Rebuilding trust within the North Texas fanbase

[Cerebus]

7 hours ago, Aquila_Viridis said:

That is ABSOLUTELY untrue. All SEC schools are ranked far ahead of NT in US News and Forbes;

Any ranking that measures such metrics as HS guidance counselor opinions is garbage.  Also, most ranking services HIGHLY rate alumni giving, something UNT has failed at for years because of a culture PURPOSELY created by past leadership.

When you look at real academic ratings, like the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education, UNT does very well.   We are an R1: Doctoral University - Highest Research Activity.   Alabama, Auburn and Miss St are classified below us.

[MeanGreenHoops]

I think it's really pretty simple. Athletics was never a priority for the university, and having an engaged alumni base wasn't either until about the last 10 years.

So everyone who went to UNT was forced to either support athletics and be laughed at by others (the minute few here mostly), or don't support it say yeah we suck, I follow Insert T-Shirt School (the vast majority).

With everything in place we are still a joke, and that is what is making the minute few jump off the bridge.

[oldguystudent]

This juxtaposition of athletics and academics amuses me.  I've had some criticisms on UNT admissions and academic policies before and gotten just absolutely hammered for it before.  

First, they are two very different aspects of the same university.  One can be successful without the other.  They are not inherently interdependent.

Overall, UNT ain't Harvard.  It's never gonna be Harvard.  But it is one HELL of a pragmatic option for higher education.  The degrees work.  Graduates from the accounting department have a great reputation.  We hired three of them this spring, and all three are outright superstars.  

Sure, we don't exactly get to hang poster boy t-shirts on our walls, but we kinda run the freaking joint. 

Assuming any one person has been working for a few years and out of university, work experience and performance far supersedes seal on a diploma.  

Take a breath out there, people.  Life's to short to hate everyone and everything.  Step away.  Eat a snickers.

[foutsrouts]

This thread is getting downright depressing. Almost makes me think I graduated from El Centro. A couple of you posters need to stay away from tall buildings and firearms. Don't worry, everything will be okay.  

[Army of Dad]

13 minutes ago, foutsrouts said:

This thread is getting downright depressing. Almost makes me think I graduated from El Centro. A couple of you posters need to stay away from tall buildings and firearms. Don't worry, everything will be okay.  

It's not the thread that's depressing, but the state the program...

[foutsrouts]

9 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

It's not the thread that's depressing, but the state the program...

Yeah, but with the new regime there is at least some cause for optimism. If we get blown out by both smu and The Cookman I'll hop on that train to NT athletic perdition myself. Even though there's not much hope for any significant positive news for a full four months, I think I'll just try and keep my chin up until I see proof that we're going to absolutely suck. Once again. 

[untjim1995]

36 minutes ago, Army of Dad said:

It's not the thread that's depressing, but the state the program...

So true.

Look, the university has achieved its nirvana: educate thousands upon thousands of students, keeping job security in place, while allowing its music and fine arts department to be the primary window to the university. I promise you that to the UNT administration, for every time they hear about an SEC or Big XII school laughing at them because of sports, they laugh back at them because of music and arts. As my Aggie buddy used to say fondly, "If we ever have to play you guys in a marching band or drumline contest, yall are gonna pound us...", which was his way of trying to make the whippings we always take at the hands of the Southern Power Teams more tolerable.

We just do it differently here. You've got UTA who keeps everything but football, but engineering is their main window, you've got UTD who doesn't exist at Division1 so they use academics and technology as their windows, and you've got UTSA, UTEP, and Texas State who play Division 1 in everything and want football or basketball to be the main windows to their school. And then you have us--music and fine arts, as primary window, with cheaper costs in a college town, playing Division1, but not really caring at all if we suck or not, just offering it up ISD style. And then you have SFA and SHSU, two schools that play Division 1 in everything but are FCS instead, yet still use revenue sports as a primary window to their schools. Obviously, there's no reason to even list UT, A&M, Tech, or UH on this list.

This reality is a hard one--as in its hard to accept but also hard and fast in stone here. But once you accept it, you either keep going to games to enjoy interactions with your buddies and watching live sports, you find other ways to support the alma mater thru its plethora of colleges and programs, or you walk away. The administration and BOR doesn't really care which way you decide to go, since they know that thousands upon thousands are about to take your place in the student body enrollment and alumni records.

[UNT90]

1 hour ago, oldguystudent said:

This juxtaposition of athletics and academics amuses me.  I've had some criticisms on UNT admissions and academic policies before and gotten just absolutely hammered for it before.  

First, they are two very different aspects of the same university.  One can be successful without the other.  They are not inherently interdependent.

Overall, UNT ain't Harvard.  It's never gonna be Harvard.  But it is one HELL of a pragmatic option for higher education.  The degrees work.  Graduates from the accounting department have a great reputation.  We hired three of them this spring, and all three are outright superstars.  

Sure, we don't exactly get to hang poster boy t-shirts on our walls, but we kinda run the freaking joint. 

Assuming any one person has been working for a few years and out of university, work experience and performance far supersedes seal on a diploma.  

Take a breath out there, people.  Life's to short to hate everyone and everything.  Step away.  Eat a snickers.

I've never been judged professionally by where I went to college . You are exactly correct. What you have done means far more than the name on a piece of paper, and it should.

[EagleMBA]

43 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I've never been judged professionally by where I went to college . You are exactly correct. What you have done means far more than the name on a piece of paper, and it should.

Agree with that. But somewhere along the line someone opened the door to let you demonstrate that you had the "right stuff"...and that is where the ice gets thin. Suppose the hiring manager is a Whorn or a Maggie looking at resumes. I know that I have given a longer look at UNT resumes when I had the chance to make a fresh hire.

[Christopher Walker]

2 hours ago, Army of Dad said:

It's not the thread that's depressing, but the state the program...

[DeepGreen]

1 hour ago, UNT90 said:

I've never been judged professionally by where I went to college . You are exactly correct. What you have done means far more than the name on a piece of paper, and it should.

Effect the bottom line of the company you work for in a positive way and they could care less where you went to college.

untjim1995 made the following statement: "And then you have us--music and fine arts, as primary window, with cheaper costs in a college town, playing Division1, but not really caring at all if we suck or not, just offering it up ISD style."

ISD style meaning "high school"?  Is that what you meant?

If so, that's what I've been saying for years.  Athletics to UNT means nothing more than providing many students a pathway to a (almost) free education via scholarships.  Winning championships in athletics is not the end result UNT looks for.  If a championship in some sport does happen then it's just icing on the cake.

Edited May 3, 2016 by DeepGreen

[VideoEagle]

3 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Any ranking that measures such metrics as HS guidance counselor opinions is garbage.  Also, most ranking services HIGHLY rate alumni giving, something UNT has failed at for years because of a culture PURPOSELY created by past leadership.

When you look at real academic ratings, like the Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Education, UNT does very well.   We are an R1: Doctoral University - Highest Research Activity.   Alabama, Auburn and Miss St are classified below us.

To add onto Cerebus' post, USNew rankings at one time included average alumni giving, percentage of alumni with current memberships in the alumni association and some measure of the involvement of alumni with their major departments after graduation. All three of those track back to alumni cash donations so it's no wonder we rank low with USNews. Carnegie measures actual academics. 

[untjim1995]

18 minutes ago, DeepGreen said:

Effect the bottom line of the company you work for in a positive way and they could care less where you went to college.

untjim1995 made the following statement: "And then you have us--music and fine arts, as primary window, with cheaper costs in a college town, playing Division1, but not really caring at all if we suck or not, just offering it up ISD style."

ISD style meaning "high school"?  Is that what you meant?

If so, that's what I've been saying for years.  Athletics to UNT means nothing more than providing many students a pathway to a (almost) free education via scholarships.  Winning championships in athletics is not the end result UNT looks for.  If a championship in some sport does happen then it's just icing on the cake.

That's exactly what I mean, Deep...

Rarely have I seen a deeper conundrum than our football program, stuck in between a large majority that loathe it or don't care, but we keep it because a loud minority will pay for it.

[SilverEagle]

9 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

That's exactly what I mean, Deep...

Rarely have I seen a deeper conundrum than our football program, stuck in between a large majority that loathe it or don't care, but we keep it because a loud minority will pay for it.

DeepGreen and I have had a brief discussion about this whilst talking about the basic difference between A$M and North Texas.

So let me hear from everyone on this one. Does North Texas draw the kind of student that is basically disinterested in school spirit/sports, or does the culture as created by Dr. Matthews (sports should be little more than intramural and giving to the University is forbidden) just beat them down and/or suck the life out of them?

In other words does the cheerleader-student-council-rah-rah-get-involved-in-everything-type High School student always try to get into the A$M's of the world and only come to NT because they have no other choice?

[untjim1995]

2 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

DeepGreen and I have had a brief discussion about this whilst talking about the basic difference between A$M and North Texas.

So let me hear from everyone on this one. Does North Texas draw the kind of student that is basically disinterested in school spirit/sports, or does the culture as created by Dr. Matthews (sports should be little more than intramural and giving to the University is forbidden) just beat them down and/or suck the life out of them?

In other words does the cheerleader-student-council-rah-rah-get-involved-in-everything-type High School student always try to get into the A$M's of the world and only come to NT because they have no other choice?

Well, the family legacies at UT and A&M (especially A&M) and their high end academics certainly attract a lot of students who want that "experience" of being a college student. To me, A&M and UNT are polar opposites. One school is cult-like in its traditions and following rules and order. Our school is more the opposite, mostly because our students are often working thru college or this is their first college experience within their family. Obviously, with the music and fine arts windows, you will get some folks who are often more inclined to go somewhere that is counter to popular norms, although Denton today is far more homogenous than its ever been in the previous decades.

To me, the kids who are more rah-rah, be-true-to-your-school types are often seen at A&M and Tech, while UT is just so big and diverse that you see all kinds. UNT, UH, UTEP, UTSA, and Texas State have lots of commuters and first-generation students, so a lot of them just look at the college as the place to get a degree, not to have a true college experience. Sure, music students and art students in Denton are probably enjoying the experience that kids who like sports and school spirit in College Station or Lubbock, but we know that the large majority of UNT alumni leave Denton behind for good when they leave, never to come back for much or never giving $$$ back in any major way.

[TIgreen01]

Lots of drama and bull shizz about culture.

Fire Benford and you get me back.  Probably a lot of people back.  That's the fork in the eye in all of this.  Has been since Alabama-Huntsville.  Had we fired him when we should have, the fan base is likely able to endure Mac's complete meltdown.

It's about taking action. Stop with bull shizz excuses.  Just do it.

Edited May 4, 2016 by TIgreen01

[Mike Jackson]

12 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

Lots of drama and bull shizz about culture.

Fire Benford and you get me back.  Probably a lot of people back.  That's the fork in the eye in all of this.  Has been since Alabama-Huntsville.  Had we fired him when we should have, the fan base is likely able to endure Mac's complete meltdown.

It's about taking action. Stop with bull shizz excuses.  Just do it.

They don't care which is why they don't do it.  Speaking as first generation college graduate (like many from UNT) we know from life experience that talk about transforming is very cheap.   Which is why most graduates that fit my profile don't give crap about athletics cause it very evident they don't care.  Transforming yourself or an organization is hard work and the most important thing to that process is commitment.  They lack commitment and that is why RV is still employed and none of the other things you mentioned happen the way they should have.  I can forgive any organization I am associated with (personal or professional) for a lot of things but lack of commitment is not one of those things.  Young graduates don't have the time or money for half-ass commitment and there are way too many other sports entertainment options in DFW area to waste time or money on anything half-ass.  As idiotic as some of the decisions the Cowboys, Rangers, Mavericks and Stars have made over the years you rarely doubt that they are trying to win championships. (Hell they may even take a year or 3 to rebuild but it all in pursuit of a championship). UNT is not going to win a NCAA championship in a revenue sport but they sure as hell should be aspiring to win a conference title every year at the G5 level in one of the revenue sports.

[UNT90]

42 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

Lots of drama and bull shizz about culture.

Fire Benford and you get me back.  Probably a lot of people back.  That's the fork in the eye in all of this.  Has been since Alabama-Huntsville.  Had we fired him when we should have, the fan base is likely able to endure Mac's complete meltdown.

It's about taking action. Stop with bull shizz excuses.  Just do it.

A lot of fans won't come back until the Hattiesburg Hustler has completed his hustle at UNT. 

Who knows when that will be...

[foutsrouts]

6 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

To me, the kids who are more rah-rah, be-true-to-your-school types are often seen at A&M and Tech, while UT is just so big and diverse that you see all kinds. UNT, UH, UTEP, UTSA, and Texas State have lots of commuters and first-generation students, so a lot of them just look at the college as the place to get a degree, not to have a true college experience. Sure, music students and art students in Denton are probably enjoying the experience that kids who like sports and school spirit in College Station or Lubbock, but we know that the large majority of UNT alumni leave Denton behind for good when they leave, never to come back for much or never giving $$$ back in any major way.

Being located in the middle of nowhere is often key to the rah-rah mentality. That's one of the reasons that you see so much rah-rah in conferences like the SEC. With the exception of private Vanderbilt, they're mostly located in smaller towns away from the big city. Well, A&M is getting Houston encroachment, but they're still out there as College Station Aggies. As we all know, winning big is the only way that we can seriously increase our rah-rah factor in what is now a very suburban Denton. 

[Aquila_Viridis]

'Academics' is probably not the right word for the main rankings by which universities are compared, for people who are considering what college to attend. Those rankings consider many factors, and not the sports success of course. It is clear that they strongly agree with each other that NT is not a good choice for an outstanding student overall, though they do not consider the specific esoteric program where NT excels, for a very small number of students.  Improving sports is not the only way in which NT needs to make fundamental changes. I completely disagree with the idea that NT is carrying out its rightful role.  The population of the North Texas region is almost as much as the entire state of Virginia. The North Texas region deserves a GREAT public university. Any politician or administrator that has other ideas needs to move to another place.

Unfortunately, NT's abysmal showing in these important (If you don't see this you have your head WAY in the sand.) rankings could be NT's way of mocking the rankings.  Maybe we should change the mascot to a mockingbird!  Chattanooga did it.

The people of your mighty region should be ashamed that a poor little place like Memphis is kicking your ass when it comes to college sports. No they are probably not going to get in the Big 12 after the expansion news, but can sure make a much, much better case for it.

[Aquila_Viridis]

I don't know if this link will work but it is the publication that UMemphis made as part of their Big 12 push. I hope the link works. This is what a serious athletic department is doing to promote their program and build their connection with the region they represent. If you don't think they are serious, they hired TT's basketball coach away. Could you imagine NT doing something like that?  Note that UM's full time undergraduate population is about 10,000 students less than NT. Shame.

Here is a URL anyway:

https://issuu.com/univofmemphis/docs/50576_athletics_viewbook?e=0/35346973

 

[Mike Jackson]

On May 4, 2016 at 9:42 PM, UNT90 said:

A lot of fans won't come back until the Hattiesburg Hustler has completed his hustle at UNT. 

Who knows when that will be...

And it's more than RV leaving, it is how he leaves.  If he leaves at the end of contract with the word 'retirement' thrown around, I sure as hell am not coming back without some unprecedented winning.  RV leaving at the end of the contract mean nothing has change when it comes to the structure/culture of the athletic department.  And I take offense to calling him the Hattiesburg Hustler.  I am sure real hustlers would take offense at RV being given that title.  RV is like the Wizard Oz operating his illusion machine behind a transparent curtain.  If an alum for another school on UNT's level with a decent program ask you why is this guy still employed, what rational reason could you offer? While it is embarrassing for you school to get killed on the field regular it far more embarrassing to answer the question: Why?

[UNT90]

9 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

And it's more than RV leaving, it is how he leaves.  If he leaves at the end of contract with the word 'retirement' thrown around, I sure as hell am not coming back without some unprecedented winning.  RV leaving at the end of the contract mean nothing has change when it comes to the structure/culture of the athletic department.  And I take offense to calling him the Hattiesburg Hustler.  I am sure real hustlers would take offense at RV being given that title.  RV is like the Wizard Oz operating his illusion machine behind a transparent curtain.  If an alum for another school on UNT's level with a decent program ask you why is this guy still employed, what rational reason could you offer? While it is embarrassing for you school to get killed on the field regular it far more embarrassing to answer the question: Why?

I have been asked this very question several times by alums from other schools who know I go to games and have seen our performance. They just shake their head when I answer "UNT doesn't care about athletics." 

We are the laughing stock of Texas colleges when it comes to athletics, and one of the biggest reasons is that the Hattiesburg Hustler is still collecting a check.

A hustle is a confidence game. A confidence game is convincing people that fantasy is reality through personal manipulation. That is exactly the scam Rick Villarreal  has ran at UNT for years. So yes, "hustler" is appropriate. As is Hattiesburg, considering his loyalty to USM runs much deeper than any loyalty to anything UNT, and his giving to each university's athletic program demonstrate such.

Edited May 5, 2016 by UNT90

[untjim1995]

15 hours ago, Mike Jackson said:

And it's more than RV leaving, it is how he leaves.  If he leaves at the end of contract with the word 'retirement' thrown around, I sure as hell am not coming back without some unprecedented winning.  RV leaving at the end of the contract mean nothing has change when it comes to the structure/culture of the athletic department.  And I take offense to calling him the Hattiesburg Hustler.  I am sure real hustlers would take offense at RV being given that title.  RV is like the Wizard Oz operating his illusion machine behind a transparent curtain.  If an alum for another school on UNT's level with a decent program ask you why is this guy still employed, what rational reason could you offer? While it is embarrassing for you school to get killed on the field regular it far more embarrassing to answer the question: Why?

You are really gonna love it when the university renames the athletic department the "Rick Villareal Athletic Complex" after he retires, which coincidentally won't be when the current contract runs out. He's gonna get an extension, either by extending Bumford or because the UNT17 will make sure he gets to stay to run their pet project that they bought from the BOR.

RV ain't going anywhere, anytime soon--as in 5-10 more years...AT LEAST.

[MeanGreenTexan]

31 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

You are really gonna love it when the university renames the athletic department the "Rick Villareal Athletic Complex" after he retires, which coincidentally won't be when the current contract runs out. He's gonna get an extension, either by extending Bumford or because the UNT17 will make sure he gets to stay to run their pet project that they bought from the BOR.

RV ain't going anywhere, anytime soon--as in 5-10 more years...AT LEAST.

I disagree.