CTE/ Brain Trama

[Dr. Seuss]

I bring up this topic to see what peoples thoughts are on this.  It's a very sensitive topic but I think its one that should be looked at.  I'll hold my opinion, I've done a little bit of research on it.  

Do you think CTE is caused by concussions, repetitive hits to the head or both?  If you believe it's caused by the 50,000+ plus hits to the head, what do you think will change?

[MEANGREENCOACH2]

If CTE is caused by concussions I need to take out an insurance policy that covers hospital visits because I had my fair share of concussions in high school & college playing football.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

It's real...otherwise, the NFL wouldn't be fighting it, in and out of court.  Didn't the NFL just make a settlement of almost $1 billion?  Did the NFL also not promulgate new, in-game concussion protocol?  NCAA as well?

It's real.  Like smoking increases the chances of different types of cancer, mainly lung, I think head hits in football that lead to concussions lead to CTE.  But, like smoking, it doesn't mean everyone who does it is going to suffer from it.

Some people smoke until the day they die and don't contract cancer.  Many have played football and not suffered from CTE the way, say, a Junior Seau did.  Everyone's body is going to react differently.

So, like cigarettes, there should always be warnings about what football concussions can do, and proper precautions taken.  The NFL and NCAA are admitting to it by their actions.  Follow their actions, not their words.

[EagleMBA]

Disclaimer: My only firsthand experience comes from playing HS ball over 50 years ago in a padded leather helmet; switched to plastic a season or so before I graduated. I played OG and some LB, and got my bell rung with regularity, but no concussions that I recall. I have a plethora of old dings (toe, knee, shoulder, neck, etc.) that bother me now but thank God CTE passed me by. I had uncles who lived into their 80s, both played HS ball and one played college ball, and neither developed any dementia.

With that frame of reference, I will express some opinions, for what they may be worth. First, CTE is very concerning to me as a fan. I love the game but don't like to see young men get seriously injured (although a little nasty O-line action is OK). I am not fully aware of the latest improvements in helmet technology and whether that will ultimately stop the problem; perhaps the cases we hear about now have taken years to develop and the injuries occurred before the helmets started to improve.

Second, I think it is more likely to have its roots in repetitive hits to the head than a few concussions. JMO. Think of Ali.

Third, you can only do so much with protective technology so I suspect that any changes in the near term will come in the form of additional rules. Good luck with that!

Fourth, there seems to me to be a lot of variables to sort through and research to be done. Are the positions the victims played random or are the cases concentrated around a few positions? Can we document what region of the head received the most damaging blows? On and on. There is a lot of work to be done here, and I'm sure there has been a lot of it underway for a couple of years.

[UTSA Fan]

I hope not. What a tragic condition.

[NorthTexan95]

3 hours ago, Dr. Seuss said:

I bring up this topic to see what peoples thoughts are on this.  It's a very sensitive topic but I think its one that should be looked at.  I'll hold my opinion, I've done a little bit of research on it.  

Do you think CTE is caused by concussions, repetitive hits to the head or both?  If you believe it's caused by the 50,000+ plus hits to the head, what do you think will change?

You think this crowd is a good bet to have qualified answers to this question? 

[mgfan]

Nothing good could happen to the brain after being hit in the head thousands of times oover the years. 

[Texas Stranger]

1 hour ago, NorthTexan95 said:

You think this crowd is a good bet to have qualified answers to this question? 

When has that ever stopped anyone?

[Dr. Seuss]

13 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

Disclaimer: My only firsthand experience comes from playing HS ball over 50 years ago in a padded leather helmet; switched to plastic a season or so before I graduated. I played OG and some LB, and got my bell rung with regularity, but no concussions that I recall. I have a plethora of old dings (toe, knee, shoulder, neck, etc.) that bother me now but thank God CTE passed me by. I had uncles who lived into their 80s, both played HS ball and one played college ball, and neither developed any dementia.

With that frame of reference, I will express some opinions, for what they may be worth. First, CTE is very concerning to me as a fan. I love the game but don't like to see young men get seriously injured (although a little nasty O-line action is OK). I am not fully aware of the latest improvements in helmet technology and whether that will ultimately stop the problem; perhaps the cases we hear about now have taken years to develop and the injuries occurred before the helmets started to improve.

Second, I think it is more likely to have its roots in repetitive hits to the head than a few concussions. JMO. Think of Ali.

Third, you can only do so much with protective technology so I suspect that any changes in the near term will come in the form of additional rules. Good luck with that!

Fourth, there seems to me to be a lot of variables to sort through and research to be done. Are the positions the victims played random or are the cases concentrated around a few positions? Can we document what region of the head received the most damaging blows? On and on. There is a lot of work to be done here, and I'm sure there has been a lot of it underway for a couple of years.

 

I love your response, thanks.

I personally don't believe any helmet technology will be able to stop the brain from colliding into the skull.  That's just physics.  Helmets are mainly designed to protect the skull, not the brain. Put an egg in a ball with the same type of protection that a helmet has. Then, throw it against the wall at 30 MPH. Will the egg break?

According to Boston University, who I believe is the best and nonbias says it's the repetitive hits.  Which brings the question, how do you stop that?  Do you go back to leather helmets?  Do you introduce the sport at a later age? Is this non-curable? 

I believe the NFL wants everyone to think its concussion because they have an option for that but when the come out and say it's the repetitive hits.  What will happen to their product?

 I personally believe the NFL has put millions of Americans lives at risk.  Yes, this isn't only in football but the NFL has the resources and data to see if there was a problem but they overlooked it.  Why?  Simple answer, greed. 

The research is out there and it's not good.  According to Boston University 94.8 percent of the brains that they have tested positive for CTE; they've tested over 90 cases.

[Dr. Seuss]

16 hours ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

It's real...otherwise, the NFL wouldn't be fighting it, in and out of court.  Didn't the NFL just make a settlement of almost $1 billion?  Did the NFL also not promulgate new, in-game concussion protocol?  NCAA as well?

It's real.  Like smoking increases the chances of different types of cancer, mainly lung, I think head hits in football that lead to concussions lead to CTE.  But, like smoking, it doesn't mean everyone who does it is going to suffer from it.

Some people smoke until the day they die and don't contract cancer.  Many have played football and not suffered from CTE the way, say, a Junior Seau did.  Everyone's body is going to react differently.

So, like cigarettes, there should always be warnings about what football concussions can do, and proper precautions taken.  The NFL and NCAA are admitting to it by their actions.  Follow their actions, not their words.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your response, it's great!

You're right, it is real and every player will react to it differently. According to Dr. Cantu from Boston University he said  smokers are "only" 15-30 times more likely to develop lung cancer than non-smokers. But, they state, brain trauma victims are far more likely to develop CTE than a smoker is to get lung cancer. 

The main question is did every player know of the risk? Most would say that they know the risk but that's not true at all.  I've asked multiple current NFL players, a current CFL player, NCAA players, and retired players all said they were unaware of the risk or brain trauma.  They all knew that they could be paralyzed from a wrong hit but that's few and far between.

I think studies show that >25% of NFL players will have CTE.  But what percent of athletes are getting it at an earlier age?  I'm pretty sure on the Dateline special they tested a high school player for CTE and he came back positive. 

Edited May 4, 2016 by Dr. Seuss

[UNTLifer]

I like MBA's answer and will add a few opinions of my own:

1.  Helmet technology is hurting the game more than helping it.  These new helmets, designed to protect the person wearing the helmet, gives the defensive player a sense of invincibility.  Because of this, the art of proper tackling has been lost over who can run in to and create the big highlight reel hit.  Bring back the leather helmet and watch these players learn proper technique.

2.  The steroid era.  I truly believe steroid/growth hormone/etc... have a cause in all of this.  Not only in the size of the player producing the force/hit, but also in the physical and psychological effects steroids have on the user.  I also believe these "drugs" have been an overlooked or ignored cause in some player's suicides.

People will do anything, regardless of the long term physical effects, to gain an advantage, be famous, etc...  This has been proven true in a number of surveys where people were asked if they would take or do something to provide them with immediate success even if it shaved years off of their lives.  In relation to pro football, these young men are in their early 20's when they enter the league.  I know at that age I was still making questionable decisions.  Hell, I would have probably risked a concussion to impress a young lady in a bar.

[Dr. Seuss]

12 hours ago, NorthTexan95 said:

You think this crowd is a good bet to have qualified answers to this question? 

Complaining about RV, lack of QBs, no recruits, uniforms, the list goes on.... We can still beat that down or talk about something that actually has a possible impact in your life or ones that you love.

[UNT90]

54 minutes ago, Dr. Seuss said:

I love your response, thanks.

I personally don't believe any helmet technology will be able to stop the brain from colliding into the skull.  That's just physics.  Helmets are mainly designed to protect the skull, not the brain.

This is spot on. Helmet technology doesn't matter. Until they invent a pill that can keep the brain from colliding with the interior side of the skull when there is a significant force change of direction, there will always be head injuries in football. Always. 

We all did things in our youth that we suffer physical ailments from later in life. Drinking alcohol to excess is a major factor in not only dementia, but a whole host of other physical ailments. We know that. Yet many do it anyway, and not just in their youth. There is always self-negotiation on these issues and we are responsible for the way we choose to lead our lives. 

Its good that this info is out there. It lets parents and, as they get older, players decide for themselves if they want to make the sacrafice to play the game. It really shouldn't be anymore than that. 

Make an educated decision and accept the consequences. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

2 hours ago, Dr. Seuss said:

Thanks for your response, it's great!

You're right, it is real and every player will react to it differently. According to Dr. Cantu from Boston University he said  smokers are "only" 15-30 times more likely to develop lung cancer than non-smokers. But, they state, brain trauma victims are far more likely to develop CTE than a smoker is to get lung cancer. 

The main question is did every player know of the risk? Most would say that they know the risk but that's not true at all.  I've asked multiple current NFL players, a current CFL player, NCAA players, and retired players all said they were unaware of the risk or brain trauma.  They all knew that they could be paralyzed from a wrong hit but that's few and far between.

I think studies show that >25% of NFL players will have CTE.  But what percent of athletes are getting it at an earlier age?  I'm pretty sure on the Dateline special they tested a high school player for CTE and he came back positive. 

I haven't seen the Dateline special, however, I feel like human nature is, for better or worse, prone to greed.

For decades, the tobacco/cigarette industry hid/downplayed medical studies about the adverse effects of its products on longtime users.  I do feel like the NFL did the same.

As I say, I didn't not see the Dateline special, but I did watch one on PBS a few months ago.  It seemed to me like the doctors for the NFL were shills.  It was disappointing to see that.  They were ignoring the wives (or, at least one wife) of former players who did show CTE after their deaths.

I just don't understand it.  To me, it's like the circus and animals - why would you mistreat the beings that are making you money?  Simply because a new batch is drafted every year? 

Of course, I think the PBS show - like all shows - was probably skewed to a certain degree; but, not so much to where I think it was akin to a Michael Moore-, Spike Lee-, or Oliver Stone-type skew.  I think the PBS show did attempt to let the NFL tell their side; but, the NFL seemed to be to busy trying to prove CTE wasn't caused by football.

There is something to this thing, and the NFL and NCAA are starting - albeit reluctantly - to react to it.  Unfortunately, my feeling is that they are reacting not out of concern for the players, but concern for their bottom line.

I also like the comment about the role of steroids and bigger players.  One way or the other, it's still all a part of modern football.  Yet, you can go back and read the biographies and autobiographies of former Oakland Raiders and see that the teams are just as guilty as the league as a whole in ignoring/downplaying/glossing over a wide range of player injuries.

Edited May 4, 2016 by MeanGreenMailbox

[Dr. Seuss]

34 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I haven't seen the Dateline special, however, I feel like human nature is, for better or worse, prone to greed.

For decades, the tobacco/cigarette industry hid/downplayed medical studies about the adverse effects of its products on longtime users.  I do feel like the NFL did the same.

As I say, I didn't not see the Dateline special, but I did watch one on PBS a few months ago.  It seemed to me like the doctors for the NFL were shills.  It was disappointing to see that.  They were ignoring the wives (or, at least one wife) of former players who did show CTE after their deaths.

I just don't understand it.  To me, it's like the circus and animals - why would you mistreat the beings that are making you money?  Simply because a new batch is drafted every year? 

Of course, I think the PBS show - like all shows - was probably skewed to a certain degree; but, not so much to where I think it was akin to a Michael Moore-, Spike Lee-, or Oliver Stone-type skew.  I think the PBS show did attempt to let the NFL tell their side; but, the NFL seemed to be to busy trying to prove CTE wasn't caused by football.

There is something to this thing, and the NFL and NCAA are starting - albeit reluctantly - to react to it.  Unfortunately, my feeling is that they are reacting not out of concern for the players, but concern for their bottom line.

I also like the comment about the role of steroids and bigger players.  One way or the other, it's still all a part of modern football.  Yet, you can go back and read the biographies and autobiographies of former Oakland Raiders and see that the teams are just as guilty as the league as a whole in ignoring/downplaying/glossing over a wide range of player injuries.

3

I completely agree with you. The NFL doesn't care about safety, history has shown it.  People thought they could be because the were non-profit but now there in the for-profit business.  It is sad, and the more stuff I'm reading is making me want to cancel my season tickets.  Nothing to do with RV and the program but the sport as a whole. 

I don't like to compare what happened in the past, you can't change it.  We can only change the future

[Dr. Seuss]

4 hours ago, UNT90 said:

 

Make an educated decision and accept the consequences. 

 

That's a lot easier said than done. 

[UNT90]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Seuss said:

That's a lot easier said than done. 

That is a different societal problem, not a football problem. 

[Dr. Seuss]

3 hours ago, UNT90 said:

That is a different societal problem, not a football problem. 

Completely agree

[Monkeypox]

9 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Its good that this info is out there. It lets parents and, as they get older, players decide for themselves if they want to make the sacrafice to play the game. It really shouldn't be anymore than that. 

Make an educated decision and accept the consequences. 

And for the most part, history has proven that the vast majority of players are willing to risk it. I remember the big buzz about Toradol a few years ago. When asked, most players said knowledge of the side effects and potential for lasting damage wouldn't change their decisions. They just want to HAVE the knowledge, because there are a handful of guys out there who will risk it a few years, take their millions, and go on to do something else. And in many cases, they don't care what the risk is, as long as they're compensated for the value of that risk.

Most are going to take the money for as long as they can. I don't blame them, though.  A lot of people die from a lot of horrible things, and they don't get to trade it for millions of dollars.

[UNT90]

9 minutes ago, Monkeypox said:

And for the most part, history has proven that the vast majority of players are willing to risk it. I remember the big buzz about Toradol a few years ago. When asked, most players said knowledge of the side effects and potential for lasting damage wouldn't change their decisions. They just want to HAVE the knowledge, because there are a handful of guys out there who will risk it a few years, take their millions, and go on to do something else. And in many cases, they don't care what the risk is, as long as they're compensated for the value of that risk.

Most are going to take the money for as long as they can. I don't blame them, though.  A lot of people die from a lot of horrible things, and they don't get to trade it for millions of dollars.

Any one of us could die in a car wreck tomorrow. Nothing is gauranteed in life. It's great that people have the information and can make more informed decisions, but this isn't new. Roger Staubach and Troy Aikman both talked about long term health concerns due to multiple concussions when they retired. Players have gotten paralyzed on the field. It's a dangerous game, and everyone knows it. And it's also partially why Americans love it.

Edited May 5, 2016 by UNT90

[EagleMBA]

Just a thought. It would be interesting to see if the number of cases is correlated to the offensive scheme. What if increasing frequency in plays calling for pass blocking resulted in fewer head injuries? I know how much head and neck contact is experienced in a run-first, smash-mouth offense by the OL, DL and RBs.

[UNT90]

12 hours ago, EagleMBA said:

Just a thought. It would be interesting to see if the number of cases is correlated to the offensive scheme. What if increasing frequency in plays calling for pass blocking resulted in fewer head injuries? I know how much head and neck contact is experienced in a run-first, smash-mouth offense by the OL, DL and RBs.

Antidotal, but Junior Seau would disagree with this theory.

Physics doesn't discriminate between offense and defense.

[UNTLifer]

42 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Antidotal, but Junior Seau would disagree with this theory.

Physics doesn't discriminate between offense and defense.

Junior might agree with my steroid theory, but this will never come out because it never came out if he used or not.

[Dr. Seuss]

On 5/5/2016 at 8:57 AM, UNTLifer said:

Junior might agree with my steroid theory, but this will never come out because it never came out if he used or not.

Again, what about the 18 year old high school student?  Are we going to assume that he took steroids too? Or his he just the unicorn....

[UNTLifer]

Good question. I guess my assumption with Junior is in relation to his suicide. Then again, steroid use has led to bigger, faster athletes which led to bigger, faster collisions and the trend to knock people over instead of tackling them. Kids follow what they see the pros do and many coaches look the other way regarding how players get bigger and stronger.