An honest question for the Vito anti-Shanbour folks

[Cr1028]

I get that some of you like a big body for a quarterback, so did McCarney and we know how that worked out. My question to you is if Shanbour is too small to ever be anything better than a backup, then why in the wide, wide, world of sports would you give Mason Fine a scholarship to play quarterback when the thickest he'll ever hope to get is Shanbour's size?

Edited April 26, 2016 by Cr1028

[UNT90]

What's funny is people arguing about 2 complete unknowns. 

[Ben Gooding]

15 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

What's funny is people arguing about 2 complete unknowns. 

Yeah, like Christians and atheists. Eventually you have to choose a side and roll. 

[Aldo]

Shanbour's not small. At nearly 200lbs he's got size. He may not be tall but there's ways around that.

[MGNation92]

I see it as Morris is only here for this year. Shanbour is here for the next two. Why not start Shanbour, let him grow in the system, that way we have an established starter going into the 2017 season? I don't think Morris/Shanbour will be the difference between 2-10 and 7-5, so why not let the guy who will be here next year have growing pains so he can better adjust for next year? Morris guarantees we hit the reset button at the most important position on the field two years in a row. Look at what smut did with Matt Davis, he grew as the year went on, made some plays with his legs, and now is firmly entrenched for this year. 

[Travis]

Just play the best one. I trust the coaches to make that decision right now. 

[SilverEagle]

8 minutes ago, Travis said:

Just play the best one. I trust the coaches to make that decision right now. 

This has always been my stance. Only I would have said "just play the one who can get the job done".  

Of course, the obvious next comment from 90 would be "how do we know that when we don't even know if our current coaching staff can "get the job done".

 

[UNT90]

48 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Yeah, like Christians and atheists. Eventually you have to choose a side and roll. 

I'll pick a side after SMU, and then I may change my side if Shanbour also can't produce on the field (working under the assumption that Shanbour replaces Morris because of inaffectiveness and then proves to be ineffective himself. 2015 anyone?).

[Cr1028]

9 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

I'll pick a side after SMU, and then I may change my side if Shanbour also can't produce on the field (working under the assumption that Shanbour replaces Morris because of inaffectiveness and then proves to be ineffective himself. 2015 anyone?).

Just say every year since DT left and you can cover your bases.

[Aldo]

Ok here is why I give the edge to Morris at this time. This has nothing to do about who will win more games, or who is better, or who has more experience. Nothing to do with size. I'm ok running Fine out there at 180 *if* he can play. Cause we don't know. This is about ability and what I've seen only in practice.

Shanbour's got game in the intermediate range, and can pick a zone apart. Morris is on par, but has better placement, but I need to see more of Shanbour to be certain. Their throws are different, but they get the job done.

Shanbour also has the added dimension in the run game. Morris has suddenness and works the pocket very well to extend a play, but can only run in a straight line and is not as quick or fast. Morris can throw on the run (to the right) with good form. Shanbour has shown he has that ability.

Morris has more anticipation on comeback routes, and 1-on-1 matchups. He does, however, misread the 1-on-1 too quickly sometimes and bails. Needs to trust his receivers more and sling it. Shanbour is more of a gunslinger (I like gunslingers).

I need to see more from Shanbour in the deep range (Morris has better touch and placement on the outside), and I need to see way better accuracy and touch from Shanbour in the short range.

We are going to be passing to our backs out of the backfield plenty, and to TEs out of wheel routes/flats (there are other h-back routes, but i'm talking short range stuff). RBs and TEs were having to make adjustments to Shanbour's passes, losing momentum or dropping the pass. He has to improve this facet due to the fact that it is apparent that we will need him to execute this many times a game. Morris is better than him in this phase of the game.

In the end I need to see more out of Shanbour outside the hashes, work the pocket more and step up, and I need to see him improve passes over the RBs shoulder.

If we go Shanbour, or if we go Morris, playcalling will be different. Shanbour had several designed runs called up for him. I think Morris had 0. The willingness for coaches to dial up plays based on their players' respective abilities excites me.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Aldo

[Cr1028]

3 minutes ago, Aldo said:

If we go Shanbour, or if we go Morris, playcalling will be different. Shanbour had several designed runs called up for him. I think Morris had 0. The willingness for coaches to dial up plays based on their players' respective abilities excites me.

Agreed. Also, it appeared to me that Morris might be just a step faster the Greer was, which makes me nervous but if he can get the ball out quickly (like a Peyton Manning did), the speed won't matter.

[drex]

Any way you look at it we have improved at the quarterback position.

[untjim1995]

Just now, drex said:

Any way you look at it we have improved at the quarterback position.

I agree. We got rid of QBs who proved they couldn't play at this level, Maybe Morris and Shanbour will prove the same, but we don't know. We do know that Connor Means couldn't beat out any of the two worst QBs I have ever seen in a UNT game, Greer and McNulty, or Damarcus Smith, who wasn't very good, either, but mostly because he didn't put in the work necessary to be good despite having the physical tools to be a decent QB.

Morris and Shanbour, with this offensive scheme, should move the sticks. But to not fear the real possibility of an injury to either of them, with this style of play and an OL that is having to learn this scheme now, is just burying your head in the sand. We just gotta pray that they stay healthy and can move the ball for points. Otherwise, its very, very possible that a duplication of Dodge's first few years could be a reality. Better coaches with more experience should help, but we have very little talent and size. Without either of them, its gonna be a hard season to watch, especially if the QBs get Vizza'd over and over.

[Cr1028]

3 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

especially if the QBs get Vizza'd over and over.

You mean blitzed? 

[North Texas Shep]

6 hours ago, Travis said:

Just play the best one. I trust the coaches to make that decision right now. 

Yep and yep. Give these coaches a chance to make a good choice. Most of them haven't been here long, same can be said for this offense and Morris, himself. Let's not assume Littrell will do the same shit as Mac.

[MeanGreen_MBA]

5 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

I agree. We got rid of QBs who proved they couldn't play at this level, Maybe Morris and Shanbour will prove the same, but we don't know. We do know that Connor Means couldn't beat out any of the two worst QBs I have ever seen in a UNT game, Greer and McNulty, or Damarcus Smith, who wasn't very good, either, but mostly because he didn't put in the work necessary to be good despite having the physical tools to be a decent QB.

Morris and Shanbour, with this offensive scheme, should move the sticks. But to not fear the real possibility of an injury to either of them, with this style of play and an OL that is having to learn this scheme now, is just burying your head in the sand. We just gotta pray that they stay healthy and can move the ball for points. Otherwise, its very, very possible that a duplication of Dodge's first few years could be a reality. Better coaches with more experience should help, but we have very little talent and size. Without either of them, its gonna be a hard season to watch, especially if the QBs get Vizza'd over and over.

the sad thing about Means is, if you watch him in the QB drills, he is the most accurate passer we have by far....in drills  Get him in the action on the field, and he loses his accuracy.  if they could get him enough snaps to get used to people flying all around him, he could very well be a very good QB.  We have the chicken and egg QB scenario here.  I would love to see him figure it out.  He has the size, and can hit a bulls eye at 30 yards.....as long as it is in drills

[Mean Green 93-98]

20 minutes ago, MeanGreen_MBA said:

the sad thing about Means is, if you watch him in the QB drills, he is the most accurate passer we have by far....in drills  Get him in the action on the field, and he loses his accuracy.  if they could get him enough snaps to get used to people flying all around him, he could very well be a very good QB.  We have the chicken and egg QB scenario here.  I would love to see him figure it out.  He has the size, and can hit a bulls eye at 30 yards.....as long as it is in drills

Hmmm . . . in the drills I've seen him perform (via various Internet media, never in person), he hasn't looked that sharp to me.  But I was impressed with his high school highlight tape.

[MeanGreen_MBA]

2 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Hmmm . . . in the drills I've seen him perform (via various Internet media, never in person), he hasn't looked that sharp to me.  But I was impressed with his high school highlight tape.

I went out to a couple of practices live this year.....he can throw the ball....in drills.  Put him in live action....and he looks like me in HS....

[Cerebus]

This is a new staff and I am fine with whoever they pick to start.  

My real concern was last year, when Morris wasn't on the roster.  I don't know how Shanbour didn't deserve at least a shot after we saw what we had.  

[Paulie Walnuts]

We're going to need them both. I think it will come down to decision making and avoiding mistakes more than all these physical nuances as to who the starter is. 

[greenminer]

12 hours ago, Travis said:

Just play the best one. I trust the coaches to make that decision right now. 

Bullshit.  We need 6 more QB threads, then we'll have this figured out.

[UNT90]

13 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

I get that some of you like a big body for a quarterback, so did McCarney and we know how that worked out. My question to you is if Shanbour is too small to ever be anything better than a backup, then why in the wide, wide, world of sports would you give Mason Fine a scholarship to play quarterback when the thickest he'll ever hope to get is Shanbour's size?

Great point.

Will Vito be anti-Fine? Is a 3A Oklahoma small high school program the equivalent of P5 Alabama? What if Fine wins the job as a true Freshman? 

I think we all can agree that (from what I hear and the stats I read) there was no overwhelming performance at the Spring game that made anyone go "that's our #1." Why wouldn't Fine be allowed to compete in the Spring. And what will Vito's opinion be of a single offer QB that would have never been recruited by DMac and wasn't recruited by Alabama or any other P5 or G5. Just little ole UNT? 

I think fall will be quite interesting...

12 hours ago, Travis said:

Just play the best one. I trust the coaches to make that decision right now. 

Trusting Rick Villarreal hires hasn't shown to be the best policy.

Just sayin...

16 minutes ago, greenminer said:

Bullshit.  We need 6 more QB threads, then we'll have this figured out.

And you guys accuse me of being repetitive...

[GrandGreen]

Crazy debate based as far as I can tell very little evidence either way.  Talking about an Alabama QB that was only 3rd string as a negative, when you are trying to promote a walk-on doesn't make a whole of sense.

I have seen neither one play other than the spring scrimmage and frankly any analysis based on that is so limited as to be worthless.    Obviously they had Shanbour running the ball and he appears good at it.    Morris threw a couple of bad passes that got intercepted.  Morris also had some pretty impressive long passes and appears to possess the much better arm.   Taking into consideration that Shanbour was going against the second team and could not be hit, his game especially the running is less impressive. 

Nether QB has proven anything at this point, and I wonder about those that are sure these guys are better than the QB's of the last two years.  Yes, odds are they would almost have to be, but no one knows that for sure at this point.  

It is unusual that many fans want a new QB before anyone has really been chosen.   

[UNT90]

21 hours ago, Aldo said:

Ok here is why I give the edge to Morris at this time. This has nothing to do about who will win more games, or who is better, or who has more experience. Nothing to do with size. I'm ok running Fine out there at 180 *if* he can play. Cause we don't know. This is about ability and what I've seen only in practice.

Shanbour's got game in the intermediate range, and can pick a zone apart. Morris is on par, but has better placement, but I need to see more of Shanbour to be certain. Their throws are different, but they get the job done.

Shanbour also has the added dimension in the run game. Morris has suddenness and works the pocket very well to extend a play, but can only run in a straight line and is not as quick or fast. Morris can throw on the run (to the right) with good form. Shanbour has shown he has that ability.

Morris has more anticipation on comeback routes, and 1-on-1 matchups. He does, however, misread the 1-on-1 too quickly sometimes and bails. Needs to trust his receivers more and sling it. Shanbour is more of a gunslinger (I like gunslingers).

I need to see more from Shanbour in the deep range (Morris has better touch and placement on the outside), and I need to see way better accuracy and touch from Shanbour in the short range.

We are going to be passing to our backs out of the backfield plenty, and to TEs out of wheel routes/flats (there are other h-back routes, but i'm talking short range stuff). RBs and TEs were having to make adjustments to Shanbour's passes, losing momentum or dropping the pass. He has to improve this facet due to the fact that it is apparent that we will need him to execute this many times a game. Morris is better than him in this phase of the game.

In the end I need to see more out of Shanbour outside the hashes, work the pocket more and step up, and I need to see him improve passes over the RBs shoulder.

If we go Shanbour, or if we go Morris, playcalling will be different. Shanbour had several designed runs called up for him. I think Morris had 0. The willingness for coaches to dial up plays based on their players' respective abilities excites me.

Odds are you will get to see both on live action play in September or October.

8 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Crazy debate based as far as I can tell very little evidence either way.  Talking about an Alabama QB that was only 3rd string as a negative, when you are trying to promote a walk-on doesn't make a whole of sense.

I have seen neither one play other than the spring scrimmage and frankly any analysis based on that is so limited as to be worthless. 

Nether QB has proven anything at this point, and I wonder about those that are sure these guys are better than the QB's of the last year.  

No one is saying 3rd team at Bama is a negative, it's just not a positive, especially when a true (?)  freshman beats you out for the #2 spot. Vito's point #1 was complete lunacy, which I'm sure he knows and he is just trying to stir the off-season pot. 

We are in complete agreement on the second paragraph above. That's what I've been saying all along. 

And I completely agree with paragraph #3 and think that is a distinct possibility. If that occurs, it will be interesting to see if Littrell stubbornly hangs in with Morris as starter, a la Mac/McNulty. If so, maybe the 17 will buy out the remaining 4 years of his contract to get their way again. ?

[Wag Tag]

23 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

I see it as Morris is only here for this year. Shanbour is here for the next two. Why not start Shanbour, let him grow in the system, that way we have an established starter going into the 2017 season? I don't think Morris/Shanbour will be the difference between 2-10 and 7-5, so why not let the guy who will be here next year have growing pains so he can better adjust for next year? Morris guarantees we hit the reset button at the most important position on the field two years in a row. Look at what smut did with Matt Davis, he grew as the year went on, made some plays with his legs, and now is firmly entrenched for this year. 

Win now!