  This would have been almost too horrible to bear, what with his mother (my sister) having suffered a massive stroke about a month ago and being basically rendered immobile and without speech, to this point anyway.  As far as the political arguments made, really...

Still, as for the idea of the LGBT community getting in with Trump and the Republican Party over this, all I could think of was the old saying, "Politics makes for strange bedfellows".  And basically, as an Army veteran, one reason I see for not going on a tirade against Muslims in general is that I want those in predominantly Muslim countries carrying the fight to these monstrous forces, not young American men and women.  Sure, help them with air support, training, logistical support, communications, and most important, the kinds of weapons needed by those like the Kurdish fighters who have done much with little.  But send 30,000 troops?  To do what?

Edited June 14, 2016 by eulessismore

[Censored by Laurie]

10 hours ago, UNT90 said:

ISIS took credit. The murderer called 911 and swore allegiance to the ISIS leader by name. These are things Pres. Obama knew at the time. 

Do you need a map?

ISIS took credit well after the fact and his 911 call had been widely reported.

the murderer also previously swore allegiance to al Qaeda and Hezbollah. it's as if he were a die-hard Red Sox, Yankees and Mets fan all at the same time!!

the murderer has also reportedly frequented Pulse for as long as three years, would often get incredibly intoxicated and had a profile on a gay dating website. much like San Bernadino, these were known places, apparently of a stress-inducing nature.

had this been a(nother) white man with a gun the response would've been the worn-out "thoughts and prayers, but there's nothing we can do...yada-yada about mental health issues...let's pretend to care about gays for a week until the next shooting".

but oh...this dude said some vaguely muslim-y shit...YES! let's ignore the actual motivations and use this to fuel the xenophobia fire we've been stoking so diligently. Trump is right! ban all Muslims entering the country! 

oh...crap...but this guy was born in New York so Trump's proposed ban would've done fuck-all. so...ahh...I've got it! what if we enacted a law that required all Muslims to wear a distinguishing patch on their clothing. like a crescent moon...maybe in a bright color like yellow?

I have impeccable navigational skills...maybe double click your phone right now over to google maps before you crash.

[UNT90]

8 hours ago, eulessismore said:

I commend UNTexas for starting the thread, and his simple heartfelt expression of sorrow.  I experienced considerable anxiety after hearing this on the way to choir practice and church, coming home afterwards to call my family members to determine that my nephew living in Orlando, a gay man, was not among those killed or injured in the attack.  This would have been almost too horrible to bear, what with his mother (my sister) having suffered a massive stroke about a month ago and being basically rendered immobile and without speech, to this point anyway.  As far as the political arguments made, really...

Still, as for the idea of the LGBT community getting in with Trump and the Republican Party over this, all I could think of was the old saying, "Politics makes for strange bedfellows".  And basically, as an Army veteran, one reason I see for not going on a tirade against Muslims in general is that I want those in predominantly Muslim countries carrying the fight to these monstrous forces, not young American men and women.  Sure, help them with air support, training, logistical support, communications, and most important, the kinds of weapons needed by those like the Kurdish fighters who have done much with little.  But send 30,000 troops?  To do what?

Fight them there now or here later.  There aren't enough Turkish Kurds to take the fight to anyone. There isn't the will in Muslim countries to fight for themselves, much less fight the USA's fight for the USA, a country many of them hate, anyway.

This war wasn't ended by this President, it was prolonged. By at least a decade. He pulled troops out of Iraq prematurely and armed  factions of ISIS to fight Asad with the naive belief this would curry favor with them. Wrong.

He snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq with premature troop withdrawals to win political favor (the only thing that concerns him). 

You have a choice. Accept civilian casualties at home, accept this kind of attack in increasing doses, accept letting an identified entity that controls a large area of land and has an infrastructure commit an act of war on American citizens, OR take the fight to their homeland. You want to stick your head in the sand and hope it goes away? Be my guest, but it isn't happening. 

Give our troops a chance to do what they are trained to do. Fight the war there, not here. 

And for god's sake, stop importing possible terrorist from that god forsaken country.

32 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

ISIS took credit well after the fact and his 911 call had been widely reported.

the murderer also previously swore allegiance to al Qaeda and Hezbollah. it's as if he were a die-hard Red Sox, Yankees and Mets fan all at the same time!!

the murderer has also reportedly frequented Pulse for as long as three years, would often get incredibly intoxicated and had a profile on a gay dating website. much like San Bernadino, these were known places, apparently of a stress-inducing nature.

had this been a(nother) white man with a gun the response would've been the worn-out "thoughts and prayers, but there's nothing we can do...yada-yada about mental health issues...let's pretend to care about gays for a week until the next shooting".

but oh...this dude said some vaguely muslim-y shit...YES! let's ignore the actual motivations and use this to fuel the xenophobia fire we've been stoking so diligently. Trump is right! ban all Muslims entering the country! 

oh...crap...but this guy was born in New York so Trump's proposed ban would've done fuck-all. so...ahh...I've got it! what if we enacted a law that required all Muslims to wear a distinguishing patch on their clothing. like a crescent moon...maybe in a bright color like yellow?

I have impeccable navigational skills...maybe double click your phone right now over to google maps before you crash.

So stupid. ISIS doesn't take credit for shit they aren't involved in. The ISIS leader called for attacks on American soil during Ramadan. 

The 911 bombers went to titty bars the night before. So what? 

You want to imply some other motive than the motive clearly stated by both the shooter and ISIS. And you do that so you don't have to admit a hard truth to yourself. 

This is by my bad memory at least the third radical Islamist terror attack on US soil in President Obama's tenure, and the man can't even call it what it is, much less address it in a meaningful way. 

Worst, most dangerous foreign policy president in US history

Edited June 14, 2016 by UNT90

[UNT Five&Dime]

How do some of you live with so much hate in your hearts?

[UNT90]

1 minute ago, UNT Five&Dime said:

How do some of you live with so much hate in your hearts?

Are you asking the terrorist who want you dead? 

[UNT Five&Dime]

Quote

We can never obtain peace in the outer world until we make peace with ourselves.

- His Holiness The Dalai Lama

[Censored by Laurie]

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

So stupid. ISIS doesn't take credit for shit they aren't involved in. The ISIS leader called for attacks on American soil during Ramadan. 

The 911 bombers went to titty bars the night before. So what? 

You want to imply some other motive than the motive clearly stated by both the shooter and ISIS. And you do that so you don't have to admit a hard truth to yourself. 

This is by my bad memory at least the third radical Islamist terror attack on US soil in President Obama's tenure, and the man can't even call it what it is, much less address it in a meaningful way. 

Worst, most dangerous foreign policy president in US history

I'll sit with my feet up here for a while as the evidence continues to come out...I really am curious how long you'll cling to your narrative. 

for now, I'll say that from what has been released so far, ISIS looks to be just about as intimately involved in this attack as Jodie Foster was in Reagan's assassination attempt 

[UNT90]

1 minute ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I'll sit with my feet up here for a while as the evidence continues to come out...I really am curious how long you'll cling to your narrative. 

for now, I'll say that from what has been released so far, ISIS looks to be just about as intimately involved in this attack as Jodie Foster was in Reagan's assassination attempt 

Well, your just seeing what you want to see, then.

Lets see, should I believe the opinion of the hippy compound, or the opinion if multiple foreign policy experts addressing the situation and the FBI.

I mean, it's a tough choice.

 

9 hours ago, CMJ said:

It's also come out that he was a closeted gay male.  He'd gone to that club a few times over the last year and was on gay dating websites.  So instead of embracing his sexuality, went very much into denial, became a radical Islamist, and to prove himself to god killed gays.

This isn't accurate. It has come out that he frequented the bar, would drink alone and get drunk and belligerent before being asked to leave.

 

[CMJ]

46 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Well, your just seeing what you want to see, then.

Lets see, should I believe the opinion of the hippy compound, or the opinion if multiple foreign policy experts addressing the situation and the FBI.

I mean, it's a tough choice.

 

This isn't accurate. It has come out that he frequented the bar, would drink alone and get drunk and belligerent before being asked to leave.

 

He was on gay dating websites....that is accurate.

[UNT90]

8 minutes ago, CMJ said:

He was on gay dating websites....that is accurate.

Source?

[Quoner]

Dumb advice from some moron last year.

On 12/13/2015 at 9:03 AM, UNT90 said:

I doubt it. Let's hope people on here wait for all the information before jumping to the usual conclusions... 

Shut it until the investigation is complete and some facts are released.

12 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Source?

Everywhere?

[UNT90]

12 minutes ago, Quoner said:

Dumb advice from some moron last year.

 

Everywhere?

Great advice. To ignore the fact that the murderer told the call taker on a recorded police line that he has a sworn allegiance to the leader of ISIS, and called that POS "leader" by name is dishonest. CBL is attempting to change the narrative, which you will see a lot from liberals and President Obama in the coming days. 

As to "witness accounts," both of seeing the murderer inside the nightclub and on dating websites, I'd wait and see whether that is confirmed through video surveillance (at the club previously) or  through the suspect's computer analysis. As EVERYONE should have learned after Ferguson, witness testimony isn't always reliable. Some people will say anything to get their 15 minutes, others just may be mistaken about who they saw, either in person or on a website.

Is there a profile for the murderer still up on any gay dating website? Didn't see that mentioned in those links, just that "witnesses" say it is so.

Everyone should keep in mind that homosexual acts in the Muslim world are FAR from uncommon. Many times homosexual makes are sodomized immediately before execution by the very people executing them for being gay. It's one jacked up culture, that radical Islamist terrorist culture:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/06/the-secret-hypocritical-gay-world-of-isis.html

[Quoner]

57 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Great advice. To ignore the fact that the murderer told the call taker on a recorded police line that he has a sworn allegiance to the leader of ISIS, and called that POS "leader" by name is dishonest. CBL is attempting to change the narrative, which you will see a lot from liberals and President Obama in the coming days. 

As to "witness accounts," both of seeing the murderer inside the nightclub and on dating websites, I'd wait and see whether that is confirmed through video surveillance (at the club previously) or  through the suspect's computer analysis. As EVERYONE should have learned after Ferguson, witness testimony isn't always reliable. Some people will say anything to get their 15 minutes, others just may be mistaken about who they saw, either in person or on a website.

Is there a profile for the murderer still up on any gay dating website? Didn't see that mentioned in those links, just that "witnesses" say it is so.

Everyone should keep in mind that homosexual acts in the Muslim world are FAR from uncommon. Many times homosexual makes are sodomized immediately before execution by the very people executing them for being gay. It's one jacked up culture, that radical Islamist terrorist culture:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/01/06/the-secret-hypocritical-gay-world-of-isis.html

Or maybe the narrative is evolving and not complete yet, but you've reached the destination you want? I mean, what concrete, solid, case-closed evidence do you see in (picking one random link out of the Google results) here: http://www.businessinsider.com/omar-mateen-isis-operations-orlando-2016-6

Also, do you know how dating apps work? Much like when you hear a coworker is on Tinder, it's not as simple as just clicking grindr/unt90 from the world wide web. You have to be a member and geographicall close for a lot of them. If you have a log-in I can borrow, I'd be happy to search on your behalf. 

Agree with your last point for sure. 

[UNT90]

28 minutes ago, Quoner said:

Or maybe the narrative is evolving and not complete yet, but you've reached the destination you want? I mean, what concrete, solid, case-closed evidence do you see in (picking one random link out of the Google results) here: http://www.businessinsider.com/omar-mateen-isis-operations-orlando-2016-6

Also, do you know how dating apps work? Much like when you hear a coworker is on Tinder, it's not as simple as just clicking grindr/unt90 from the world wide web. You have to be a member and geographicall close for a lot of them. If you have a log-in I can borrow, I'd be happy to search on your behalf. 

Agree with your last point for sure. 

It seems some of these "witnesses" would be able to produce that dating app, as they are supposedly members.

Again, bad witness info is the bain of good police work. Also, the narrative changers will be out in full force, trying to distract from the murderer's stated reason and the very quick acceptance of responsibility by ISIS (which wouldn't happen unless they had knowledge of the attack before it occurred). We have seen that in this thread already by people ignoring hard evidence in favor of rumors to support what they want to believe.

Surely one of these witnesses knows how to screen shot the dating page, right? Jeez, Quoner, you are so 2000s.... ?

Edited June 14, 2016 by UNT90

[FirefightnRick]

So after reading as much as I can it appears the Orlando club murderer did not have any explosives on him as the San Bernadino and Boston Marathon murderers did.  

Still, others in the future certainly will.

This is coming.....what then?

 

Rick

[Quoner]

12 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

It seems some of these "witnesses" would be able to produce that dating app, as they are supposedly members.

Again, bad witness info is the bain of good police work. Also, the narrative changers will be out in full force, trying to distract from the murderer's stated reason and the very quick acceptance of responsibility by ISIS (which wouldn't happen unless they had knowledge of the attack before it occurred). We have seen that in this thread already by people ignoring hard evidence in favor of rumors to support what they want to believe.

Surely one of these witnesses knows how to screen shot the dating page, right? Jeez, Quoner, you are so 2000s.... ?

Doesn't have a screenshot, but does this link help with supporting evidence? http://abcnews.go.com/US/witnesses-orlando-shooter-regular-gay-clubs/story?id=39839464

Quote

 

Employees and patrons at Pulse, the site of the deadly shooting, told ABC News overnight Mateen came in the bar “on a regular basis.”

Chris Callen, a performer at the club, said Mateen “didn’t seem homophobic to me.”

“He seemed really warm,” Callen said. “I don’t get the terrorist part of it.”

"He would try to meet people and try to bump up against people and put his arm around and maybe try to dance with them or something because that's what everybody tries to do,” Van Horn said.

Another Florida man, Kevin West, told ABC News’ Houston affiliate KTRK that he was contacted by Mateen on a gay dating app.

“When he first contacted me, he was asking... what clubs are popping and things of that sort, and what are good places to go,” West said.

The purported behavior would appear severely at odds with how Mateen said he felt about gay people, according to his ex-wife, who was married to Mateen briefly in 2009.

“I started noticing in his emotional instability, he would express his anger towards [a] certain culture, homosexuality, because in… Islamic culture, it is really not tolerated, homosexuality, and I know at the time he was trying to get his life straight and follow his faith. I guess that created some confusion between that, and there was definitely moments that he would express his intolerance to homosexuals.”

 

 

[UNT90]

4 minutes ago, Quoner said:

Doesn't have a screenshot, but does this link help with supporting evidence? http://abcnews.go.com/US/witnesses-orlando-shooter-regular-gay-clubs/story?id=39839464

 

Not really. He could have been selecting and scouting a target. Again, if this guy has messages with the murderer, he should be able to screen shot those and give them to the news outlets. Also, the news outlets would have people in Orlando signing up and scouring the websites to be the first to find his profile. Maybe it's already been pulled down (doubtful).

[Quoner]

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

Not really. He could have been selecting and scouting a target. Again, if this guy has messages with the murderer, he should be able to screen shot those and give them to the news outlets. Also, the news outlets would have people in Orlando signing up and scouring the websites to be the first to find his profile. Maybe it's already been pulled down (doubtful).

Agree - and I am hoping stuff gets unearthed. 

Some of my friends and I send each other stupid snapchats and have conversations in the messenger. If pressed, I have no idea how to recover or display those messages. I've never used a dating app because I just missed that part of the world, but I know for the most part friends who do cannot show me people they saw pics of previously. I have no idea how grindr, beefmaster or whatever hundreds of others are out there work and neither do you. I'm not telling you you are right or wrong, I'm just amazed you've been able to narrow the scope to suit your needs and interests, then scold and demonize anyone else who wants to measure the same. 

Right now, the scales seem untipped between ISIS mastermind plot master & closeted gay dude who couldn't reconcile Islan, his homosexuality and everything else until he exploded. Both options suck and there's no ribbon or prize for being the most right about either one. 

[Army of Dad]

38 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

It seems some of these "witnesses" would be able to produce that dating app, as they are supposedly members.

Again, bad witness info is the bain of good police work. Also, the narrative changers will be out in full force, trying to distract from the murderer's stated reason and the very quick acceptance of responsibility by ISIS (which wouldn't happen unless they had knowledge of the attack before it occurred). We have seen that in this thread already by people ignoring hard evidence in favor of rumors to support what they want to believe.

Surely one of these witnesses knows how to screen shot the dating page, right? Jeez, Quoner, you are so 2000s.... ?

I'm of the opinion that ISIS would take credit quickly regardless if they knew about the plot ahead of time or not. It is likely to be perceived as a benefit to them. They have called for these kinds of attacks and don't have any requirements to join up ahead of time outside of pledging allegiance to them.

I don't know if the shooter was a closet gay that couldn't handle the dichotomy or just the usual grade of islamofacist douche. I do think it funny that ISIS might have touted this guy as one of theirs and it turns out he might be gay.

It is possible his purported gay activities were targeting Intel gathering activities and not a genuine gay lifestyle. This is an interesting twist to a awful tale.

[UNT90]

43 minutes ago, Quoner said:

Agree - and I am hoping stuff gets unearthed. 

Some of my friends and I send each other stupid snapchats and have conversations in the messenger. If pressed, I have no idea how to recover or display those messages. I've never used a dating app because I just missed that part of the world, but I know for the most part friends who do cannot show me people they saw pics of previously. I have no idea how grindr, beefmaster or whatever hundreds of others are out there work and neither do you. I'm not telling you you are right or wrong, I'm just amazed you've been able to narrow the scope to suit your needs and interests, then scold and demonize anyone else who wants to measure the same. 

Right now, the scales seem untipped between ISIS mastermind plot master & closeted gay dude who couldn't reconcile Islan, his homosexuality and everything else until he exploded. Both options suck and there's no ribbon or prize for being the most right about either one. 

One is an attack on American citizens on Anerican soil by a foreign "country." 

That's the point you and others are avoiding, either consciously or subconsciously. The early evidence weighs heavily on this side of the scale. 

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by UNT90

[Quoner]

1 minute ago, UNT90 said:

One is an attack on American citizens on Anerican soil by a foreign "country." 

That's the point you and others are avoiding, either consciously or subconsciously. The early evidence weighs heavily on this side of the scale. 

 

You're assuming it. No one is avoiding it - they are questioning whether that is really the case as they arrange all the evidence, which, I guess using your terms, seems to be getting less heavy by the hour.

[UNT90]

26 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

I'm of the opinion that ISIS would take credit quickly regardless if they knew about the plot ahead of time or not. It is likely to be perceived as a benefit to them. They have called for these kinds of attacks and don't have any requirements to join up ahead of time outside of pledging allegiance to them.

I don't know if the shooter was a closet gay that couldn't handle the dichotomy or just the usual grade of islamofacist douche. I do think it funny that ISIS might have touted this guy as one of theirs and it turns out he might be gay.

It is possible his purported gay activities were targeting Intel gathering activities and not a genuine gay lifestyle. This is an interesting twist to a awful tale.

The fact that the shooter may be a closet gay is exactly why ISIS wouldn't claim responsibility if they didn't have a hand in it (even if that hand is simply Internet and email contact with the murderer encouraging the attack). Too many ways to prove they are lying, and they know this. 

When has ISIS ever claimed responsibility for something they weren't responsible for? I believe the answer is they haven't. Also, they claimed responsibility within hours of the attack when a lot wasn't known. If they were lying, this is a pretty stupid thing to do. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

I don't think the president had any idea about ISIS and this guy.  In fact, I don't think the guy knew he was ISIS until he got on the phone and started spouting off to the police.

My problem isn't with Obama, anymore than I had a problem with Bush in fighting terrorism or Clinton, or Bush I, or Reagan.  The problem is, the terrorist are constantly evolving.  Each president has faced an evolving part of it. 

Terrorists will now accept all applicants, if you will, without having to have them fly to Afghanistan or Syria or whatever godforsaken sh*thole country to be "trained" face-to-face.  It's good enough that the guy is in Belgium or France or England or Florida - or wherever - and willing to kill in the name of their twisted version of jihad.

My only problem here is, the FBI did suspect the guy, actively interviewed him, but he somehow slipped through. 

The question then is not, how much is this president doing or that president?  The question is, are the lawmakers at the national level, and the agencies they fund, accepting the new reality of the sort of rent-a-terrorist scheme which ISIS now employs?

I don't think they are.  And, to me, that's not all on a president.  A president can only do so much with information he is getting from the agencies.  And, the agencies can only do what the current laws allow them to do.

This guy was an American citizen.  There was a certain point at which the FBI had to cut off the investigation.  Whatever law that is surely needs to be changed. 

But, you can't blame Obama...or Bush, or Clinton, or Bush I, or Reagan...for that.  It's up the agencies to make known to the legislature what they need on the ground for their investigations.  Then, for the legislature to take care of the laws in order to give the agencies the tools it needs to shut down these potential homegrown rent-a-terrorists.

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox