Copa America?

[meanJewGreen]

Anyone gonna be watching the Copa America? 

[Rudy]

I forgot. When does it start?

[MeanGreenHoops]

On 6/3/2016 at 8:24 AM, meanJewGreen said:

Anyone gonna be watching the Copa America? 

I've been watching. Kind of forgot this forum exists.

Here's the lineup I'd like to see tomorrow.

                           Guzan

Yedlin - Cameron - Brooks - Castillo

Zusi  - Bradley - Nagbe - Johnson

Dempsey - Wood

Everyone in a position they play for their club. Putting our best players in their best positions. And getting Nagbe on the field.

I struggled on Zardes or Wood, and also Zusi or not. Nut this at least puts Dempsey (our biggest time player) in his best position.

[Mean Green Matt]

Important game tonight for the USA. Win or draw should be good enough to get through and take our chances against Brazil in the quarterfinals. 

[Army of Dad]

On June 11, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Mean Green Matt said:

Important game tonight for the USA. Win or draw should be good enough to get through and take our chances against Brazil in the quarterfinals. 

Or not play Brazil just yet. We get Equador instead.

eta: won't be playing Brazil this tournament...

Edited June 13, 2016 by Army of Dad

[Mean Green Matt]

On June 12, 2016 at 8:31 PM, Army of Dad said:

Or not play Brazil just yet. We get Equador instead.

eta: won't be playing Brazil this tournament...

Venezuela joins us on the top side of the bracket. Expect their matchup to be Argentina. It only gets tougher from here. 

[Mean Green Matt]

So...this is still going. Go USA!

[Army of Dad]

I.

I believe.

eta:

ugh, wondo has been awful, Bradley wasteful with the ball and it looks like the US defensive plan is to whack the ball away at every opportunity...

Edited June 22, 2016 by Army of Dad

[Mean Green Matt]

3 hours ago, Army of Dad said:

I.

I believe.

eta:

ugh, wondo has been awful, Bradley wasteful with the ball and it looks like the US defensive plan is to whack the ball away at every opportunity...

With regard to Wondo, I cannot believe people still think he is an international caliber player. 

[Censored by Laurie]

frustrating. not the loss so much, but the lack of initiative and overly-conservative plan and line-up from Klinnsman. 

Wondo may be a great locker-room presence...so make him an assistant, because he doesn't belong on that field. Beckerman is just too slow at this point for a team with the pace of Argentina (Lavezzi just ghosted right by him for that first goal) 

there were so many better options in how to set this team up both to be more competitive and to actually show trust in young players...4-4-2 with Nagbe-Bradley-Kitchen-Pulisic in midfield...4-3-3 with Nagbe-Bradley-Zusi in midfield...bradley sitting and Nagbe/Zusi providing energy and industry box-to-box. instead JK set up in the exact same way everyone knew he would...including the Argentinian coach...with like-for-like replacements, all three of a lower quality of who they replaced. 

the team probably needed a good ass-kicking after some good fortune to reach the semis...I'd just prefer it grow and learn as a squad from the ass-kicking. we'll see if JK shows any bit of courage in the third place game

 

[Censored by Laurie]

I posted this a few months ago after the Mexico loss...figured it could stand an update

my way too early 2018 world cup roster

Goalkeepers (3) - Tim Howard, Brad Guzan, Zack Steffan - I think Howard still has enough in the tank for one more cycle, and if he does both in terms of leadership and ability he has far greater quality than Guzan or anyone else in the set-up

Central Defense (4) - John Anthony Brooks, Matt Miazaga, Geoff Cameron, Cameron Carter-Vickers either Matt Besler or Omar Gonzalez - modern football requires center-halfs to be as athletic as they are imposing...this group, save for Cameron, would all certainly need to make great strides in terms of positioning and awareness, but with Miazaga already a regular for a top MLS side at 21 and Brooks seeing regular time in the Bundisliga the potential for growth in those two is likely. CCV might be a stretch...he needs some loan moves away from Spurs academy. CCV may not quite be developed as a trusted full international in 2 years...and a steady, veteran presence is probably preferred. Omar has done well with his move to Mexico 

Wide Defense (4 3) - DeAndre Yedlin, Fabian Johnson Brandon Vincent, Ashton Gotz, Johnathon Spector Jorge Villafana - such a dearth of options here...Yedlin should be a regular FB by 2018...Gotz is my hopeful next dual-citi swithch...Spector finally lives up to his potential. left-back is an absolute desert right now. get Villafana in the set-up and hopefully Vincent continues some good development at MLS. Cameron's ability to play RB and Johnson's ability to come back from midfield (where he belongs) means you should need not to carry 4 fullbacks 

Central Midfield (5) - Danny Williams, Michael Bradley, Benny Feilhaber Darlington Nagbe Gedion Zelalem Alejandro Bedoya, Fatai Alashe - Williams and Alashe ascend and hopefully elevate the holding thrones of Jones and Beckerman...Bradley is still integral, from a deeper role...Feilhaber forces his way back into the set up...Zelalem has the range of passing and touch needed to elevate the US profile, though he'll really only get to shine come 2022. Nagbe has been a revelation since moving centrally and Bedoya had the best season of his career...Zelalem, for all his ability his development has stalled and I should probably just give up on the notion Feilhaber can make his way back into the set up

Wide Midfield/Wingers (4) - Jordan Morris, Jerome Keiswetter Fabian Johnson, Joe Gyau, Ethan Finlay Christian Pulisic- totally revamped wings...with actual wingers. Morris can tuck in as a second striker as well...Keiswetter was the US's best player during Olympic qualification and if Gyau makes it back from injury those two have both power and pace...Finlay has had a brilliant year in MLS and adds a bit of craft and guile to the wing. Johnson is a midfielder and Pulisic a huge part of the future

Strikers (3 4) - Jozy Altidore, Aron Johansson, Jordan Siebatcheu, Bobby Wood - for all of Jozy's faults, he's still the best option here...Johansson is unquestionably talented, but needs to find his niche in the national set-up...Siebatcheu is another big hopeful, 6'3" dual-citi currently 19 and scoring goals in Ligue 1 in France...if he continues to develop he could finally be the true striker the US needs to supplant Jozy at the head of the attack. I was wrong about Wood...I really thought he had just kinda popped up in the right spots for those goals against Germany and Netherlands, but I'm convinced now he has legit ability and look forward to seeing it grow over the next few years

this provides such a variety in skill-sets and potential formations

4-3-3
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Vincent
Nagbe-Bradley-Bedoya
Morris-Johansson-Wood

4-2-3-1
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Vincent
Bradley-Williams
Pulisic-Nagbe-Johnson
Altidore

4-4-2
Yedlin-Cameron-Brooks-Vincent
Bedoya-Bradley-Williams-Johnson
Wood-Altidore

3-5-2
Cameron-Miazga-Brooks
Yedlin-Bradley-Williams-Nagbe-Villafana
Wood-Morris

Edited June 22, 2016 by Censored by Laurie

[Cerebus]

I don't know how the US is ever going to get competitive at the top level of association football.  There are just way too many countries where the top athletes spend their childhood playing nothing but that game.    Their entire country is tuned to find these kids early, get them playing nothing but competitive football as soon as possible, and then weeding out everyone who doesn't cut.

America has so many other sports, and the top athletes gravitate towards other sports, even if their best chance would be in soccer.

I think this is reflected in first touch most of all.  American's never seem to be in that world class of players with great first touch.  At that level, it's a huge difference.  

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

The problem with U.S. soccer will always be the same:  the best athletes in this country do not play soccer.  In other countries, the best athletes do play soccer.  The highest paid athletes in the world, according to Forbes:

American baseball players - 26 in the Top 100 highest paid
American football players - 21
American basketball players - 18
Soccer - 12

So, 77% of the Top 100 paid athletes in the world play either America baseball, football, or basketball - or, are international soccer stars.  There isn't one American soccer player on the list.

Among the Top 25 paid athletes, five are international soccer stars.  American football players have six in the Top 25.  Golf has four.  Tennis, Racing, and American basketball, three.  Boxing, one.

All you have to do is watch Messi's penalty kick goal against us to understand how far apart international soccer talent is from U.S. soccer talent.  It's f*cking mesmerizing. 

You have to look at Messi's three goals in 19 minutes two games prior (yes, one should have been nullified by a hand ball penalty, but still...no American soccer player can net three in 19 minutes against anyone internationally).  As a substitute.

(Actually, I think that was unfair of Argentina...unleashing a fresh Messi on a squad that has already been toiling in the heat for over an hour?  It's already unfair enough with Messi starting.  Stick him in when 2/3rds of the game has already been played in America's summer heat?  Come one, Argentina...you know that's not fair!)

So, taking the long view, I always have to kind of chuckle at people who criticize whomever the latest American team coach is.  The truth is, in countries like Argentina, you probably have the best two dozen of so athletes in that country playing on the same team!

With American soccer, by contrast, it's doubtful that any player on the roster is even one of the best 250 athletes in America.

So, answer this:  how is that the America coaches' fault?  No America coach can magically makes the best athletes in America play soccer.  American soccer has wracked its collective brain since the 70s trying to crack the riddle of how to get kids as interested in soccer here as they are in baseball, basketball, and football. 

It's a problem for American soccer that other countries simply do not have!   Other countries' soccer programs, like Argentina, basically get the best athletes in their country by default:  there is no other legitimate competition for their youths' sports attention.

If you ask me, then, anytime America makes it past the first round or two of international soccer matches, the coach has earned his keep.  He is having to do with an America roster whose players likely wouldn't even crack the roster of another international squad.

And, listen, I love soccer. Played club soccer all the way through high school.  My dad had season tickets to the Dallas Tornado as far back as when they played at Ownby Stadium.  I bought season tickets to the Dallas Burn the first four years of its existence until I moved to Oklahoma for grad school.

The point is, when you are watching the U.S. Men's National team, those are the best athletes in the world.  It hurts to say that.  But, you see what happens when they match up against a country like Argentina.  Lionel Messi is enough.  But, every other player on that roster, almost to a man, is a world class soccer player.  You can say that about only a handful of America players.

Baseball, basketball, and football - and, golf and tennis...and, even boxing and now MMA...get better athletes than the American Men's Soccer team. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

In case some non-soccer Mean Greener wanders in here and has no idea what we are talking about, here is Messi free kick goal against us:
 

 

If you've never played soccer, you have no idea how difficult - impossible - this kick is to make.  And, against Brad Guzan, one of the few truly international-level U.S. soccer players.

Guzan was f*cking playing the corner Messi netted!  This is a Premier League goalkeeper protecting the part of the net that Messi targeted.  It's an insane goal.

But, that is the difference between international football and American soccer, in a nutshell.  One of our best can be doing everything correct...and, still be burned. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

More Messi free kicks.  Ridiculous angle at about 1:50, and...knowing the opposition will try to head the ball at about 2:20, kicks it on the ground.  F*cking ridiculous: 

 

[Censored by Laurie]

20 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

The problem with U.S. soccer will always be the same:  the best athletes in this country do not play soccer.  In other countries, the best athletes do play soccer.  The highest paid athletes in the world, according to Forbes:

American baseball players - 26 in the Top 100 highest paid
American football players - 21
American basketball players - 18
Soccer - 12

So, 77% of the Top 100 paid athletes in the world play either America baseball, football, or basketball - or, are international soccer stars.  There isn't one American soccer player on the list.

Among the Top 25 paid athletes, five are international soccer stars.  American football players have six in the Top 25.  Golf has four.  Tennis, Racing, and American basketball, three.  Boxing, one.

All you have to do is watch Messi's penalty kick goal against us to understand how far apart international soccer talent is from U.S. soccer talent.  It's f*cking mesmerizing. 

You have to look at Messi's three goals in 19 minutes two games prior (yes, one should have been nullified by a hand ball penalty, but still...no American soccer player can net three in 19 minutes against anyone internationally).  As a substitute.

(Actually, I think that was unfair of Argentina...unleashing a fresh Messi on a squad that has already been toiling in the heat for over an hour?  It's already unfair enough with Messi starting.  Stick him in when 2/3rds of the game has already been played in America's summer heat?  Come one, Argentina...you know that's not fair!)

So, taking the long view, I always have to kind of chuckle at people who criticize whomever the latest American team coach is.  The truth is, in countries like Argentina, you probably have the best two dozen of so athletes in that country playing on the same team!

With American soccer, by contrast, it's doubtful that any player on the roster is even one of the best 250 athletes in America.

So, answer this:  how is that the America coaches' fault?  No America coach can magically makes the best athletes in America play soccer.  American soccer has wracked its collective brain since the 70s trying to crack the riddle of how to get kids as interested in soccer here as they are in baseball, basketball, and football. 

It's a problem for American soccer that other countries simply do not have!   Other countries' soccer programs, like Argentina, basically get the best athletes in their country by default:  there is no other legitimate competition for their youths' sports attention.

If you ask me, then, anytime America makes it past the first round or two of international soccer matches, the coach has earned his keep.  He is having to do with an America roster whose players likely wouldn't even crack the roster of another international squad.

And, listen, I love soccer. Played club soccer all the way through high school.  My dad had season tickets to the Dallas Tornado as far back as when they played at Ownby Stadium.  I bought season tickets to the Dallas Burn the first four years of its existence until I moved to Oklahoma for grad school.

The point is, when you are watching the U.S. Men's National team, those are the best athletes in the world.  It hurts to say that.  But, you see what happens when they match up against a country like Argentina.  Lionel Messi is enough.  But, every other player on that roster, almost to a man, is a world class soccer player.  You can say that about only a handful of America players.

Baseball, basketball, and football - and, golf and tennis...and, even boxing and now MMA...get better athletes than the American Men's Soccer team. 

wait...so the bar for successful american soccer is now Messi? 

yes...one issue facing soccer in the US is the fact that our best athletes end up gravitating toward other sports. I'd love to see Antonio Brown and Ted Ginn racing up the wings in a US shirt, whipping in crosses to LeBron. this is a (pretty much) unavoidable reality. 

that said, this is a nation with roughly eight-times as many people as Argentina and a far greater global reach...in reality, we don't lack for athletes in soccer. what we lack (have lacked for years) is a stable youth league structure anchored by a strong domestic league with deep and quality academy systems. you said you played club soccer...that means your parents paid for you to play club soccer rather than your being groomed by a financed academy which could better develop skill sets (like a feathery first touch) and then lead to the most talented youths signing professional contracts by 15-16 years old.  couple pay-to-play with the archaic "amateur" set-up of organizations like the NCAA and you end up stunting development or at the very least delaying it considerably. 

things are changing. the sport's popularity is at an all-time high, even if that's given more to the availability of foreign leagues like the premiership and la liga...and MLS is nearing a point when it can(should) shed it's conservative, protectorate financial policies once needed to ensure survival and start competing for top (second tier) world talent and continue to grow their youth systems. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

2 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

wait...so the bar for successful american soccer is now Messi? 

yes...one issue facing soccer in the US is the fact that our best athletes end up gravitating toward other sports. I'd love to see Antonio Brown and Ted Ginn racing up the wings in a US shirt, whipping in crosses to LeBron. this is a (pretty much) unavoidable reality. 

that said, this is a nation with roughly eight-times as many people as Argentina and a far greater global reach...in reality, we don't lack for athletes in soccer. what we lack (have lacked for years) is a stable youth league structure anchored by a strong domestic league with deep and quality academy systems. you said you played club soccer...that means your parents paid for you to play club soccer rather than your being groomed by a financed academy which could better develop skill sets (like a feathery first touch) and then lead to the most talented youths signing professional contracts by 15-16 years old.  couple pay-to-play with the archaic "amateur" set-up of organizations like the NCAA and you end up stunting development or at the very least delaying it considerably. 

things are changing. the sport's popularity is at an all-time high, even if that's given more to the availability of foreign leagues like the premiership and la liga...and MLS is nearing a point when it can(should) shed it's conservative, protectorate financial policies once needed to ensure survival and start competing for top (second tier) world talent and continue to grow their youth systems. 

The reason I played club soccer is that I had excelled in soccer and baseball as a kid.  However, once I got to junior high, I didn't hit the growth spurt that many others did.  During my last baseball season, I couldn't hit anymore - guys bigger than me were just throwing it past me.  I couldn't - and, didn't - do enough to keep up.

Soccer was the easier path.  I was fast, quick in tight spaces, mean, and hated to lose; an excellent center defender.  I never went to any special soccer camps or programs.  In the 70s, they were harder to come by anyway.  Now, everyone who has played high school soccer it seems puts on a camp.  My daughter, eight, is inundated with soccer camp mail from March through July.

You are correct, then, in that I never went to an academy.  But, neither did many of the best athletes in America.  You had Larry Bird-types out in the middle of nowhere as kids just shooting the basketball at a hoop with no backboard.  No camps or special teams.  Just practice, practice, practice to ripen the talent already there.  Nolan Ryan throwing rocks at cans.  

My point isn't that we don't have good athletes playing soccer, or even that the bar is Messi.  The point is when we play Argentina and other Top 25 soccer countries - they have the best athlete in their countries playing.  We don't.  

So, unlike many other who follow soccer, I'm never in a lather to fire the latest U.S. men's soccer coach.  All of them are doing what they are doing with rosters that are, across the board, less talented than their foreign counterparts.

You look back at Pele, for instance, in his prime.  In that same time period, who were America's best athletes?  Last 50s through the 60s.  I'd argue, easily, Cassius Clay, Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Pete Rose, Frank Robinson. Bob Cousy, Jerry West, Bill Sharman.... Think of it - if even just one or two of those guys had gone down the path to playing soccer from youth!

My other point is valid as well - kids just have more to choose from in America as far as highly visible sports.  I mean guys as fleet afoot as Sayers with a lifelong passion for soccer would have been deadly.  Rose would have been an excellent early American version of Wayne Rooney. 

We've had powerful athletes, swift athletes, crafty athletes all along.  It's just that not enough of them play soccer to the degree that when we put our XI against Argentina and the like, we don't come close to matching it.

That's not the U.S. coaches' fault.  So, again, if we are two rounds deep into an international competition, I think the U.S. soccer coach is doing an extremely good job.  He's doing more with a lesser roster.

You are correct in that, due to population size alone, we could have a better roster.  I hope it comes true some day because it's exciting to watch teams like Brazil, Argentina, Netherlands, and the like.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

[Censored by Laurie]

On 6/24/2016 at 0:15 PM, MeanGreenMailbox said:

My point isn't that we don't have good athletes playing soccer, or even that the bar is Messi.  The point is when we play Argentina and other Top 25 soccer countries - they have the best athlete in their countries playing.  We don't.  

the best athletes of Peru, Venezuela, Bolivia and Paraguay all play soccer as well and the US National Team is at the absolute very least on par with those four nations. Colombia, who we think of as a world power, was well-down during the 00s...far below the USMNT. 

no one doubts that US soccer would be better if it's best athletes played the game. but that's a moot argument. the infrastructure supporting the sport and the leadership supporting the infrastructure is far more important. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

22 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

the best athletes of Peru, Venezuela, Bolivia and Paraguay all play soccer as well and the US National Team is at the absolute very least on par with those four nations. Colombia, who we think of as a world power, was well-down during the 00s...far below the USMNT. 

no one doubts that US soccer would be better if it's best athletes played the game. but that's a moot argument. the infrastructure supporting the sport and the leadership supporting the infrastructure is far more important. 

I agree.  And, I think that's where your point about our population comes into play.  We have so many more people, the sheer numbers can produce the equal athletes in soccer to many countries, even if our best of the best are playing baseball, football, and basketball.

Peru has 31 million, we have 350 million. Venezuela, 30 million...although, I think they've become more known for baseball than soccer.  Bolivia, 10.5 million.  Paraguay, 7 million.

So, there is some break point at which the focus on one sport at the expense of all others rings truer.  From population statistics, that number appears to be 40 million. 

Population by traditional soccer power countries:
Brazil:  204 million, 5 World Cup Championships
Germany:  81 million, 4 WC
France:  66 million, 1 WC
England:  65 million, 1 WC
Italy:  60 million, 4 WC
Colombia: 48 million
Spain: 46 million, 1 WC
Argentina: 43 million, 2 WC

There have been 20 World Cup champions.  Of those, 18 have been won by one of the countries listed above...actually, all listed except Colombia. 

The outlier is Uruguay, which has won the Wold Cup twice...but, not since their last win in 1950!

The biggest outliers in the Population to World Soccer Success are, of course, Russia with 144 million people, Mexico at 121 million...China at 1.3 billion, and India at 1.25 billion.

With Russia, I think you can look at their climate..,and the sheer amount of success they've had with winter sports.  China, can't explain that one, but they do have probably the best table tennis and very good basketball.  India, you're talking Cricket as fanatical or moreso than American's take football.

What of Mexico at 121 million with not even one appearance in the World Cup finals?  Well, Mexico is everyone's drunk uncle, f*cking up just when you think they'd turned the corner and had it licked.  They'd be the lovable losers, like the Chicago Cubs...if, they were lovable.  They're not.

Mexico plays dirty, and pretty much deserves whatever derision is heaped upon them for their world soccer failures.

 

Edited June 29, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox