Scheduling Question

[SlimSlamSlum]

Why don't schools in the same conference work together on out of conference scheduling? Are there rules against it or is it just not the way it is done?

For example, let's say C-USA and the SEC work out a deal where UNT goes to LSU, and in return LSU plays a game at LA Tech. A&M comes to Denton, for a game, and gets a home game against LA Tech. 

Has anything like this ever been attempted?

[untjim1995]

Just now, SlimSlamSlum said:

Why don't schools in the same conference work together on out of conference scheduling? Are there rules against it or is it just not the way it is done?

For example, let's say C-USA and the SEC work out a deal where UNT goes to LSU, and in return LSU plays a game at LA Tech. A&M comes to Denton, for a game, and gets a home game against LA Tech. 

Has anything like this ever been attempted?

Not that I'm aware of...its really hard in the circumstances you listed above because LSU has no interest at playing a game outside of Baton Rouge or New Orleans against an in-state school. Same thing for A&M, Texas, OU, or Arkansas--they'll play at JerryWorld in DFW.

The problem is that the P5s have all the money and power here. Sure, a school like Western Kentucky was shrewd enough to use a bought game at Wisconsin to get a home-and-home with Wisconsin in hoops, but that is also due to the fact that winning a game at WKU has some merit in the NCAA circles come Tournament Selection time. In the end, though, its up to the ADs at each school to work a deal. Previously, we had a lazy AD who just accepted the deal that some P5 powerhouse offered, just so it could be done. He knew that whatever they would pay us was enough to cover a lot of AD expenses, so negotiating didn't even matter to him.

The schedule here will be bad for a while, barring something completely changing the games scheduled against FCS teams, SMU, or Army. My guess is that the one decent sized P5 we could get for a game here for many reasons is Oklahoma State. They have always played at G5s, have a ton of alumni in DFW, and only play here every other year when they go to Ft. Worth to play TCU. Kansas, Mizzou, and Colorado are others that could be enticed by getting another DFW game, as well, but OSU represents the best chance, IMO, of hosting a P5 that is in the Big XII and would fill up Apogee to close to a sellout.

 

[Ben Gooding]

1 minute ago, untjim1995 said:

Not that I'm aware of...its really hard in the circumstances you listed above because LSU has no interest at playing a game outside of Baton Rouge or New Orleans against an in-state school. Same thing for A&M, Texas, OU, or Arkansas--they'll play at JerryWorld in DFW.

The problem is that the P5s have all the money and power here. Sure, a school like Western Kentucky was shrewd enough to use a bought game at Wisconsin to get a home-and-home with Wisconsin in hoops, but that is also due to the fact that winning a game at WKU has some merit in the NCAA circles come Tournament Selection time. In the end, though, its up to the ADs at each school to work a deal. Previously, we had a lazy AD who just accepted the deal that some P5 powerhouse offered, just so it could be done. He knew that whatever they would pay us was enough to cover a lot of AD expenses, so negotiating didn't even matter to him.

The schedule here will be bad for a while, barring something completely changing the games scheduled against FCS teams, SMU, or Army. My guess is that the one decent sized P5 we could get for a game here for many reasons is Oklahoma State. They have always played at G5s, have a ton of alumni in DFW, and only play here every other year when they go to Ft. Worth to play TCU. Kansas, Mizzou, and Colorado are others that could be enticed by getting another DFW game, as well, but OSU represents the best chance, IMO, of hosting a P5 that is in the Big XII and would fill up Apogee to close to a sellout.

 

They do have the money, but what they cannot dictate is who they play OOC. That is actually where we have the power if AD's at these schools would just understand that. These consistent top 40-50 schools can't afford to play 12 "P5" schools. They don't want 2-3 additional potential blemishes on their record every year. They need us. 

[Cerebus]

P5 schools can make $3M or more at a home game.  This is a big reason why it is so hard to get them to agree to away games at G5 schools.  Instead of agreeing to a home/home they can just pay $1M or more for a G5 to come in and then still make several million.

[drex]

Just wondering.  I know that in the past NT has played schools home and home with the contract being that each school keeps their home gate receipts.  Might work now, but the pressure would be on NT to fill their stadium for their home game in order to generate enough revenue to make it worthwhile for NT.

[Greenrex]

Another thing I am curious about is what is the possibility of a new AD being able to change some of this scheduling mess created by the former AD?

[UNTFan23]

52 minutes ago, Greenrex said:

Another thing I am curious about is what is the possibility of a new AD being able to change some of this scheduling mess created by the former AD?

Depends on how far out we are looking at and the buyout for the contracts. It could get expensive to buyout those contracts and whether the new revenue for a new contract for a different team could offset the old contract buyout.

[MeanGreenTexan]

2 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

Depends on how far out we are looking at and the buyout for the contracts. It could get expensive to buyout those contracts and whether the new revenue for a new contract for a different team could offset the old contract buyout.

I highly doubt the new AD changes anything over the next few years.   If he/we can fill Apogee consistently to make money, then we'll be able to start looking at buying out Wisconsin/A&M in 2019/2020, respectively.  Then, we would need to find some home/home series to play in order to bring that money back in from the Apogee gate.

[untjim1995]

22 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I highly doubt the new AD changes anything over the next few years.   If he/we can fill Apogee consistently to make money, then we'll be able to start looking at buying out Wisconsin/A&M in 2019/2020, respectively.  Then, we would need to find some home/home series to play in order to bring that money back in from the Apogee gate.

I just don't see us buying off these FCS schools or getting out of the bodybag games scheduled ahead against Arkansas, Wisconsin, or A&M. Ironically, the only thing I can truly see is the possibility of SMU buying out of the series with us in a few years. If that occurs, we would have another home-and-home available for rescheduling. We have Army for the next 8 years, which I know we will not get out of, and if SMU doesn't cancel  the series, then we won't see another OOC opponent at Apogee until Memphis comes here after the Army series ends.

Its too bad for the new AD, who will probably be shocked at all that he is going to have to try and build up when he gets the job, beyond just fundraising and hiring better coaches. The fundraising will determine the fate of the next AD, for sure, but the football scheduling that he will inherit only makes the job much harder. When you come to a job and look at in the next 4 football season ahead and see that you are hosting the CUSA , SMU, Army, Butt Cookman, Lamar, Incarnate Word, and Abilene Christian, you know that it isn't going to be sellouts at Apogee that will fix things here, even if we are good. The best crowds we have seen at Apogee since it opened had 28k for UH in its inaugural game and 24k for UTEP on Homecoming during our only good season in the last decade plus...

[MeanGreenTexan]

13 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

I just don't see us buying off these FCS schools or getting out of the bodybag games scheduled ahead against Arkansas, Wisconsin, or A&M. Ironically, the only thing I can truly see is the possibility of SMU buying out of the series with us in a few years. If that occurs, we would have another home-and-home available for rescheduling. We have Army for the next 8 years, which I know we will not get out of, and if SMU doesn't cancel  the series, then we won't see another OOC opponent at Apogee until Memphis comes here after the Army series ends.

Its too bad for the new AD, who will probably be shocked at all that he is going to have to try and build up when he gets the job, beyond just fundraising and hiring better coaches. The fundraising will determine the fate of the next AD, for sure, but the football scheduling that he will inherit only makes the job much harder. When you come to a job and look at in the next 4 football season ahead and see that you are hosting the CUSA , SMU, Army, Butt Cookman, Lamar, Incarnate Word, and Abilene Christian, you know that it isn't going to be sellouts at Apogee that will fix things here, even if we are good. The best crowds we have seen at Apogee since it opened had 28k for UH in its inaugural game and 24k for UTEP on Homecoming during our only good season in the last decade plus...

I believe this can be close to the norm for us.

As for the paycheck games, it depends on what the buyout clause is for UNT in each of those games.  If we can make up that money via attendance/season ticket sales, then we can buy out of those games and schedule something else like a home/home that would set us up to possibly have a 7-home game schedule some years!  Can you believe that?

[Ben Gooding]

29 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

I just don't see us buying off these FCS schools or getting out of the bodybag games scheduled ahead against Arkansas, Wisconsin, or A&M. Ironically, the only thing I can truly see is the possibility of SMU buying out of the series with us in a few years. If that occurs, we would have another home-and-home available for rescheduling. We have Army for the next 8 years, which I know we will not get out of, and if SMU doesn't cancel  the series, then we won't see another OOC opponent at Apogee until Memphis comes here after the Army series ends.

Its too bad for the new AD, who will probably be shocked at all that he is going to have to try and build up when he gets the job, beyond just fundraising and hiring better coaches. The fundraising will determine the fate of the next AD, for sure, but the football scheduling that he will inherit only makes the job much harder. When you come to a job and look at in the next 4 football season ahead and see that you are hosting the CUSA , SMU, Army, Butt Cookman, Lamar, Incarnate Word, and Abilene Christian, you know that it isn't going to be sellouts at Apogee that will fix things here, even if we are good. The best crowds we have seen at Apogee since it opened had 28k for UH in its inaugural game and 24k for UTEP on Homecoming during our only good season in the last decade plus...

That UTEP game was 26,119. It was a surprisingly good crowd given the opponent not being very good. But UTEP travels well in the DFW area and it was homecoming. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by Ben Gooding

[untjim1995]

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I believe this can be close to the norm for us.

As for the paycheck games, it depends on what the buyout clause is for UNT in each of those games.  If we can make up that money via attendance/season ticket sales, then we can buy out of those games and schedule something else like a home/home that would set us up to possibly have a 7-home game schedule some years!  Can you believe that?

I am impressed you could even type that without dying of hysterical laughing first...

[MeanGreenTexan]

6 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

I am impressed you could even type that without dying of hysterical laughing first...

Seems impossible now, I know.
The old regime that has beaten us all down for 15+years is about to be gone.   Time to start thinking in a fresh way. 

[UNT90]

20 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Seems impossible now, I know.
The old regime that has beaten us all down for 15+years is about to be gone.   Time to start thinking in a fresh way. 

I'm a huge fan of this post.

HUGE!!

[Christopher Walker]

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

I'm a huge fan of this post.

HUGE!!

YUGE?

[meanJewGreen]

Count me as someone who partly enjoys the bodybag games. If you have a decent team, they can get pretty competitive. It's going to be awesome to go to College Station in 2020 with my brother to watch our alma maters play each other, just like it was fun for me to go with my other brother to Austin to watch his school face off against UNT. It's an experience every college student should have 

[meangreen16]

1 hour ago, meanJewGreen said:

Count me as someone who partly enjoys the bodybag games. If you have a decent team, they can get pretty competitive. It's going to be awesome to go to College Station in 2020 with my brother to watch our alma maters play each other, just like it was fun for me to go with my other brother to Austin to watch his school face off against UNT. It's an experience every college student should have 

And remember how excited people were after we were tied in the third quarter at Georgia? I know that season has been the outlier, but when you do have a good team the bodybag games are the chance to show people that you're actually good.  

[MeanGreen_MBA]

1 hour ago, meanJewGreen said:

Count me as someone who partly enjoys the bodybag games. If you have a decent team, they can get pretty competitive. It's going to be awesome to go to College Station in 2020 with my brother to watch our alma maters play each other, just like it was fun for me to go with my other brother to Austin to watch his school face off against UNT. It's an experience every college student should have 

remember when we were up 10-3 against OU....I think the final was 63-10, but for a minute......

4 minutes ago, meangreen16 said:

And remember how excited people were after we were tied in the third quarter at Georgia? I know that season has been the outlier, but when you do have a good team the bodybag games are the chance to show people that you're actually good.  

La. Monroe beat Alabama....

[Ben Gooding]

14 minutes ago, meangreen16 said:

And remember how excited people were after we were tied in the third quarter at Georgia? I know that season has been the outlier, but when you do have a good team the bodybag games are the chance to show people that you're actually good.  

And G5's all over the country challenge P5 teams on an annual basis. It just doesn't seem to happen with UNT with any kind of consistency. We either look really good and win vs very bad P5 teams (Baylor in the early 00's and IU in 2011) or we look awful in doing so (OU 2008, LSU 2011, Bama 2012(?), Iowa 2015, UT 2014, etc. etc. etc. Then something like 2013 vs Georgia happens that is just as rare for UNT as beating a bad P5 team, we are competitive with a good P5 team. 

[Texas Stranger]

9 hours ago, meanJewGreen said:

Count me as someone who partly enjoys the bodybag games. If you have a decent team, they can get pretty competitive. It's going to be awesome to go to College Station in 2020 with my brother to watch our alma maters play each other, just like it was fun for me to go with my other brother to Austin to watch his school face off against UNT. It's an experience every college student should have 

I also have no problems with unreturned games at UT or aTm (if a guarantee game must be played). It's easier travel for those who wish to go and pulling off the upset at either one of those would get maximum recruiting impact.  Hopefully with RV gone we never set foot in Baton Rouge again.

On the original topic, the SBC had a "mass OOC scheduling" deal with the MAC about 10 years ago or so.  It's how we ended up with the Ohio and Ball State series, and a trip to Akron was repaid with a home game from Navy (who was also part of the scheduling arrangement).

[FirefightnRick]

10 hours ago, meangreen16 said:

And remember how excited people were after we were leading late in the 4th quarter at Texas? I know that season has been the outlier, but when you do have a good team the bodybag games are the chance to show people that you're actually good.  

Yup, I remember.

 

Rick

Edited June 4, 2016 by FirefightnRick

[UNT90]

20 hours ago, meangreen16 said:

And remember how excited people were after we were tied in the third quarter at Georgia? I know that season has been the outlier, but when you do have a good team the bodybag games are the chance to show people that you're actually good.  

Imagine if you played a game like that in Apogee where the chances of actually winning could double.

Please, please, please read Texan's below post. Learn it, love it, live it.

On June 2, 2016 at 1:41 PM, MeanGreenTexan said:

Seems impossible now, I know.
The old regime that has beaten us all down for 15+years is about to be gone.   Time to start thinking in a fresh way. 

 

[GrandGreen]

On 6/2/2016 at 10:59 AM, Cerebus said:

P5 schools can make $3M or more at a home game.  This is a big reason why it is so hard to get them to agree to away games at G5 schools.  Instead of agreeing to a home/home they can just pay $1M or more for a G5 to come in and then still make several million.

You are right, and I wish more fans could understand this.   There is little reason for a P5 to play away oc games.  They make a lot more money at home and have almost zero chance of losing.  

The only reasons they really have to schedule oc away games is to give them game time experience on the road before conference, have a presence in particular recruiting areas, and  in some occasions give their players a visit to a destination city. 

Likewise, G5 teams like NT make a lot more money at an away guarantee game then they could by having an one and one with the same team.  

So what you are really looking for is a P5 who is willing to lose millions by playing on the road and greatly increase their chance of losing.  Some P5's are more G5's in disguise and the financial impact is not as significant and they are looking for wins more than anything else.   They don't have the fan base to pay big guarantees and scheduling them is easier however having to share the metroplex with two more teams that have better name recognition does not help.  Likewise, Jerryworld scheduling neutral site games is also competition. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by GrandGreen

[MeanGreenTexan]

On 6/4/2016 at 10:30 AM, GrandGreen said:

You are right, and I wish more fans could understand this.   There is little reason for a P5 to play away oc games.  They make a lot more money at home and have almost zero chance of losing.  

The only reasons they really have to schedule oc away games is to give them game time experience on the road before conference, have a presence in particular recruiting areas, and  in some occasions give their players a visit to a destination city. 

Likewise, G5 teams like NT make a low more money at an away guarantee game then they could by having an one and one with the same team.  

So what you are really looking for is a P5 who is willing to lose millions by playing on the road and greatly increase their chance of losing.  Some P5's are more G5's in disguise and the financial impact is not as significant and they are looking for wins more than anything else.   They don't have the fan base to pay big guarantees and scheduling them is easier however having to share the metroplex with two more teams that have better name recognition does not help.  Likewise, Jerryworld scheduling neutral site games is also competition. 

This is all correct.   That's why it's essential to target the low-level P5's that are not already coming to DFW, but are recruiting here.  Forget any of the big12 teams like Kansas or IASt... they already have a presence in Dallas because they get to play at TCU every other year.   Forget any of the AAC G5's because they're already playing in Dallas against SMU every other year.   And forget those SEC teams that have neutral site games at Jerry World too.  

Have to look at teams like Colorado, Arizona, (Maybe Littrell could work on this), Tennessee, Kentucky, etc..., or any Eastern-MWC team.

[UNT90]

On June 3, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Ben Gooding said:

Then something like 2013 vs Georgia happens that is just as rare for UNT as beating a bad P5 team, we are competitive with a good P5 team. 

I don't call a 24 point loss to UG "competitive." Neither should you considering you are constantly saying we shouldn't accept a 3 win season this year.

I guess you thought UNT was "competitive" against Tennessee last year? In a 24 point loss?

 

On June 4, 2016 at 10:30 AM, GrandGreen said:

You are right, and I wish more fans could understand this.   There is little reason for a P5 to play away oc games.  They make a lot more money at home and have almost zero chance of losing.  

The only reasons they really have to schedule oc away games is to give them game time experience on the road before conference, have a presence in particular recruiting areas, and  in some occasions give their players a visit to a destination city. 

Likewise, G5 teams like NT make a low more money at an away guarantee game then they could by having an one and one with the same team.  

So what you are really looking for is a P5 who is willing to lose millions by playing on the road and greatly increase their chance of losing.  Some P5's are more G5's in disguise and the financial impact is not as significant and they are looking for wins more than anything else.   They don't have the fan base to pay big guarantees and scheduling them is easier however having to share the metroplex with two more teams that have better name recognition does not help.  Likewise, Jerryworld scheduling neutral site games is also competition. 

And yet Arkansas St brings in Mizzou. SMU brings in Baylor and Texas A&M. And any other number of examples of G5s getting done what you think is impossible.

The truth is UNT was way too lazy for over a decade to make this happen, even after promising fans who made investments in the program that these types often would be scheduled. This isn't impossible, it was only impossible while the hustler was hustling.

I'm hopeful UNT finally employs a real FBS AD that can somehow fix the disaster of a schedule left by the former terrible AD. 

#expectmore

Edited June 5, 2016 by UNT90