QB Question and Opinions

GreenTexan13 · June 7, 2016

I figured I'd start a new thread, instead of hijack another with this question...

But why does QB height matter so much? I get that he has to be able to throw over the waving hands of the defensive line in front of him. But when are we going to go with that QB that can maneuver in the pocket?, Run around the impeding attack?, throw further than 10 yards?... (This is all stemming from the Shanbour discussion about his height, for me).

Edited June 7, 2016 by GreenTexan13

NorthTexan95 · June 7, 2016

Two things ... being able to see over the offensive line easier ... usually with height you also have the body to better withstand blows from the defense.

MGNation92 · June 7, 2016

If you're intelligent(which I believe Shanbour is) you can be on the shorter side and learn to be successful. Here are a few successful shorter QB's:

Fran Tarkenton, Drew Brees, YA Tittle, Joe Theismann, Doug Flutie, Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, Michael Vick, Troy Smith(college only), Russell Wilson, Johnny Manziel(college only), Seneca Wallace, and the list goes on.

Vito and others are pushing the narrative of Allen, Alabama, 6'3 therefore he must be our savior. I think it's fair to say Shanbour kicked Morris' ass in the spring game and a lot of people don't want to admit that because Morris is THE GUY.

give me accuracy, quick release, and ability to run all day. I don't think height and a slightly better arm justify him being preseason 1st team all-cusa as some have already crowned

Edited June 7, 2016 by MGNation92

DeepGreen · June 7, 2016

Where did Shanbour come from? Was he highly rated out of HS?

MeanGreen13 · June 7, 2016

Shanbour was not highly touted because he played private school ball but he was a nationally recognized player on that level if memory serves me rightly. I think he went to a prep school after high school as well.

foutsrouts · June 7, 2016

24 minutes ago, NorthTexan95 said:

Two things ... being able to see over the offensive line easier ... usually with height you also have the body to better withstand blows from the defense.

But with height well over 6 feet you are often not as good at avoiding those blows. Generalizing of course.

TreeFiddy · June 7, 2016

2 minutes ago, DeepGreen said:

Where did Shanbour come from? Was he highly rated out of HS?

He is basically Mason Fine from 3 years ago. He was a pretty heralded (not as much as Fine) QB from one of the private OK schools (Heritage Hall). He threw for bunches or yards and TDs. He had a scholarship to Colorado, but there was a coaching change at some point before he signed and the new staff did not honor the scholarship. He had smaller school offer(s) and was supposedly in the hunt at schools like Indiana (Littrell?), ECU, and Ivy League.

Eventually, he ended up as a preferred walk on at OSU. I believe that must have been when he injured his toe and ended up transferring to UNT where he sat out 2014 nursing his foot and then in 2015 appears he just didn't crack the 3 deep.

Much like Fine, I believe his size limited the number of offers out of HS.

http://newsok.com/article/3746677

UNTLifer · June 7, 2016

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/138157/quinn-shanbour

http://www.hudl.com/athlete/1559928/quinn-shanbour

TreeFiddy · June 7, 2016

3 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/138157/quinn-shanbour

http://www.hudl.com/athlete/1559928/quinn-shanbour

I got a giggle out of going to the ESPN link. If you click on the tab that says 'test results' it shows QS results but also shows best/worst at the QB category that year. It shows the worst 40 time was 27.8 seconds and the worst vertical was 4.31 inches. Funny.

NorthTexan95 · June 7, 2016

34 minutes ago, foutsrouts said:

But with height well over 6 feet you are often not as good at avoiding those blows. Generalizing of course.

All depends on the body build. Vince Young was huge but very hard to catch. But a 6'5" 230 lbs quarterback will better handle blows than a 6'0" 200 lbs player.

What comes to my mind is Derek Thompson vs Riley Dodge. Riley was much faster and quicker but ended his career being carted off the field.

Ben Gooding · June 7, 2016

Helps see the field better and read defenses post snap.

In a premedicated, gimmicky type of offense kind of how the air raid is, QB height is not all that important.

foutsrouts · June 7, 2016

3 minutes ago, NorthTexan95 said:

All depends on the body build. Vince Young was huge but very hard to catch. But a 6'5" 230 lbs quarterback will better handle blows than a 6'0" 200 lbs player.

What comes to my mind is Derek Thompson vs Riley Dodge. Riley was much faster and quicker but ended his career being carted off the field.

Drew Brees has been one of the most durable QB's in the NFL, so we could go on and on with comparisons. Riley tended to scramble more than was healthy for him. It's going to vary, but taller and less slippery guys often make good targets.

Aldo · June 7, 2016

There so many different directions to take with this discussion as injury, running ability, and height vs talent are all fun topics.

If the QB is a good QB, lack of height won't make them less talented. (I'm not going to point at Flutie or Brees or Wilson or Manziel, as those are exceptional quarterbacks). We're talking CUSA-level competition here.

Lack of height won't make them more injury prone. Injury prone-ness will vary from individual to individual.

Also, Shanbour came out, what, 20-30 pounds heavier from HS than Fine? We can't expect Fine to gain 20-30 pounds. Maybe 10-15.

I'm ok with Fine at 5'10" and 180-190 pounds in CUSA. I'm ok with Shanbour at 6' (or whatever) and 200-210lbs.

Fine and Shanbour are decent keep-the-play-alive scramblers, while Morris has deceptive straight line speed for a guy his size. Morris isn't Manning or Brady where you're hitting R2 in Madden '13 and you're yelling at the TV "Run! RUN!". He can make a guy miss, though I'd rather him slide.

HoustonEagle · June 7, 2016

17 minutes ago, Aldo said:

There so many different directions to take with this discussion as injury, running ability, and height vs talent are all fun topics.

If the QB is a good QB, lack of height won't make them less talented. (I'm not going to point at Flutie or Brees or Wilson or Manziel, as those are exceptional quarterbacks). We're talking CUSA-level competition here.

Lack of height won't make them more injury prone. Injury prone-ness will vary from individual to individual.

Also, Shanbour came out, what, 20-30 pounds heavier from HS than Fine? We can't expect Fine to gain 20-30 pounds. Maybe 10-15.

I'm ok with Fine at 5'10" and 180-190 pounds in CUSA. I'm ok with Shanbour at 6' (or whatever) and 200-210lbs.

Fine and Shanbour are decent keep-the-play-alive scramblers, while Morris has deceptive straight line speed for a guy his size. Morris isn't Manning or Brady where you're hitting R2 in Madden '13 and you're yelling at the TV "Run! RUN!". He can make a guy miss, though I'd rather him slide.

I don't think Fine will ever play QB here. But he might turn into one hell of a receiver.

Edited June 7, 2016 by HoustonEagle

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · June 7, 2016

1 hour ago, DeepGreen said:

Where did Shanbour come from? Was he highly rated out of HS?

No FBS offers: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/138157/quinn-shanbour

Oklahoma prep at a 3A school...Oklahoma has classifications go up to 6A. Shanbour has always been needle-in-the-haystack. Nice kid, I'm sure. Likely could have competed on a DII roster. Has chosen to sit on FBS benches here and at Oklahoma State.

If he was Baker Mayfield-like, he'd have caught Mike Gundy's eye at OSU the way Mayfield caught Kingsbury's at Tech. In short (no pun intended), he's been to two schools - one P5, one G5 - and, hasn't been able to crack the top two spots.

Just being short doesn't automatically make you Doug Flutie. Those comparisons are stupid because for every Flutie there are thousands upon thousands of short QBs who can't do what he did.

Please, stop.

MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF · June 7, 2016

1 hour ago, NorthTexan95 said:

All depends on the body build. Vince Young was huge but very hard to catch. But a 6'5" 230 lbs quarterback will better handle blows than a 6'0" 200 lbs player.

What comes to my mind is Derek Thompson vs Riley Dodge. Riley was much faster and quicker but ended his career being carted off the field.

...both here and at McNeese State.

Again, just because you are short, doesn't mean you are Doug Flutie. If Shanbour was Flutie-like, someone at Oklahoma State would have seen it.

The thing is, you have to get me to believe that a kid five years out of high school suddenly becomes ready to play quarterback at the FBS level - even the lowly G5 FBS level - after years and years on the bench. Cut the Flutie crap and show me and example of that. It's not there.

The problem with the mass of UNT fans appears to be one of two things, maybe both:
(1) It's been so long since they've seen consistent quarterback play, they've forgotten what it looks like, or
(2) They are so desperate for someone - anyone! - to do well at quarterback that they let their common sense drift into fantasyland.

MeanGreenTexan · June 7, 2016

10 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

No FBS offers: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/138157/quinn-shanbour

Oklahoma prep at a 3A school...Oklahoma has classifications go up to 6A. Shanbour has always been needle-in-the-haystack. Nice kid, I'm sure. Likely could have competed on a DII roster. Has chosen to sit on FBS benches here and at Oklahoma State.

If he was Baker Mayfield-like, he'd have caught Mike Gundy's eye at OSU the way Mayfield caught Kingsbury's at Tech. In short (no pun intended), he's been to two schools - one P5, one G5 - and, hasn't been able to crack the top two spots.

Just being short doesn't automatically make you Doug Flutie. Those comparisons are stupid because for every Flutie there are thousands upon thousands of short QBs who can't do what he did.

Please, stop.

You're right. Obviously if you're short and you're NOT Doug Flutie, you must be Drew Brees. There's really only two options.

baberuthbomber8 · June 7, 2016

2 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

If you're intelligent(which I believe Shanbour is) you can be on the shorter side and learn to be successful. Here are a few successful shorter QB's:

Fran Tarkenton, Drew Brees, YA Tittle, Joe Theismann, Doug Flutie, Sonny Jurgensen, Len Dawson, Michael Vick, Troy Smith(college only), Russell Wilson, Johnny Manziel(college only), Seneca Wallace, and the list goes on.

Vito and others are pushing the narrative of Allen, Alabama, 6'3 therefore he must be our savior. I think it's fair to say Shanbour kicked Morris' ass in the spring game and a lot of people don't want to admit that because Morris is THE GUY.

give me accuracy, quick release, and ability to run all day. I don't think height and a slightly better arm justify him being preseason 1st team all-cusa as some have already crowned

Morris has the ability to be a total 180 from last years QBs. Morris also is a grad-transfer that wanted playing time, and if we wanna keep bringing in talent kids, we have to show them they can come here and play. I think Morris could help us a lot, but to counter your Shanbour playing so great and everything... Last year he didn't even get a snap in a season that was 1-11.... If he couldn't play last year, even when the season was completely lost it may say what coaches thought of him...

Also, at the spring game.. Morris I believe was going up mostly against our 1st D, while Shanbour went up against the 2nd... But I'm sure the Staff is not worried about what Vito writes or what we post here, they will pick the right guy for us.

MGNation92 · June 7, 2016

Just now, baberuthbomber8 said:

Morris has the ability to be a total 180 from last years QBs. Morris also is a grad-transfer that wanted playing time, and if we wanna keep bringing in talent kids, we have to show them they can come here and play. I think Morris could help us a lot, but to counter your Shanbour playing so great and everything... Last year he didn't even get a snap in a season that was 1-11.... If he couldn't play last year, even when the season was completely lost it may say what coaches thought of him...

Also, at the spring game.. Morris I believe was going up mostly against our 1st D, while Shanbour went up against the 2nd... But I'm sure the Staff is not worried about what Vito writes or what we post here, they will pick the right guy for us.

Right, coming from a coaching staff that was known for developing and evaluating talent. The same staff that thought Josh Greer was a viable starter

Morris also had the 1st team offense and Shanbour had the 2nd team offense. Apples to apples

UNTLifer · June 7, 2016

Shanbour was injured last year.

baberuthbomber8 · June 7, 2016

You have to admit, our 1st Offense isn't much better then our 2nd Offense.. along with them throwing the same WRs since we were so short... Give me the guy with potential to turn the program around(Morris) instead of the kid that has had multiple chances to start on a losing team...

We can go back and forth about how neither started, the differences are very apparent.. 1 was on scholarship to BAMA and won multiple championships, the other a walk-on at 2 programs... and yet to earn a scholarship..

With Shanbour being injuried, then that explains why he didn't get a look.. But again.. I'm not sure if he missed the full-year or part or what? if he was able to play part that is a worry, and you can blame Mac and them for not playing him.. But he didn't stand out or force their hand.. If he missed the whole year, then Morris and Shan both came in with a clean slate(which even then Shan had a hand up on morris since he had played with most these guys before), and Morris still got the first snap of the year...

This was about size, but for every 1 Brees or Flute they have 10 misses just as we they have misses with bigger QBs like J.Russell with Oakland and Ryan Leaf... The only thing that matters is production from the QBs and the staff will figure out who is best, so stop saying Shan has it stacked against him because they have played on par with each other...

GrandGreen · June 7, 2016

2 hours ago, NorthTexan95 said:

All depends on the body build. Vince Young was huge but very hard to catch. But a 6'5" 230 lbs quarterback will better handle blows than a 6'0" 200 lbs player.

What comes to my mind is Derek Thompson vs Riley Dodge. Riley was much faster and quicker but ended his career being carted off the field.

That had a lot to do with the offensive line.

Aldo · June 7, 2016

21 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Shanbour was injured last year.

Yes Shanbour had severe turf toe that lasted over a year.

Cr1028 · June 7, 2016

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

No FBS offers: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/138157/quinn-shanbour

Oklahoma prep at a 3A school...Oklahoma has classifications go up to 6A. Shanbour has always been needle-in-the-haystack. Nice kid, I'm sure. Likely could have competed on a DII roster. Has chosen to sit on FBS benches here and at Oklahoma State.

If he was Baker Mayfield-like, he'd have caught Mike Gundy's eye at OSU the way Mayfield caught Kingsbury's at Tech. In short (no pun intended), he's been to two schools - one P5, one G5 - and, hasn't been able to crack the top two spots.

Just being short doesn't automatically make you Doug Flutie. Those comparisons are stupid because for every Flutie there are thousands upon thousands of short QBs who can't do what he did.

Please, stop.

Quote

In fact, Carter summed up the process Mayfield endured to end up at Texas Tech with two words: bad luck.

He received offers from Washington State after his junior year, but before he could visit the Cougars accepted a commitment from another quarterback. Same thing happened with Rice.

“The rest of that spring, he had probably 20 to 25 big-time Division I programs looking at him and coming back to look again,” Carter said. “For whatever reason, the big guys just didn’t pull the trigger after that.”

Mayfield had offers from FAU and New Mexico but put all his hopes on landing an offer from TCU. That never came, and the Frogs ended up signing Temple (Texas) quarterback Zach Allen. So Mayfield looked into his options as a walk-on.

The decision, Carter said, came down to Texas Tech or Texas. He chose the Red Raiders because of his relationship with Eric Morris, who left Washington State to join Kingsbury’s staff, and the fact that Tech’s offense better resembled what he ran at Lake Travis.

link

Kingsbury chose him over another true freshman (yes a scholarship freshman, but a true freshman nonetheless) because the real starter was out with a back injury. Mayfield had a nice freshman season of beating up on bad teams. Each time he played a legitimate team, he stunk up the joint. OU was the best thing that could've happened to that kid. He wasn't a kid that went out on heart and determination to prove he needed a scholarship, he is a kid that thought he was better than what the coaches thought. He gambled on TCU and lost.

Quote

Shanbour gives the Cowboys at least five quarterbacks for spring practice, with Clint Chelf, Wes Lunt, J.W. Walsh and Daxx Garman. Jase Chilcoat and Cody Peterson were also with the team in the fall and could remain.

Shanbour however, would've had to go through somewhat of a rivals murderer's row of quarterbacks. Whereas Baker had to beat out a true-freshman 21st ranked pro-style qb. Shanbour would've had to beat out a senior 34th ranked dual-threat qb, a sophomore 7th ranked pro-style quarterback, a junior 4th ranked dual-threat qb, Arizona transfer Daxx Garman, and possibly juco transfer Cody Peterson and walkon Jase Chilcoat.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Cr1028

Cr1028 · June 7, 2016

3 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/138157/quinn-shanbour

http://www.hudl.com/athlete/1559928/quinn-shanbour

There is no way that kid runs as slow as a 5.04 40 yard dash. No way. His hudl highlight show him running the ball like a tailback. I like the fight. Seems tough enough to take the hits to me.

1 hour ago, MGNation92 said:

Right, coming from a coaching staff that was known for developing and evaluating talent. The same staff that thought Josh Greer was a viable starter

Morris also had the 1st team offense and Shanbour had the 2nd team offense. Apples to apples

Don't forget the 2nd team defense that Vito mentioned had heralded Bryce English right in the middle of it.

1 hour ago, baberuthbomber8 said:

You have to admit, our 1st Offense isn't much better then our 2nd Offense.. along with them throwing the same WRs since we were so short... Give me the guy with potential to turn the program around(Morris) instead of the kid that has had multiple chances to start on a losing team...

You talking about me again?